[Courage Reborn]

Grab a beer. I'm going to approach this topic philosophically;

Let's assume for arguments sake, that dating leagues do exist.

This means that there are some people who don't have a realistic chance of ever being romantically interesting to someone who displays or possess certain traits above a relative threshold of perceived value.

Lane switching can occur, but in a world where dating leagues exist, the law of leagues dictates that people are regulated to their current lane at this moment in time.

League World Example: Tyler the Creator will not be able to fuck Taylor Swift, no matter how hard he tries. "She's out of his league". He's even rapped the idea of it as a joke.


Now let's say leagues don't exist.

It's all in your head. Game is the great equalizer, and with the right setup, environment, persistence, and moment, just about anyone can be made to fall for a man/woman on a mission. Assuming he/she's not hideous or obese, anyone can be had through enough effort.

Non-League World: Tyler & Taylor get introduced at an LA party. He does everything right, and they start dating. This is just a fantasy example, but stranger things have happened.


"dude. she's out of your league."

This statement has never sat well with me. It's uttered to destroy ambition. As a control tactic to reinforce the speakers own defeatist blue pill values & worldview.

Yet, plenty of hamsters, male and female alike, are delusional when it comes to what they want & expect when it comes to dating.


Help me get my head around this contradiction gents.

[Vitriol]

One word reply:

No.

[Pride male]

The sexual market place does really exist.

[Akula]

I don't think a person can necessarily game every single girl out there effectively all the time and always be "on", or marry a Zulu princess or British royalty or whatever if that's their endgame, but I think game gives you a much bigger pool of targets to pull from across the board and gets you involved in a lot more "leagues".

It's also really, really situational in my opinion. By that I mean the "Leagues" change a ton as the years go by and you get older and/or more experienced. Some even go away of course while others pop up. And you'll inevitably get a girl who might be in a different league than you but wants to explore and you can catch them at the right time.

I guess a big part of me wants to say that almost every girl is 'gamable' at some point in her life, especially this day and age. Maybe that is what you are getting at. Sometimes you just need to be at the right place or right time and have decent enough skills to do it. Or just be 'hanging around the hoop' enough to create your own luck. Maybe both. I would say that many girls, say 30-40-50%, just won't ever get with a particular guy for one reason or another though at a particular time in their lives. But for me I could care less as that still leaves such a huge pool.

Anyway, I also hate that whole "She's outta your league" thing. Strikes me as something most man would never have said or thought back in the day in the 50s or earlier when men were men and women were women.

[Clemmo]

If Tyler the Creator had a higher status than he currently does right now. Then Taylor Swift would easily be in his league. Taylor Swift is typically with high status men like Jake Gylenthall, Harry Styles from One Direction, or John Mayer

Just look at men like Lil Wayne and Wiz Khalifa. If they were a broke dude on the street. Most women wouldn't give them a second look.

But these guys regularly pull 8's and up because of their celebrity status.

[MY DETROIT PLAYAS]

Statements like this are based on external factors; appearance, social status, education

If you thing about it - all those things can be manipulated or changed to work in your favor.

Appearance - cosmetically
Social status - monetarily
education - achieving in the classroom

In this way - attraction is a tangible thing to be altered

If we believed otherwise the RVF community would not exist

Titles and trophies are societies way of separating people and assigning worth, nothing more

If you placed them on a deserted island, Tyler would be bending precious little Taylor over against a coconut tree - biologically he is still a man and she is still a woman

[Saladin]

(12-20-2014 12:29 AM)Courage Reborn Wrote:  

"dude. she's out of your league."

This statement has never sat well with me. It's uttered to destroy ambition. As a control tactic to reinforce the speakers own defeatist blue pill values & worldview.

Yet, plenty of hamsters, male and female alike, are delusional when it comes to what they want & expect when it comes to dating.

Agreed I dislike it when people say "she's out of my league."

A man should never ever think that thought. It's self defeating and the hallmark of a beta when he says that about a girl.

[Vitriol]

(12-20-2014 01:11 AM)Saladin Wrote:  

(12-20-2014 12:29 AM)Courage Reborn Wrote:  

"dude. she's out of your league."

This statement has never sat well with me. It's uttered to destroy ambition. As a control tactic to reinforce the speakers own defeatist blue pill values & worldview.

Yet, plenty of hamsters, male and female alike, are delusional when it comes to what they want & expect when it comes to dating.

Agreed I dislike it when people say "she's out of my league."

A man should never ever think that thought. It's self defeating and the hallmark of a beta when he says that about a girl.

I think the origin of that phrase is American romantic comedy movies. It's total bullshit.

There's a difference between thinking you can get any individual girl you set your sights on (obviously won't happen if she's not attracted to you), versus thinking no girl above a certain threshold level of attractiveness will ever fuck you (which is totally untrue and self-defeating). This is more social conditioning to get men in places like the U.S. to think they should settle for a whale single mother they met on OK Cupid. I don't think I've ever heard non Americans bring this "league" shit up.

[Deluge]

Does an obese, runners and jeans wearing neckbeard have a shot at fucking a Victoria's Secret model? Theoretically it's possible but we all know that ain't gonna happen.

Now imagine the same dude over a number of years he learns game, fixes his grooming, develops an Adonis physique, builds a killer wardrobe and starts hanging out it in top tier venues. He probably still won't be able to fuck Adriana Lima but you know he'll be running through his share of 8+ hotties.

[Sebastian]

It's Kind of pointless to talk about 'oh well if I work on a lot of things, I can bang 9+'

We ALL will be a millionaire in the future at some point right? lol So it's better to talk about NOW.

Usually guys like to aim higher and don't like to hear the 'League'
they say 'you can sort people into leagues'
But when they see a girl 'below their league'. They exactly know where she belongs.

Think of a fat girl who thinks she has a shot with a decent bachelor because there is no league.
We all know it's delusional but she can ignore all comments and keep going after him because she doesn't have 'self limiting beliefs'

[OGNorCal707]

(12-20-2014 12:52 AM)Clemmo Wrote:  

Just look at men like Lil Wayne and Wiz Khalifa. If they were a broke dude on the street. Most women wouldn't give them a second look.

But these guys regularly pull 8's and up because of their celebrity status.

LOL, you're just reminding me of a podcast where Tariq Nasheed said that Lil Wayne looks like a Jamaican cockroach.

[OGNorCal707]

I think sometimes guys straight up get lucky and "date up" with a woman substantially better looking than them, but usually game or social status will help you pull one point, maybe two points above your relative looks on the scale. In other words if you're objectively a 6, with game or status you can pull a 7 or maybe an 8 at the very best. Obviously there will be guys like Lil Wayne who may be considered a 5, but he's pulling 9's, etc., that said the fact that he's very rich and famous is a great equalizer. I highly doubt he'd be pulling 9's without wealth and fame, even if his game was A+ and knocks it out the park.

The truth is if you look at threads like the "Sexodous" it seems like it's pretty unanimous that the "sexual marketplace" is increasingly being stacked against men. It's gotten to the point where a lot of guys are happy to date a woman equal in looks, and a lot of guys are dating or fucking "down" and banging chicks that are less than them. Women don't use the 1-10 scale as much as men, but it's becoming more prevalent, I often here women saying oh "he's like an 8, or he would be a 10 if he was a few inches taller".

Sure shoot for the stars guys, don't let a negative jaded prick like me hold you down, but reality is reality for a reason. The PUA industry and die hard "game guys" will bang the drums and chant the mantra of "game, game, game", but in reality good luck pulling 8's if women only rate you as a 6.

For the guys talking self improvement, I agree, but check back with me in 5 years after you've been going to the gym 4 days a week every week, and let me know how much your pussy has improved.

[Capitán Peligroso]

As is often the case, Shawshank Redemption is relevant to what we're trying to do here:

"There are places in the world that aren't made out of stone. There's something inside that they can't get to that they can't touch... that's yours."

"What are you talking about?"

"Hope." (inner game)

You can either buy "she's out of your league..." or not. That's my take.

[Pride male]

Not really. Rasputin fucked a Russian queen. Kevin Federline fucked Britney Spears. Charles Manson fucked cheer leaders. That camera dude fucked Julia Roberts. Seal fucked Heidi Klum. That book White Masai is about an African illterate tribesmen fucking a white girl. So many guys punch above their weight because its all in the mind.

Irrational overconfidence is the heart of game.

[dads]

Baseball is the analogy for life, and like there are leagues in baseball, there are in life. A Single-A guy is never going to consistently make contact on Major League pitching, but he can definetely do his own solid numbers in Single-A. Obviously once in a while, that guy is going to get to the bigs and hit a grand slam, but those are few and FAR between. Talent will generally have you to in the Bigs real quick, (Mike Trout, Bryce Harper) but hard work and dedication can get you there too.

[Sourcecode]

I don't think there are dating leagues to say.
I think there are dating classes/stock.

At least in America more than anywhere I've gone in Europe.


People are either raised a certain way or perceive themselves a certain way.

Swift might meet Tyler and they smash at a house party. But they will probably never be seen embracing each other.
No matter their current worth. They come from different classes , different stock. The social structures keep them apart in the end.

I've smashed Sec and sorority girls the "cream"of colleges, after they sneak me into the dorm.or while they are on vacation... Only to smirk when they don't want to be seen alone with me in public. Or they pretend they don't know me very well when their"people"come along
I understand the game. They perceive their class or stock as radically different from mine. Even if my worth might be higher
I will most likely never date them..They were raised different.

I've been with rich women in different countries and found unless they were some sort of semi royalty or something, they were much more relaxed about dating. But they still admit their parents would still be against it in some ways.

Rappers entertainers,and sports players still associate and impregnate trashy low class girls.
Even though she might be dirty poor and he is a multimillionaire.
They are still from the same stock.
Money doesn't equate to class or stock.




Of course, every now an then..Someone breaks the mold and branches into a different class or stock. But more often than not..People stay with their own.
I'm not talking about race here either...

I think a argument couple be made that people can work hard and move up in social classes, or wealth classes all the time.
But I say, they still date in their same area..it's just that everyone else has moved up around then also

Duck dynasty family still isn't gonna be going to premier's with Taylor swift.
They still are from two different stocks(perceived)
They will probably stick to don't country family with money

I'm also not saying anyone should take this as a concrete limit.
With good game an exposure.You can still break into different areas anddo well. But realistically while you can game, fuck, mini relationship and date some of them for a time.You probably won't move into having kids with them if you are complete opposite caste

Look at Jay electronica. He is one of the few that moved up.And was smashing a totally But... recently..Even he eventually got dropped back down. By the family. Of course the media will say it was a simple break up..He never had a chance to have kids with Kate.
The family allowed her to fuck around for a bit, because she already had kids with someone of her stock, so there wasn't a stress for future heirs
But Jay was never gonna be truly brought into the Rothschild family.
A while back i was smashing a lady with hundreds of millions(she was batshit crazy and I dropped her), her family was taking private island trips. Etc ect
Even if the family liked me. And didn't have a problem with their girl fucking around.I could see that I never would fit into that class. I would never be completely welcomed with those people like that.

[Kieran]

I've been fucking girls that were supposedly out of my league since I was a teenager (and plenty below it too), and so no I don't believe they exist. Objectively speaking, of course there's things that can make it appear as if there are leagues, but it's really all in the mind and you have to believe you're in a league of your own. I 100% believe I could be broke, lose a leg, lose an eye etc. and I'll still fuck good looking girls because it's my mind and my determination that gets me laid. Put me in a wheelchair and I will still find a way because that's my mindset.

Regarding sourcecode's post above, I tend to agree in general about the dating thing (although there are many exceptions). But these girls can definitely be fucked. I've been around old money at times through my social circle, and it's easy to get drawn in to their standards and feel the weight of it all making you insecure, but it really is in the mind and you can flip the script around on them. Access is the only significant problem.

[robreke]

Some would have said K-Fed was out of Britney Spear's league. Also...I've seen news blurbs about Jennifer Lopez ( back in the day when she was hotter ) hooking up with random dancers from her band. These women were out of these guy's "leagues".

It's all about gina tingles and getting it wet and opportunity. A woman will act on these if a man knows what he's doing.

[Sourcecode]

KFed wasnt dating out of his league.
Brittany is from a poor broken,possibly abusive home.
That family was always a little trashy.
She just happen to hit it big...but old habits die hard.
both of them would probably be banging in a car having kids and working at a fast food restaurant together if it wasnt for her being picked up by Disney.
Look how crazy she is...Look how messed up he is.
They are still from the same stock.

[Saladin]

(12-20-2014 03:57 AM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

I think sometimes guys straight up get lucky and "date up" with a woman substantially better looking than them, but usually game or social status will help you pull one point, maybe two points above your relative looks on the scale. In other words if you're objectively a 6, with game or status you can pull a 7 or maybe an 8 at the very best. Obviously there will be guys like Lil Wayne who may be considered a 5, but he's pulling 9's, etc., that said the fact that he's very rich and famous is a great equalizer. I highly doubt he'd be pulling 9's without wealth and fame, even if his game was A+ and knocks it out the park.

The truth is if you look at threads like the "Sexodous" it seems like it's pretty unanimous that the "sexual marketplace" is increasingly being stacked against men. It's gotten to the point where a lot of guys are happy to date a woman equal in looks, and a lot of guys are dating or fucking "down" and banging chicks that are less than them. Women don't use the 1-10 scale as much as men, but it's becoming more prevalent, I often here women saying oh "he's like an 8, or he would be a 10 if he was a few inches taller".

Sure shoot for the stars guys, don't let a negative jaded prick like me hold you down, but reality is reality for a reason. The PUA industry and die hard "game guys" will bang the drums and chant the mantra of "game, game, game", but in reality good luck pulling 8's if women only rate you as a 6.

For the guys talking self improvement, I agree, but check back with me in 5 years after you've been going to the gym 4 days a week every week, and let me know how much your pussy has improved.

I think if you're a cool dude with game then its a matter of access to hot women.

Naughty Nomad fucked Miss Dominican Republic... because they were in the same bar. Didn't he say he was 5"7 or 5"8 or something?

Also, it's really hard to quantify what you are on the 1-10 scale. What's a guy like Krauser on the scale, who fucks much younger and hotter girls than himself?

Plus girls have differing standards. One girl may think you're a 6 while another may think you're a 8. So you could have huge variance in the quality of girls that respond to you so believing that only a certain quality of girl will respond to you will only fuck you over. Better to just be overconfident and a bit delusional.

It's obviously extremely unrealistic to be expecting to fuck 10s all day.... but I think if you are a fit and cool dude with game, you can do really well with women.

Obviously there are limits, you won't see super short dudes killing it with hotties, unless they find themselves a niche or build tons of social status for themselves. But for the average guy, a few years of self improvement and game work will lead them to bang girls they would never dream of realistically banging.

[General Mayhem]

You could use other words and think of it differently.

"League" can mean a lot of different things in terms of dating. As far as sex goes I think it's pretty much a free for all.

Sex is a primal thing. Weird shit happens. Tyler and Taylor could bang, just like you could bang an ugly broad on a fucked up night of drinks, drugs and debauchery. Shit happens.

Dating is more of a social construct. Girls have types whether you like it or not. They might sway right or left a little, but it will always revolve around the center.

Value also comes into play as others have already mentioned, especially when it comes to people with a lot of value.

Taylor Swift would be stupid to mix genes with anyone below her stock. You wouldn't do it either.

Leagues are very real. An 8 isn't always an 8.

You have 8s who are broke living in a trailer park, and you have 8s who are members of high society. Each is in a different league. There are plenty of guys who could date the former, but few that could date the latter.

Most of us aren't celebrities or members of high society, so yeah, most girls you meet won't necessarily be out of your league, but Taylor Swift definitely is.

[Parlay44]

You guys are overthinking it. If you like her then approach. You'll never score if you don't step up to the plate and take a swing. I've gotten girls from being straight up ballsy and stepping to them. They love that shit. You get blown out sometimes. It's all about how well you handle rejection. Maybe she blew you out but her friend got turned on by watching you kick it to her friend. It happens.

[Courage Reborn]

(12-20-2014 08:15 AM)Sourcecode Wrote:  

I don't think there are dating leagues to say.
I think there are dating classes/stock.

(12-20-2014 03:40 PM)General Mayhem Wrote:  

Dating is more of a social construct.

Yes, I think you guys are onto something with that.

People from different social classes can get together for a fling, but rarely present a formal relationship to the rest of the world.

The act of making a public declaration of relationship status/title, ie. boyfriend/girlfriend/engagement/wedding primarily serves as social proof for the declarers, and trickles out to friends & family members.

Parties from both sides have a vested interest in the significant others' perceived value. Humanity has roots in the "us VS them" tribal mentality.

Through this lens, dating leagues do exist. Due to social pressure & influence, rather than inherent value.

With this in mind, wouldn't a social climber be better positioned to transcend dating leagues, compared to a tight gamer?


I just Googled "social climber". Interesting to see it's usually applied to women, and that most people react to term with similar vitriol to game, and pick up techniques...

[Dantes]

CR,

Great thread

I have never liked being told that someone is too good for me and I don't recall ever saying it to someone else. With that said, I recently read Krauser discussing how a short, dorky guy was never developing a Harem of hot EE girls. We don't want to sell ourselves short, but we also need a dose of realism.

First and foremost, I believe in game and its efficacy, but it has limits. Most PUA experts do not acknowledge this. This is a reason I have respect for Krauser's work. All of us can improve quality from time to time. It is rare that one elevates "out of his league" consistently over time. I think Game is great for the 6-7 range. However, if you want true quality, looks and personality/intelligence traits consistently over time , looks and social/status are more important factors.

I have seen too many guys spends thousands of dollars learning "technique" at boot camps, while not focusing more on maximizing their looks and ability to move into a different social standing

True quality is valuable...that is why so few players walk away from 8s plus because they would rather "bang other girls" or they claim not to want a relationship.

[WestIndianArchie]

Jay Electronica dated Kate Rothchild.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/articl...lover.html

*incidentally Jay Electronica is now a Nation of Islam/Fruit of Islam styled rapper.

The idea that so-called High Status Women/High Status Men are only capable of seriously dating people of the same "status" is demonstrably false.

How many famous plays and novels have been written about the "high status" person falling in love with the "low status" person?

The lizard brain wants what the lizard brain wants. The whole purpose of game is to activate those lizard brain responses. It's why you need to touch a girl before you fuck her.

WIA

(12-20-2014 12:52 AM)Clemmo Wrote:  

If Tyler the Creator had a higher status than he currently does right now. Then Taylor Swift would easily be in his league. Taylor Swift is typically with high status men like Jake Gylenthall, Harry Styles from One Direction, or John Mayer

Just look at men like Lil Wayne and Wiz Khalifa. If they were a broke dude on the street. Most women wouldn't give them a second look.

But these guys regularly pull 8's and up because of their celebrity status.