[RUIN]

i'm putting this here as its my first thread and also i'm pretty sure this is a newbie question (for the record I did do a search and nothing specific to this topic).

Question is when do you maintain frame and when do you relent?? ill admit im a stubborn bastard at the best of times and the idea of folding to what I see as a woman's shit tests isn't my thing, with that in mind here's the situation.


Aside from my normal day/night game I got three prospects from online game. all going well building the attraction etc.

Girl 1) tried seeing her once, I relented to her "busy" schedule, only saw her once and it didn't amount to anything. she went dark for a while and came back.

basically my whole attitude was "tried it your way, now if we do it at all we do it my way" and needless to say she didn't like it, kept trying to get me to go to her schedule along with "I don't do what any man tells me what to do" and I have to say the only reason why I entertained the idea was I didn't get to bang her and redheads are a "femme fatale" for me.

long story short she made out I was pushy and overbearing and my entire stance was my way and if she didn't like it - move along. until she persisted to try and get me to go along with what she wanted (but no sex when I saw her again I cannot count how many times she said that) and in the end I said in a polite manner; fuck off. and again with the "you're pushy and overbearing and I am less inclined to see you" so if ever there was a bang possibility it was lost.

Girl 2) single mum, got her number had some good text game, texted me telling me how much she has lived being only 29, ex party girl blah blah blah then called to promote just how hardcore she is etc etc. last night she says "I want to do something" and when I ask what she goes "well you don't have a car so I guess you wont find out unless you get one" (she doesn't have a car and I have a motorcycle but the work ute is at my disposal which she knows). I laughed and said "im not going out tonight" (I had work early in the morning and I was knackered from the gym). so I get a "whatever your loss" and im kinda glad, did NOT want to really deal with her after that. another potential bang (if at all) = gone

Girl 3) 30, feels the need to crap on about her past and how she is so scarred (im sensing a theme) anyway she wasn't too bad on the looks scale so I agree to meet her, I had a cocktail lounge in mind (because I wanted to go there just haven't had the chance so two birds one stone) and she asks what to wear (the usual reason being previous partners etc have never taken them somewhere more upmarket than the local pub) so I tell her dress, heels etc. then says "well you should still like me if I came in sandals and a summerdress" and I replied "you go to a nice place, you dress nice and if you don't ill consider it a big middle finger so no"

anyway long story short im a controlling manipulative bastard (same as girl #1) blah blah I tell her I don't want to see her and she ends with "well keep my number in case you want to give me another chance"


so based on all that when would you keep frame and when would you relent and give in?? I have some hope that I did the right thing because it looks like they were either used to getting their own way or wasting time anyway.

[Alpha]

I have never gotten a notch by giving in and giving up my frame. The furthest I got doing that was with this blonde beach hippie. About half way through the night I gave up leading the interaction and let her do that, we got back to her place, made out for a while, and then she threw up more LMR than I have ever seen and I ended up on the couch.

[MY DETROIT PLAYAS]

Thank girls #1 & #2 for showing you a glimpse of their true colors early in the interaction, Usually you only meet their "representative".

#3 May have potential with how she left it, next time she may come correct and acquiesce to your requests.

Once a chick sees you displaying a solid frame and having standards of some sorts, she can either bail or hang in there. SHe knows automatically how much effort she wants to put into the interaction or if she sees your value as being high enough in her eyes.

Unless you want to face constant uphill resistance, screening is a good thing

Just sounds like in the above cases - these girls did you a favor by self-filtering

[RUIN]

@Alpha - I hope she was a hot hippie I have yet to meet one that I would consider banging

@My Detroit - Cheers for that, I had a moment of doubt with them (not as much girl #1 but the others) and wondering if I probably should have just eased off.

[Bacchus]

A player should concede frame about as often as Napoleon surrendered the high ground.

[RUIN]

(10-16-2014 11:11 PM)Bacchus Wrote:  

A player should concede frame about as often as Napoleon surrendered the high ground.

@Bacchus - as I said im a stubborn bastard, but when it cost me 3 lays in 3 days (girl #3 is begging me to see her though) I had to look at myself in the mirror and ask myself:

[Virtus]

If you fall into her frame that's an automatic no-lay. If she gets you to concede then she as well may sprinkle a cup of sand into her vagina before the date.

How much attraction material are you running either during initial pickup or over text before the date?

[RUIN]

@cali - and that was my original thought.

Most of the time it's a gradual escalation getting to the point where she's already laid her kinks to bare. By the time the date happens it's just establishing the physical and going to either ones place (hers if possible I don't like them knowing where I live). But back to the original point you did confirm what I was thinking - I doubted myself there for a bit.

[Saweeep]

A frame isn't a frame if it can disintegrate.

If it can it's an act.

[kinjutsu]

The key here isn't so much maintaining frame as much as it's about leading the interaction.

Be a higher value than her. Full Stop.
Instead of asking her to meet up when she's free in stead do this...
Me: What's your week look like?
Her: I'm super busy, blah blah
Me: that's too bad, all work and no play will make you a crazy cat lady
Her: Haha! Blah blah
Me: I've got a bunch of stuff going on this week. You're welcome to tag along.
Her: What do you have going on?
Me: It depends on what day you're asking about.
Her: I have some time on wednesday.
Me: Oh i'm seeing xyz. Wear heels and a skirt. I'll pick you up at 9pm.

Done.

The rest should only be about where she lives.

A high value man doesn't bargain with low quality girls. Full Stop.

The #2 girl was a huge red flag for me. I don't associate with trash women. They have nothing to offer not even a warm hole because you know it's been ran through a lot.

The #3 girl you can salvage but i wouldn't bother. She's not worth all the emotional coddling you'd have to do.

[RUIN]

(11-08-2014 01:52 AM)kinjutsu Wrote:  

The key here isn't so much maintaining frame as much as it's about leading the interaction.

Be a higher value than her. Full Stop.
Instead of asking her to meet up when she's free in stead do this...
Me: What's your week look like?
Her: I'm super busy, blah blah
Me: that's too bad, all work and no play will make you a crazy cat lady
Her: Haha! Blah blah
Me: I've got a bunch of stuff going on this week. You're welcome to tag along.
Her: What do you have going on?
Me: It depends on what day you're asking about.
Her: I have some time on wednesday.
Me: Oh i'm seeing xyz. Wear heels and a skirt. I'll pick you up at 9pm.

Done.

The rest should only be about where she lives.

A high value man doesn't bargain with low quality girls. Full Stop.

The #2 girl was a huge red flag for me. I don't associate with trash women. They have nothing to offer not even a warm hole because you know it's been ran through a lot.

The #3 girl you can salvage but i wouldn't bother. She's not worth all the emotional coddling you'd have to do.

that dialogue was a pretty close copy of how the interaction started with Girl #1 I didn't pull the "ok we tried it your way last time now we do it mine" until after she kept dodging (for want of a better word that says "she wanted to keep it all on her terms and have a guy waiting")

Girl #2 it was the fact that it was going to be an easy lay (because she was trashy) but after the "I'm so hardcore" line it went from a half-hearted chase of a sure thing to a "fuck this" moment which however left me wondering if I played it right or made a mistake

Girl #3 as an update I did end up calling her; this one really struck home for me. Long story short before I discovered ROK a lot of what is being said I already "knew" on some inherent level, like I knew flaking was BS and in a sense knew that it was not something to really tolerate - that being said I could never pin it down to more than just a gut feeling, and then lo and behold I find ROK article "women have no sense of justice" and it finally put into words something (among many) that has been bugging me about the whole aspect of dating culture that I could never define more than just a gut feeling or vibe.

anyway point of the story was she was pulling shit tests like before, and the reason I made mention of discovering ROK was because I heard it and I KNOW she is pulling a shit-test but for the life of me I cannot explain how I know......anyway I told her to fuck off after she pulled the "I don't know who I am I need to find myself" line.

[kinjutsu]

Good find!

Sometimes you go through the motions with girls like these to show you that they will just waste your time.
I cut them off quick.
I leave thier numbers in my 2nd phone and forget about them. Then periodically send restart texts.

Once your game gets to a high level you won't even speak to these girls

[Rawmeo]

Maintain frame always. If you lose frame, you appear weak. And girls don't like weak men, so you are most likely to fall in the friendzone.

[HonantheBarbarian]

The way I see it your may or may not get the pussy, but maintaining a strong frame will keep you sharp for the next situation no matter what happens. When in doubt, stick to frame. The pussy wouldn't even be that great if you had to get it on her terms imo.

[heavy]

I don't get it...

If she was hot, and I felt giving up frame might give me the bang...wouldn't I be more inclined to give up my frame? Or perhaps the thought is long-term: if she's hot, don't cave to her because you might run into her again when sparks fly. idk

I always maintain frame. Letting others control my interaction is not worth a bang.

[WestIndianArchie]

Methinks you're using "frame" instead of saying that you have a standard of behavior for the girls you deal with. It's okay to screen, just be honest with yourself about what you're doing.

1) Case 1 - you met with her, but she wasn't so impressed with you that she though she needed to clear her schedule.

You're glossing over that first encounter, but that's what matters more so than failed attempts to get a second date.

Trying to force your way into her schedule isn't "keeping frame"

2) Case 2 - A trainwreck of a woman clowns you for not having a car, and then taunts you.

As Krauser said

"Frame is the implicit set of assumptions and expectations used to interpret a social situation."

So frame control in this case would have been reframing her take on your situation to something that she wasn't expecting.

3) Case 3 - Tell girl to dress up, she doesn't want to. But then leaves the door open to see her.

This is a case of whether or not your standards are more important than the possibility of pussy.

In all of these cases, the practical route would have been to meet these chicks that you haven't slept with, and then run game when they were actually in a position to sleep with you...not separated by cell signals and miles.

But if you're so tied to the idea of an absolute "my way or the highway", you need to increase the # of chicks that you deal with in order to get the notches you want.

No such thing as a a free lunch.

WIA

[RUIN]

@WIA - cannot doubt your logic there. Just a few things (for overall context)

Case 1 - agree with not creating a good impression first time around. It was when she called again to meet that it turned into this. As I said before I went in with an open mind to meet up, it wasn't until she inclined she wanted to meet BUT also wanted to keep it on her terms (picture the vibe of "why rush it's not like you're going anywhere") and I have to say it struck a nerve.

At no stage was it ultimatums from my end, standards yes. It was definitely a case of "these are the times I'm free, else no" and I can say I was a tad jaded at her behavior last time. It also struck a nerve that refusing to budge to suit her gave way to "you're a domineering control freak" as I put no obligation on her, I did however not relent ony own schedule.

Case 2 - yep I walked away from that one the minute she mocked me.

Case 3 - she's a single mum, and enough baggage to be borderline "take it or leave it" which is why I called her again to meet.

Yep I do have high standards, many reasons why however long story short I have more things outside of gaming that I am not too bugged when girls like the above mentioned decide to try and call the shots.