[heavy]

One thing I learned from Poosy Paradise was how even a man like Roosh (sex with hundreds of beautiful women the world over) has to push push push for it and still fails a LOT.

Or even Paul Janka...good looking guy in NYC...was 1/9 after getting the number.

Edit: Too many times we see guys with attractive chics and think, wow he's smooth and has no problem getting chics, I wish I had his experience/talent/success, when in reality...(1) he isn't banging her and is friend-zoned with all of his attractive friends, (2) he's banging her...2x a month because he's given up his man-card, (3) he lucked out and is banging her, but she's getting bored of him quickly, (4) he gets chics but he has serious anxiety or depression or something (I know a couple guys like this) and can't get chics to stay around, (5) 5% he's a player.

[Dalaran1991]

Guys its pretty clear nobody advocate P4P here, but this obsession with dignity and ego and earning your notch might be unnecessary.

First, sex is sex. You are paying in one form or another. Spending hours entertaining a girl/learning game/take her on dates etc., its all a form of paying.

Other societies have a much more relaxed attitude toward P4P. Its just a service. If you say P4P is empty and not rewarding and shit, its the same for eating a meal at a restaurant. Why dont you spend $ and effort learning how to cook? Hell even how to hunt for that matter. Alpha as fuck. As a bartender I feel that ordering a cocktail when Im at a bar is worse than ordering a hooker. Cheap alcool with lots of ice for 10x the price, makes me feel bad about humanity Spend money and learn how to make your damn drinks

In Asia it is very common that manhood initiation means we all go to a massage parlor, relax, drinks beer, then the seniors pay and pick a pretty girl for the young buck. The alpha males in Vietnam actually are very well acquainted with the industry. Its part of the social relations.

Secondly, I think he has already mentioned that he tried game and has approached girls and its not working. Sure he needs to improve himself with a list of things to do but P4P could and should be on that list.

It works differently on different people. For my initiation I went with 2 buddies. One of them is now my wing and we both are doing fine. I was a beta too but after I know what it means to be inside a woman its like a veil being lifted from my eyes. I no longer had any inhibition.

The other dude is still beta and is now addicted to P4P.

Game isnt always rewarding. We all know the shitstorm Roosh has to go through. And quite frankly having ONS with Western girls from a bar these days feel less rewarding and more exhausting than getting a hooker. You busted your ass to get a 5 or 6 who is half drunk and just lay there making you do all the work. Then in the morning they ate your pizza and ask for more booze. Bitch gets the fuck out.

At least a pro is pretty and has the dencency to leave and be frank with the charge for her service.

Anyway, this MIGHT just be the kick the OP need to get started. He s not gonna spiral into depression because he did it, unless we keep shaming him for using P4P.

[heavy]

^^^ I agree do p4p...realize how awesome sex is and it'll motivate.

I just don't really think sex with one girl will break the damn loose.

[simondice]

It's not ego, call me beta but I think the first time should be special with a feminine girl who let's you take the lead, genuinely likes you and wants to be plugged in every hole, not a club rat (nothing wrong with them, not judging them, but I wouldn't trust them as far as I can throw them)

You should pick a shy girl, a girl lets you lead and be a guy.

I guess most guys here have evolved after their first time, and feel sex is more of a need or sport, but they forget they were once virgins
You have to remember that the first time is an emotional time for the guy too, an initiation to one of life's biggest joys.

The fact that he feels awful about doing it like this means there's something wrong.with it (for him) that's his gut (instinct) saying "this isn't right for me"

The first time is more of a heart-cock combo, rather than just a release.
It has to be for real, otherwise it'll be like he never lost his vCard.
The hooker will be dry (attitude and her pussy), bored and hating you and herself, while she does it. At night when she goes home (or morning) she'll take a shower and try to forget about you number whatever you were. Now would you really want that? There's nothing like an empty victory, it'll eat away your soul and you know it, game over.

Pm me, I can try and help you.

[Phoenix]

I too was recommended this once upon a time. I would recommend against it strongly.

I personally would have felt great shame if my first girl was a hooker. Part of having sex, especially for the first time, is the validation that 'I am good enough for a girl to want to have sex with me'. When it's a done paid-for deal, you don't have that. I have a friend who has slept with hookers many times when he was lonely, and he said every single time he felt like shit afterwards. A hooker cannot give you the satisfaction of conquest. Part of hating being a virgin is that it is a mark of not being sexually worthy. A hooker can only reinforce that - 'so after 30 years of longing, it ends with a hooker'.

My recommendation, 'all out', is as follows:
- Lower your standards drastically. The first time does not need to be with a great woman, it just needs to happen. In fact having your first time with a great woman is bad - you wan't to be as experienced as possible to increase your chances of keeping her. Remember that you do not need to stay with the girl. You need never talk to her again if you want. Men in scarcity sometimes worry that when they finally get a girl they will feel compelled to stay with her. This is not the case.
- Take a holiday of at least 2 weeks to a country in which you are the most attractive possible, and the girls are the loosest. Search these forums for such places. It is extremely unlikely in such a country, if your standards are not too high, that you will not be able to find a girl who will bang you if you ask enough of them to come home with you.
- Use all the online/nightclub advice available to you here, especially using datasheets available for whichever city you are in. Remember to push. Do not second guess, just suggest after the date or chatting to her at the club that she come to your place (for innocent reason such as 'to watch TV', 'get another drink' or whatever). If she won't, move on. Someone will.
- Do not concern yourself with sexual performance. Once she is on your bed, you need not talk much, just make out, start touching her body, take off her clothes, play with her pussy, put on a condom (practice this beforehand), and stick it in. If she resists any stage of this, back off to the previous stage, then try again in a few minutes. Once you're in, try to take your time so you last at least 10 minutes, and ideally do at least 2 positions (e.g. missionary, then doggystyle, then perhaps back to missionary). You will be surprised how straightforward it is. The basics are instinctual.
- Rince and repeat.

You will be surprised how small the mountain looks on the other side.

[Phoenix]

(09-11-2014 09:20 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

First, sex is sex. You are paying in one form or another. Spending hours entertaining a girl/learning game/take her on dates etc., its all a form of paying.

I strongly disagree with this. By the same logic a wife is the most expensive whore of them all.
The difference between a lay and P4P is that to fuck you, the girl has to like you. The girl has sex with you as a result of courtship and sexual attraction, instead of by contract. Whatever costs involved in the courtship, she can simply say at the end of the night 'sorry, I've got to go home'. When she has sex with you instead, it is proof of your sexual worthiness. Sex with a hooker is only proof you had money in your wallet.

[boywonder34]

"I think the first time should be special with a feminine girl who let's you take the lead, genuinely likes you"

I still really want this (shit, even better would be my first time would be her first as well) but does it make sense to still hold on to something when it will never happen?
As a result of reading about game and red pill, I've given up on a lot of my ideals. I no longer have a strong desire to get married. I no longer see girls as precious and innocent. I no longer think I should wait till I get married to have sex.

I fully get that p4p is buying her body, not her desire. I understand that part of the satisfaction from getting a girl is precisely *because* you have demonstrated sufficient value as a man, as a human. But if I am hoping if I get this monkey off my back, my desperateness to lose my v card may no longer betray me.

My logical brain is telling me I should do this, but my "heart" (what i really desire) is saying I should just continue gaming and eventually ill get there.

What is great is that every single post here has given real advice and offers of help. Not even ONE has said "just wait and let it happen naturally", "don't worry, you'll find someone" and other similar "advice" that reads like something from a bullshit womans magazine. I wish more of my friends were real like this and I wish I had asked this when I was 20.

Today I booked my accommodation and flights. I told my friends I am taking a later flight. They think im taking one a few hours later, not a few days later. This will gives me the option to go through with it if I choose to.

I still dont know if I should be real and just fuck it literally, or follow my ideals and get laid the hard way. What if i never make it? What if i get hit by a bus?

I hate that I dont know what to do. A strong confident man does not hesitate and makes the decision that is right for him

I've pm'd some members and will pm more soon.

[LemonDrink]

If money permits you should go on a spending spree. Instead of fucking 1 go fuck 10 of them over a period of a few days.

[Phoenix]

Don't give the 'v-card' thing weight. It is not a thing. It is not a status. It is not an actual object attached to you. You just haven't had sex yet. No different to 'not having driven a car yet', or 'haven't voted yet', or 'haven't scuba dived yet'. People do no talk about these as 'x-cards', that would be silly.

Most men who were virgins for long periods of time say the exact same thing once they have sex - 'it was no big deal, I just had sex'. Then you go have sex again, and again.

(09-11-2014 04:25 PM)boywonder34 Wrote:  

What is great is that every single post here has given real advice and offers of help. Not even ONE has said "just wait and let it happen naturally", "don't worry, you'll find someone" and other similar "advice" that reads like something from a bullshit womans magazine.

Correct. And I frequent RVF precisely because it's 'anti-talking-shit'.
I fucking resent people who say those kinds of things. That nonsense hurts people. All they have to say is 'improve yourself, start conversations with people you don't know, and push interactions with women towards your bed'. Instead they imply it is all 'magic'. Disgraceful.

[armenia4ever]

I'm far from an expert, but I was a virgin up until this year. I'm 25 btw. The 3 girls I've slept with werent great, in fact only one of them wasn't overweight and semi decent looking, but I learned something new each time.


That boosted my confidence. The fatty I was banging made my sexual confidence go through the roof.

I think Roosh said it, but sometimes you have to bang a few fatties to get your confidence back when you are in a slump.

Get out of this slump. Lower your standards of need be, but get it done.

[Doofer]

I was a V at 30 too. Like you I had friends, hobbies, was not deformed. Think it's just just one of those things where if you take a sample size of one hundred 30-year olds, there will be a few who haven't lost it yet and a few with high notch counts. Normal bell curve like with all things.

I lost it with a pro and didn't have any remorse afterward or in the years since. Don't know about you but at that stage I had reached a point where I felt so awkward about it I was uncomfortable with the idea of even going on a date. Guys on my coed softball team at the time, who didn't know my situation, were trying to hook me up with a teammate who was apparently interested in me. However, I felt like I couldn't go out with anyone with a tie to my social circle, lest they all later hear from her that I was a 30 year old virgin. Wasn't really into her anyway.

Also, a few years later, when I had sex with a non-pro female for the first time, it sucked. It was a hookup after a night at the club, had drank too much and it was late (3 am). The way my body works, I cannot get it up very well if I have been drinking or that late at night, double whammy when its both. At least with the pro I was able to do it at the day and time of my choosing when I knew my shit would be functional.

[Sonsowey]

Boywonder,

If you have the dough to travel internationally, and you have the dough for a pro, why not just travel to a country where white guys admittedly have it a little easier, like the Philippines, Dominican Republic, or Peru, and lose your virginity with a girl who would genuinely be excited to have sex with you?

There are lots of different destinations. By chance, do you have light colored eyes or hair?

[simondice]

Relavant

http://www.goodlookingloser.com/entry/ge...ity-part-1

It is VERY IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO READ THIS BEFORE YOU P4P!

[boywonder34]

"at that stage I had reached a point where I felt so awkward about it I was uncomfortable with the idea of even going on a date."

I haven't hit that point (if ever). I dont imagine being a virgin would be a problem on a date - it wouldn't come up in a conversation. However I think you've touched on something as well as below:

"However, I felt like I couldn't go out with anyone with a tie to my social circle, lest they all later hear from her that I was a 30 year old virgin."

exactly this. Perhaps my mind was subconsciously aware of this and sabotaging myself. I remember one instance where anyone on this forum would have escalated, bit I didn't. I dont know why, perhaps I was scared she'd find out I was a virgin? How messed up is that? I want to lose my virginity, but I dont want to have sex otherwise someone will find out im a virgin. I don't know if thats how it works.

Thanks for your reply, its a shame im not the only 30 yo virgin, but good to see a reply from a similar point of view as me.

[boywonder34]

"If you have the dough to travel internationally, and you have the dough for a pro, why not just travel to a country where white guys admittedly have it a little easier, like the Philippines, Dominican Republic, or Peru, and lose your virginity with a girl who would genuinely be excited to have sex with you?

There are lots of different destinations. By chance, do you have light colored eyes or hair?"

Im not white but I didnt mention that about me because I dont want to race troll. Besides I choose not to blame my virginity on that or use it as a crutch. I live in Europe and im not going to Amsterdam for sex, I only thought that if im ever to p4p, this would be the time to do it.

When you mean "the Philippines, Dominican Republic, or Peru" and similar countries, do you mean the locals would be excited or the prostitutes would be excited?

[boywonder34]

"Relavant

http://www.goodlookingloser.com/entry/ge...ity-part-1

It is VERY IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO READ THIS BEFORE YOU P4P!"

Reading it now. Interesting, I went out to approach today, did 3 yesterday that didn't go anywhere, and today I came home, having done no approaches, hating myself for being so weak.

that site says you dont even need to cold approach which I thought was the foundation of game. Interesting, as not many guys I know cold approach yet every guy I know has been laid.

Im going to go out tonight with a friend, knowing dudes with worse game than me get laid every night will give me motivation to approach.

[simondice]

(09-13-2014 02:13 PM)boywonder34 Wrote:  

"If you have the dough to travel internationally, and you have the dough for a pro, why not just travel to a country where white guys admittedly have it a little easier, like the Philippines, Dominican Republic, or Peru, and lose your virginity with a girl who would genuinely be excited to have sex with you?

There are lots of different destinations. By chance, do you have light colored eyes or hair?"

Im not white but I didnt mention that about me because I dont want to race troll. Besides I choose not to blame my virginity on that or use it as a crutch. I live in Europe and im not going to Amsterdam for sex, I only thought that if im ever to p4p, this would be the time to do it.

When you mean "the Philippines, Dominican Republic, or Peru" and similar countries, do you mean the locals would be excited or the prostitutes would be excited?

Locals

[Sonsowey]

Boywonder, its not race trolling to mention your race, as long as you do not use it as a cop out.

Yes, there are many countries where admittedly, sex with attractive young women is easier for foreigners. Does Latin America or South East Asia sound like an attractive destination to you?

In many parts of Latin America, whitr guys with light features have a special pull, but foreigners in general also have a pull. For instance, in Colombia, girls worship light features, but are also very curious about foreigners who do not fit into their preconcieved notions. They think all Europeans and Americans are blonde and blue eyed. They are genuinely surprised to learn otherwise. I knew an Asian American guy in Colombia who absolutely killed it. If you are, wild guess here, South Asian, Colombians at least would be totally surprised that you are European, and likely the big majority has never even met a person of South Asian heritage (if my guess is correct) so they have no negative or positive impresssions at all, just genuine ignorant curiosity.

Go read some threads on Colombia in the travel section perhaps.

[LemonDrink]

(09-13-2014 02:18 PM)boywonder34 Wrote:  

Im going to go out tonight with a friend, knowing dudes with worse game than me get laid every night will give me motivation to approach.

You are no newbie, you got some foundation of game down. You will get laid tonight...if you want it enough.

[Gopnik]

(09-13-2014 02:06 PM)boywonder34 Wrote:  

"at that stage I had reached a point where I felt so awkward about it I was uncomfortable with the idea of even going on a date."

I haven't hit that point (if ever). I dont imagine being a virgin would be a problem on a date - it wouldn't come up in a conversation

I think this is coming from a wrong mindset and might be part of the problem. It seems from what you have written that you are having problems escalating. If you are with an attractive girl (on a date, cold approach etc) you eventually need to get sexual and a great way of showing this is through your conversation. What I mean by this is not necessarily doing dirty talk/saying what you want to do to her etc (although sometimes it can be a good idea). Even talking about sexual preferences and previous experiences is good for sexualizing things, this is not the stuff that girls would talk about with their beta orbiters.

Personally, I'm no playboy but I can assure you I have never been friendzoned and that is because I'm usually very sexual with the girls I'm interested at. Sure, I might fuck up with some "maybe girls" but provided my logistics etc are right I will almost always get far with a "yes girl".

About resorting to P4P I think this is different for every guy but it seems that you want your 1st time to be at least somewhat special. In my opinion, the 1st time that you have sex is a bit overrated (ideally you will have sex hundreds of times during your life). That being said, I did lose my virgo with my then time gf so I'm not sure I would feel differently had it not been the case. I think resorting to P4P and fucking like 10-15 pros to get experience and "comfortable" with your sexuality could probably help your interactions with regular girls, just don't make it a habit and keep approching and put in the effort.

Again, as previous members have mentioned, consider doing a long trip to somewhere where pulling might be easier, don't underestimate the exotic factor, I don't know about your background but do some research there's probably a place for you.

[boywonder34]

"You are no newbie, you got some foundation of game down. You will get laid tonight...if you want it enough."

I just got back. My friends never got back to me. I thought fuck it, I told the forum im going out so im going out, even if it means going solo.

Used the opportunity to go to a bar/club my friends and I never go to. This will be the second time ive been out alone, but I just felt like the weird old guy standing around with no friends.

What I normally do is approach and have my wing join me a few minutes later. So I chatted to a couple of guys hoping to recruit them as a wing, but they weren't really that keen. I've found a bad wing or one you don't know and trust is worse than none anyway. Stood around a bit, felt shit so came home.

if im by myself, Im more comfortable doing day approaches, so i thought go home early so i can day game tomorrow.

Im disappointed in myself that I didn't even do one approach. When i was on that boot camp i did 20 in one night, so my approach anxiety is no longer under control like it used to be. or maybe im just a better fit for day game, and now that I've had a little taste of it, clubs seem like a loud waste of time.

Started lifting and just realised ive completed 1 week of no fap. Maybe my current urgency to get laid is due to my full balls. No fap. Believe in it.

[boywonder34]

"I think this is coming from a wrong mindset and might be part of the problem. It seems from what you have written that you are having problems escalating. If you are with an attractive girl (on a date, cold approach etc) you eventually need to get sexual and a great way of showing this is through your conversation. What I mean by this is not necessarily doing dirty talk/saying what you want to do to her etc (although sometimes it can be a good idea). Even talking about sexual preferences and previous experiences is good for sexualizing things, this is not the stuff that girls would talk about with their beta orbiters."

Absolutely. I've read about how to turn a conversation sexual and common techniques include the ask a question that you can't ask back game. The problem is id have no legit answer if I was asked what age did you lose your virginity? How many have you slept with? Im not a very convincing liar and women pick up on incongruence easily.

"... I have never been friendzoned and that is because I'm usually very sexual with the girls..."

The last girl I was dating (literally dating, as in, went on dates, kissed) friendzoned me. I escalated but probably not enough. Take Rooshs post about things wrong with western women, then make a girl from the complete opposite of that without religion and westernise her. That pretty much describes her, so i sometimes wonder because i DID escalate, did she think i was a jerk boy who only wanted sex? I followed the doctrine of "err on the side of boldness than caution". There's another thread i started for that anyway. Im following rooshs advice that to get over a girl, find someone else quickly, even if she isn't as good as the one your trying to replace.

"About resorting to P4P I think this is different for every guy but it seems that you want your 1st time to be at least somewhat special."

Yes, deep down inside i want it to be something special that we'd share, but is it blue pill beta for me to want it to be special? Imagine if i started a thread that asked "How can i make my first time be special? Btw im 30 and want it to be her first time so it is special for her as well". Every reply would be that GIF of the bearded guy laughing with the blue sky background.

I'm trying to teach myself that it isn't special, to not put the pussy on a pedestal. I figure the "correct" way to want this is to just treat sex like a cheap experience that can be easily discarded. Would making my first time with a prostitute ensure that?
I've heard my friend girls tell me "its just sex" as if it is no more special an act that coughing, but the again that is her point of view. She is a genuine friend, but lets just say she's very very not a virgin.

"I think resorting to P4P and fucking like 10-15 pros to get experience and "comfortable" with your sexuality could probably help your interactions with regular girls, just don't make it a habit and keep approching and put in the effort"

Im coming around to this idea. I was originally planning to only do it once, but if im in Amsterdam, why only do it once? I intend to only p4p on this Amsterdam trip. It doesn't make sense to p4p anywhere other than Amsterdam and im unlikely to go to Amsterdam again. i assume sex isn't as intoxicating as coke or heroin where i get hooked on paying for it. That would suck.

[LemonDrink]

The only you thing should be concerned with p4p is STDs.

[RXB]

I'm going to recommend against P4P as well.

Not for moral reasons, but for the following.

While I've never banged a hooker, most of my early notches were crazy party girls (who aren't much better).

Having sex with them gave me a very negative outlook on women and I didn't even like hooking up with them that much.

That negativity really screwed up my game, and relationships with friends and family, taking well over a year to repair.

Pick-up is great and I've hooked up with a lot of women, but if you focus on banging nothing but slutty women (or, in your case, hookers) you'll get a very warped and negative view of the world.

You need to have a physical and emotional connection.

I'd recommend taking your hooker money and vacation time and going somewhere like the Philippines.

There will be all kinds of sweet girls who would be more than happy to have sex with you and will probably cook you a big breakfast in the morning before wanting to go round two.

[Sonsowey]

Boywonder,

What country in Europe are you based out of? Find out what online platforms are good there and try that.

Also, seriously look into travelling somewhere. Certainly it'd be a "special" experience if you lose your virginity to a cute young Latina who hardly speaks your language, or a tiny filippina nymph.

http://swooptheworld.com/how-to-bang-3-w...ilippines/

Try creating an account on filippinocupid and paying the few dollars to be able to message girls. See the kinds of responses you get. I think it'll convert you to online game and travel. And it'll help you lose your virginity with a cute girl who isn't a pro.