[ManAbout]

I know there are a few other people out here running businesses and doing online related work.

Right now I am in the process of hiring offshore staff for a couple of my projects. They will be full time employees, hired to specifically work on stuff I give them. I will be renting office space, paying their salaries, benefits and taking care of their taxes etc.

The reason I put this out here is I am wondering if anybody is else is also interested in doing something similar. We can pool our resources together and get one joint office space and maybe even share employees.

The type of people I am looking to hire at that moment are PHP, Javascript developers and website/graphic designers with a knowledge Photoshop, Illustrator, Flash etc.

Right now my preference is India because I have contacts there and already have a bit of infrastructure on the ground.

[JayMillz]

(03-08-2011 10:57 AM)ManAbout Wrote:  

I know there are a few other people out here running businesses and doing online related work.

Right now I am in the process of hiring offshore staff for a couple of my projects. They will be full time employees, hired to specifically work on stuff I give them. I will be renting office space, paying their salaries, benefits and taking care of their taxes etc.

The reason I put this out here is I am wondering if anybody is else is also interested in doing something similar. We can pool our resources together and get one joint office space and maybe even share employees.

The type of people I am looking to hire at that moment are PHP, Javascript developers and website/graphic designers with a knowledge Photoshop, Illustrator, Flash etc.

Right now my preference is India because I have contacts there and already have a bit of infrastructure on the ground.

I got a friend who is an attorney and he just started outsourcing some work to India. Not sure why he is sending money to India instead of keeping it in his neighborhood since he already makes good money, but he said he did his research and decided to go this route.

[D. Goodnuts]

I'm in the recruitment/human resources field now with a MAJOR international entity. Pm me and we can chat further.

[DanDeLaCruz]

I use offshore personal assistants but I wouldn't necessarily invest in infrastructure over there. There are plenty of companies which let you hire assistants part time, and they're very flexible about increasing your man power if needed, and you don't have to worry about any infrastructure costs, they take care of all those headaches.

Is there a specific reason why you want to setup an actual office and hire your own workers? You can let someone else take care of this, and just worry about qualifiying and hiring workers of temp agencies already in place.

I wouldn't like to lock myself down to one location either. Labor and other costs can shift rapidly. What if in a year you find that it makes more sense to hiring in the Philippines or somewhere else? It might make sense to keep your options open...

[truedat]

I am reading bad ideas all around so far. Currently I have almost 30 working for me overseas, but they arent my employees.

There are 2 ways to go about outsourcing:

1. Use a company that already has HR, Engineers, Project Managers, Programmers, Designers and office space and pay a semi-reasonable rate (I do this and still make 60+% margins).

2. Hire Individuals directly for 25% of the cost, and then become the HR, Engineer, Project Manager etc. and end up burning on a stake if anything goes to shit, instead of being the one with the matches and kerosene.

I prefer to look at boobies part of my day and pay others to carry some of the stress burden.

TD

[ManAbout]

(03-11-2011 11:18 AM)truedat Wrote:  

I am reading bad ideas all around so far. Currently I have almost 30 working for me overseas, but they arent my employees.

There are 2 ways to go about outsourcing:

1. Use a company that already has HR, Engineers, Project Managers, Programmers, Designers and office space and pay a semi-reasonable rate (I do this and still make 60+% margins).

2. Hire Individuals directly for 25% of the cost, and then become the HR, Engineer, Project Manager etc. and end up burning on a stake if anything goes to shit, instead of being the one with the matches and kerosene.

I prefer to look at boobies part of my day and pay others to carry some of the stress burden.

TD

I have tried option 1 numerous times, and every time it has been a failure. Lack of control and quality are the two biggest issues. And what happens when the company you are dealing with decides to double their rate? Or they give you a different guy from the one you interviewed? At the end of the day, with this option you really are at the mercy of that company. And it's not easy to move companies if it starts acting up, because then you have to retrain a whole new set of people.

Why would you burn on a stake with option 2? Many organizations have done it succesfully.

Maybe you have been lucky that you have found some good people to work with, but for me, option 1 has been a disaster all around.

[ManAbout]

(03-11-2011 10:38 AM)DanDeLaCruz Wrote:  

Is there a specific reason why you want to setup an actual office and hire your own workers? You can let someone else take care of this, and just worry about qualifiying and hiring workers of temp agencies already in place.

The problem with this is that even if you hire someone, there is no guarantee that the person will actually be working for you on your projects. I have done this before. The person who I supposedly hired was not the one doing the work.

[DanDeLaCruz]

(03-11-2011 11:46 AM)ManAbout Wrote:  

The problem with this is that even if you hire someone, there is no guarantee that the person will actually be working for you on your projects. I have done this before. The person who I supposedly hired was not the one doing the work.

Yeah I've had problems too... it takes a little while to find a good assistant or a good company that provides them. I've had better luck in the Philippines. I'm not too fond of India...

[truedat]

Manabout - You def dont know what you are doing, and/or are afraid to hop on a plane. Before I start a 10,000 hour project you can bet that I will be hanging around their office for a couple of weeks and come back 1.5-2 months before project completion to see if I need to put a fire under their ass, even if its in Delhi or Mumbai or where I actually have people working (not saying).

TD

[Tommy]

FYI it would be better to outsource your work to an established company in India or the Philippines instead of renting office space and hiring the employees yourself.

[ManAbout]

(03-13-2011 04:55 AM)truedat Wrote:  

Manabout - You def dont know what you are doing, and/or are afraid to hop on a plane. Before I start a 10,000 hour project you can bet that I will be hanging around their office for a couple of weeks and come back 1.5-2 months before project completion to see if I need to put a fire under their ass, even if its in Delhi or Mumbai or where I actually have people working (not saying).

TD

If you have contacts with established companies that you have worked with or are working with and wouldn't mind sharing, then send me a PM.

Thanks.

[babelfish669]

You need to know how deep the water is before diving head first. If your planning on opening an office, signing contracts, and subjecting yourself to foreign law your definitely diving in head first.

I've had full time programmers working for me in the Philippines for about 4 years now. I started out with an outsourcing agency and now all the guys are freelance working from home. The agency had an office, HR, recruitment, all that BS. After a few too many fuckups by that agency now all of the guys are paid directly by me. I send them their paychecks at the end of the month and thats it.

Do you have a lot of experience with Indian labor? Cheap doesn't mean anything when your getting mindfucked by incompetents who are pretending they don't understand your English just so they can ensure they have work for the next 6 months. I can see the coding stuff working out with the right managers in place, but in my experience design work really needs to be done in the country that its being sourced for.

[truedat]

I think the misconception people have is that outsourcing is all 100% hands off and it is easy. You can just toss people work and expect that they will know what to do 100% of the time. I personally train everyone to do the work the way 'I' want it done. If they cant do it my way, then I find this out ASAP and still have enough profit left in the project to re-source it and get it done right from another 'partner'. I have been working with 5 companies total for the last 7 years, of which I still use 3 of them. The trick is finding out who does what best. I have 1 company I use specifically for .net. 1 for PHP (Wordpress/Drupal/Custom PHP work) and 1 for SEM. After you have a few of them trained to work your way, then I use these team members to train new people that we bring on the team. My partners want the work, and know what I expect, and they also get 'trained' to get me the type of people I need to get the work done. My partners have also meet me in person, and know Im not afraid to hop on a plane and raise hell if required.

Like anything, you have to figure out how to get what you want using what is available to you. It takes time to get a system down. In order for me to get to where I am now, and not be a slave to some 9-5 bullshit, I had to put in the work. This meant being available from 9AM-6PM for my local clients, and then running my team by skype from 8PM to 2AM to make sure shit gets done right. As soon as I wake up I check the work and toss it to the clients and it starts all over again. Do I work hard? No. Do I work all the time? Kinda. Can I afford to go anywhere in the world on 24 hours notice and stay there for 6 months in luxury? Yep.

Everything has an upside and a downside, but I will never go back to the matrix.

[Jalouse]

Hey Manabout what kind of costs are you talking about for this?

[Yumi]

(03-19-2011 09:55 PM)babelfish669 Wrote:  

You need to know how deep the water is before diving head first. If your planning on opening an office, signing contracts, and subjecting yourself to foreign law your definitely diving in head first.

I've had full time programmers working for me in the Philippines for about 4 years now. I started out with an outsourcing agency and now all the guys are freelance working from home. The agency had an office, HR, recruitment, all that BS. After a few too many fuckups by that agency now all of the guys are paid directly by me. I send them their paychecks at the end of the month and thats it.

Do you have a lot of experience with Indian labor? Cheap doesn't mean anything when your getting mindfucked by incompetents who are pretending they don't understand your English just so they can ensure they have work for the next 6 months. I can see the coding stuff working out with the right managers in place, but in my experience design work really needs to be done in the country that its being sourced for.

That's good that you are actually successful in outsourcing. It's true that cheap doesn't actually mean that you can save. Their are risks, especially when you outsource. In fact, you don't have to rule the lowest bidders. It's quite tempting but keep in mind that you will be getting what you pay for.

Well, there are solutions to the problems in outsourcing. You can check some of the best guides here: http://www.timedoctor.com/biz3.0/15-esse...cing-tips/

As mentioned, it's still best to hire someone who can work where you can actually see them since you can directly monitor them but wouldn't it be better if you would just outsource them? For one, you could really save a lot of money and second, you can save time. But hey, you need to be careful as you should not outsource activities that can directly impact your customers. Also, you have to choose the best providers. Consider reviews, interviews, feedback from previous employer, portfolio, etc.

[Caligula]

I haven't outsourced anything like this myself since I've always kept development close to home, but I have looked into it.

If I were doing anything technologically demanding I'd be hiring programmers in Eastern Europe rather than India. Romania, Bulgaria or the Baltics (Estonia / Lithuania) are all countries I'd be looking at. If it's just paint by numbers web development you may be fine in India, but personally I'd be wary of the cultural differences.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

[PDX]

Planning on looking into this. Quick question, however:

With the market as bad as it is in the US right now, why not hire freelance college grads to basically do the same work? It may not be as cheap as overseas, but seems less hassle geographically and culturally.

I'm sure a lot of recent grads would want *some* income other than their part-time barista jobs.

School me.

[Tex]

Hiring remote isn't just international. If you have your own complex business, it's probably going to become a necessity.

Seems like the big issue everyone is bringing up is being able to ensure a quality work product. This is a question of accountability.

A big tool for successful remote hiring I think would be the use of an app like Clio. Have tasks plainly listed, have a mechanism for easy dialogue and direction in place, keep all your needed documents in a shared database, have deadlines clearly set, and keep track of the quality of work as time goes on (for everyone to see). That's an absolute must.