[Hardy Daytona]

http://www.returnofkings.com/36890/what-...%E2%80%B2s

I hope this is in the right part of the forum.
I'll admit that I'm 24 and still a virgin. To clarify, I do have sexual experience, just not of the penetrative variety.
I disagreed with some of the psychology and methodology presented in John Doe's article though.
He's absolutely right about the mentality of the situation - if you're unwilling to improve yourself, or even make the decision to, then your efforts are doomed to failure in their inception, hence why I've started associating with fellow red-pillers, working out, eating better and approaching more.
However, it's his suggestion of finding a sympathetic prostitute I took issue with.
This has been a subject I've debated to myself over and over again, so the conclusion I've reached for myself may not apply to anyone else here on the forum.
But to purchase sex for the first time is an admittance of defeat.
Since time immemorial, we men have always gained satisfaction and pride from being able to conquer a woman physically and mentally without any outside help. It goes without saying that there's always initial trepidation, but the inability to conquer it without external influence is something that I believe not only cheapens the experience but also leaves a lasting imprint: "I had to pay for my first time."
No matter how much my body may yearn for the physical release, I know that I'd have trouble looking at myself in the mirror the morning after. My pride would be wounded, my confidence would most likely experience a temporary boost that would be brought to heel as time passed and it would leave me with a temptation to continue to pay for sex as it would be a safe avenue - no emotional involvement, no risk, no possibility of failure and satisfaction guaranteed.
Basically, I can summarize with a quote from one of John Niven's books.
'Sometimes the hard way is the hard way for a reason.'

What are some of your thoughts/responses?

[big poppa]

I lost my virginity quite young (16), so I can't fully relate to being an older guy who hasn't gotten tail. Trying to put myself into the situation, if I had gone many years of wanting pussy but unable to get any, there would be a lingering feeling every waking moment. I'd pay for it just to prove to myself that I am capable of physically having sex and perhaps even able to please a woman. That would probably help get rid of some of the 'approach anxiety' or the fear of not performing well in the bedroom. Because you are slightly older than the average virgin, I can imagine 'closing the deal' would be filled with a lot of nervousness and apprehension, which the girl will pick up on.

I have a good friend who is in a similar position to you, i don't think there is anything wrong with paying for your first time, which I have told him, as long as it is not made a habit. You won't get any less pussy for doing it, no one will find out, and at that stage I'd say it can only help.

Once you are getting with your 4th or 5th chick, I highly doubt you will look in the mirror and see a failure who "had to pay for his first time". In 5 years time you will barely remember your first time and it will just be one of the 1000 times you've had sex.

[Cobra]

^^^Pride and ego are basically versions of "living in your head."

Pride will not only stop you from approaching but it can also stop you from getting what you want through more "unconventional" means like the article notes. And actually, since time immemorial, men have been using both conventional means and unconventional to getting laid. So don't let your pride delude you into believing it was only one.

Your pride and ego will be put on the chopping block and cut into pieces as you cold approach anyways. So I would argue using different means to reduce your anxiety is fine as long as you're not causing severe harm to anyone.

Sometimes you need to be out of your head and think about your long term goals and do whatever it takes to get there, and it sometimes takes a stronger man to put his pride in the line of fire.

[Vitriol]

(06-22-2014 09:10 AM)Hardy Daytona Wrote:  

However, it's his suggestion of finding a sympathetic prostitute I took issue with.
This has been a subject I've debated to myself over and over again, so the conclusion I've reached for myself may not apply to anyone else here on the forum.
But to purchase sex for the first time is an admittance of defeat.
Since time immemorial, we men have always gained satisfaction and pride from being able to conquer a woman physically and mentally without any outside help. It goes without saying that there's always initial trepidation, but the inability to conquer it without external influence is something that I believe not only cheapens the experience but also leaves a lasting imprint: "I had to pay for my first time."
No matter how much my body may yearn for the physical release, I know that I'd have trouble looking at myself in the mirror the morning after. My pride would be wounded, my confidence would most likely experience a temporary boost that would be brought to heel as time passed and it would leave me with a temptation to continue to pay for sex as it would be a safe avenue - no emotional involvement, no risk, no possibility of failure and satisfaction guaranteed.

I think you're really over-analyzing this and it's going to cause you problems down the road because you're buying into the hype that sex is a bigger deal than a short physical release, or that getting pussy somehow "makes you a man" or should be connected to how you perceive yourself.

You're basically rubbing your dick on a girl for a few minutes and right after you nut, your life is going to be exactly the same as it was before. Reading game forums and lot of the other stuff on the internet can really warp your perception of how awesome sex is if you've never done it before. Just find an easy way to do it and get it out of the way so that it no longer seems like some grand transcendent experience to you.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

I agree with the others here and with the John Doe article.

IN your mind you have made the first time into some incredible experience. In most instances the experience is not so great. Very few of us experience a deep love and connection with the girl they have sex with.

Just take a particularly pretty and very young escort with GFE (girlfriend-experience) and be done with it. It is not defeat. The defeat is sticking to your ego. It is probably already some cause of obsession and lack of confidence.

Fuck some prostitutes, then go sign up for a bootcamp, read Game literature, meet up with some fellow Players in your town (you can contact them via Forum). Even if your goal is getting a girlfriend - all of this will help you find and keep one way more easily - you need massive Game in relationships too nowadays.

Look at it from this viewpoint: If you pay for it now, you will be way more relaxed in your first date even if you meet the girl of your dreams in 6 months. She will likely not be a virgin and it is not a selling point for her if you are one - this is only a plus for girls and not for men. Even virgins do not like to have sex with a virgin man above a certain age.

[Ice]

Yes agree with all the posters above.

Having this idea that the first time needs to be something special and shouldn't be done with a hooker is stupid. It's just something you do and move on.

I would just get a trip to Bangkok and have sex with a number of hookers and non-pros. I actually wish I had done that when I was 16. That would have helped me so much.

Sex is nothing special, and the first time is definitely nothing special at all.

[poutsara]

(06-22-2014 09:10 AM)Hardy Daytona Wrote:  

http://www.returnofkings.com/36890/what-...%E2%80%B2s

I'll admit that I'm 24 and still a virgin. To clarify, I do have sexual experience, just not of the penetrative variety.
...
However, it's his suggestion of finding a sympathetic prostitute I took issue with.
...
This has been a subject I've debated to myself over and over again, so the conclusion I've reached for myself may not apply to anyone else here on the forum.
Basically, I can summarize with a quote from one of John Niven's books.
'Sometimes the hard way is the hard way for a reason.'

What are some of your thoughts/responses?

Don't think of this as being a difficult problem to solve.

I would not recommend prostitutes...just too much risk involved.

Sex is a recreational activity not some ultimate prize or coming of age moment. It's not a big deal.

Keep gaming, lower your standards slightly if necessary, whatever you do don't let the girl know you are a virgin.

If you have some issues at the time when it comes to it, just tell her you jerked off five times earlier that day and didn't think you would be having sex!

[Espresso]

(06-22-2014 09:10 AM)Hardy Daytona Wrote:  

My pride would be wounded

Good. F#ck your pride. It's probably the reason you are a virgin in the first place.

[J DOE]

Meh, the first girl I fucked wasn't very good looking. Looking back on it I would prefer a smoking hot hooker to that chick. You're looking too much into this. Only the female virginity is special. The male virginity is like holding a hot coal, toss that shit away ASAP before you burn your hand.

[Days of Broken Arrows]

Get a part-time job at a restaurant or the local mall. Those places are teeming with women DTF, including older women who have no problem taking younger men's virginity. I've recommended this to friends and it worked, so it's proven. If you choose a restaurant, choose someplace like an ale house with lots of waitresses. And since it's a second job you don't care about, you don't have to worry about sexual harassment BS. If they fire you, so what?

(Everything else is me rambling -- the above is my main point.)

In reading this thread and others like it, I'm starting to think that for men, losing your virginity is like learning a language or learning guitar: the longer you wait to do it, the harder it gets.

I really think guys need to lose it by 17-18 to get in on the ground level, so to speak. To any high school guys reading, the easiest way to do this is a girlfriend. Find a girl a year or two younger and get in a relationship. It will progress from there.

Even though this goes against the grain of what we say around here, the rules in high school are different and it's important to start this stuff early.

I wonder if some of the problem guys are having losing their virginity stems from the fact that the US has extended adolescence. If you're treated like a kid by your parents and society in general, that makes it easy to continue the habits you always had.

I am in my forties and back when I was in high school, adulthood was breathing down our necks, so I think we felt pressure to have girlfriends and have sex. And a lot of our parents had no problem with this because they didn't see us a "big children" but soon-to-be adults they wanted out of the house ASAP.

In related news, MarketWatch just ran an article talking about how teens don't have jobs these days because they don't want jobs. If any guys ages 16-19 are reading, I would strongly suggest bucking this trend and getting a job, esp. in a mall or restaurant. Which brings us back to the point I made at the beginning...

[Hardy Daytona]

Maybe........maybe I've been wrong this whole time.
Right now I feel like Agent Smith before he admits his revelation to Morpheus.
It's the oldest profession in the world for a reason, and it could be an opportunity for me to gain sexual confidence.
To deny myself an opportunity for experience and understanding when it's been readily available for years is not logical.
Maybe it was the pursuit and not the goal itself that I was concerning myself with. I'd become so focused, so determined on finally losing it that I lost sight of the bigger picture. Woods for the trees.
It's not the pussy I put on the pedestal so much as the moment when I could declare to the world that I wasn't a virgin anymore.
Or it's equally possible I'm still deluding myself.
Either way, I think I've crossed over now. Now that I've made the decision, it seems a little less, for lack of a better word, daunting than it did before.

[kazushu]

(06-22-2014 09:10 AM)Hardy Daytona Wrote:  

http://www.returnofkings.com/36890/what-...%E2%80%B2s
I believe not only cheapens the experience but also leaves a lasting imprint: "I had to pay for my first time."

Nothing wrong with cheap sex dude.

[Samseau]

I also refused prostitution as a way to lose my virginity. I also lost my virginity at 24.

Not only is prostitution a special sin above and beyond regular lust (since it also involves greed), there's no actual advantage to fucking a hooker.

Fact is, paying for sex is beta. If you want to fuck hot women then you need to be alpha. Ergo don't do beta actions, don't pay for sex.

The reason paying for sex is beta isn't because you're admitting defeat. The reason paying for sex is beta is because it's just masturbation. You aren't learning a god damn thing about how to seduce women. You're wasting your money and your time. Prostitutes are NOTHING like women you need to game into bed. Paying for sex gives no useful information on how to fuck regular woman.

Now, I'm not here to judge guys who use hookers. But there's nothing to be gained for fucking a hoe:

- Do you learn how to please a woman better? Nope, because prostitutes are going to fake their pleasure (if they do at all) or just focus on pleasing you (since you're paying) which means in either case no knowledge has been gained.
- Do you learn how to improve your verbal communication or body language? Nope, none is necessary, because the only action you need is a stack of ten benjamins ($200) to get her legs to spread. That's not game and you haven't learned any useful knowledge.
- Is there any validation to be gained from banging a prostitute, i.e. will fucking a prostitute improve your "inner game"? Of course not.

So yeah, don't even waste your time with whores. Just keep your eye on the ball (your game) and learn how to fuck women the player's way.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(06-24-2014 12:43 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

I also refused prostitution as a way to lose my virginity. I also lost my virginity at 24.

Not only is prostitution a special sin above and beyond regular lust (since it also involves greed), there's no actual advantage to fucking a hooker.

Fact is, paying for sex is beta. If you want to fuck hot women then you need to be alpha. Ergo don't do beta actions, don't pay for sex.

The reason paying for sex is beta isn't because you're admitting defeat. The reason paying for sex is beta is because it's just masturbation. You aren't learning a god damn thing about how to seduce women. You're wasting your money and your time. Prostitutes are NOTHING like women you need to game into bed. Paying for sex gives no useful information on how to fuck regular woman.

Now, I'm not here to judge guys who use hookers. But there's nothing to be gained for fucking a hoe:

- Do you learn how to please a woman better? Nope, because prostitutes are going to fake their pleasure (if they do at all) or just focus on pleasing you (since you're paying) which means in either case no knowledge has been gained.
- Do you learn how to improve your verbal communication or body language? Nope, none is necessary, because the only action you need is a stack of ten benjamins ($200) to get her legs to spread. That's not game and you haven't learned any useful knowledge.
- Is there any validation to be gained from banging a prostitute, i.e. will fucking a prostitute improve your "inner game"? Of course not.

So yeah, don't even waste your time with whores. Just keep your eye on the ball (your game) and learn how to fuck women the player's way.

I agree with your take on prostitution - it is meaningless and similar to masturbation. I met Omega dudes who spent 5000-10000$ a month on escorts and still remained Omegas in their 30s.

But I would grant exceptions. Learning Game is for some no easy feat. Sure - there are guys who learn fast since they sort of internalized a lot of the concepts because of their strong Inner Game, their predisposition or even looks. But for others the process might take 1-2 years of hard work before getting laid the first time.

Some professional PUAs know it and mention it since they have met those guys.

But I agree that he might give Game, a bootcamp, meet-ups with local Players or even some private sessions with a professional PUA a shot first. If they say that it might take some time in his case then he could decide for himself whether to at least allieviate the internal pressure. Because ultimately we are all different and what works for one guy may be wrong for the other.

[All or Nothing]

(06-24-2014 01:34 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

But I would grant exceptions. Learning Game is for some no easy feat. Sure - there are guys who learn fast since they sort of internalized a lot of the concepts because of their strong Inner Game, their predisposition or even looks. But for others the process might take 1-2 years of hard work before getting laid the first time.

Some professional PUAs know it and mention it since they have met those guys.

It all depends on how much you want to succeed and just to make this clear, going the hooker route is the easy way out and it will not help you become better with women.

Took me 2.5 years after reading The Game and Mystery Method to lose my virginity. Even then, I lost it to some blacked out rando white trash chick from my apartment complex. She just barely passed the boner test. I actually saw her on the streets recently and she is a hobo now if that says anything about the quality I hit. On top of that, I had people tell me straight to my face that they hate me, I was weird and creepy, and shunned from multiple social circles during that time. All of this was as I was trying to figure out how to talk to people and get laid.

The real question here is:

Hardy Daytona, how badly do you want to become successful with women?

Because, right now, it does not sound like you want it badly enough.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(06-24-2014 02:39 AM)All or Nothing Wrote:  

It all depends on how much you want to succeed and just to make this clear, going the hooker route is the easy way out and it will not help you become better with women.

Took me 2.5 years after reading The Game and Mystery Method to lose my virginity. ...

Agreed - it will not help you to become better with women. The only thing it can do is alleviate some stress or even some neuroses developing. You are still the same with women, but it might be a faster route to learn Game. P4P is no substitute for real sex (with some exceptions even with that - rarely some girls have a lot of fun, but those instances are 1:100.000).

[Hardy Daytona]

(06-24-2014 02:39 AM)All or Nothing Wrote:  

Hardy Daytona, how badly do you want to become successful with women?

With every fibre of my being.
It's just that I don't know if I can, desire notwithstanding.
I've got to give some backstory here, so bear with me. I know it's not the done thing to elaborate on personal demons, but context is important in this situation.
I didn't have any interaction with women my own age until I hit 15/16 on account of spending every stage of my education in all-boys schools.
I was so badly omega it was pathetic. I considered myself lucky to even get coffee with a group of friends where there was 1 girl present. I aspired to beta-hood because it was all I could hope for given my complete lack of experience or social nuance at the time.
This was compounded by maternal betrayal. Not going into detail on that one, but sufficed to say it left me with distrust of women. I've worked to consciously overcome those emotions, but there may be residual effects lingering in the sub-conscious.
Add to that the feelings of ineptitude when my family/friends tell me of their sexual exploits and that's about it.
I discovered the monosphere and ROK about 2 years ago and I've worked hard to absorb and digest the information and philosophy that's here and I've profited from it. I'm eating better, working out more (which is a more of a psychological benefit as it left me focus on the internal rather than the externalities for a short time) and noticing more that women are taking notice of me.
But the practical application still falls very short. I don't know how to translate what I've learned into tangible game. What lines do I use? What branching conversational paths do I use from there? What's the appropriate response to a reaction from each one? et cetera ad infinitum.

Samseau, I'm not advocating hookers as a way of learning game.
I may be ignorant, but I'm not stupid.
But any way you slice it, I need to learn the how. How do I adjust myself for entry, what positions feel comfortable, how long can I last, what motions do I use and the rest. Physical experience. To say nothing of nerves.
If I can find someone who's willing to tutor me in the basics in a comfortable environment where I don't have to worry about my performance, then I believe it would be the best start.
Is it not logical? Is it not prudent?

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(06-24-2014 07:24 AM)Hardy Daytona Wrote:  

But any way you slice it, I need to learn the how. How do I adjust myself for entry, what positions feel comfortable, how long can I last, what motions do I use and the rest. Physical experience. To say nothing of nerves.
If I can find someone who's willing to tutor me in the basics in a comfortable environment where I don't have to worry about my performance, then I believe it would be the best start.
Is it not logical? Is it not prudent?

It seems like you are making sex into too much of a deal. If you have already thoughts on how to enter her and which positions to take, then it might be pretty hard to focus on Game while you are doing cold-approaching.

You know about Red Pill for 2 years and you are getting IOIs from girls, so your physical appearance seems to be fine.

Before paying up you might consider reading a few Game 101s like Roosh's Bang, Day Bang or Krauser's works. A boot-camp by the excellent London Day Game schools, hiring of a professional coach (a male one) or contacting some RVF members in your area for wingmanship - all are good ways to go about it too. Hardly anyone here is going to judge you, since everyone knows that by the end of the next year you could already have a notch count of 20 and have some solid Game.

Also keep in mind, that it is you who decides what to do and you have to be the judge on what is best for you. Ultimately there are hadly ever anything that you regret for having done - most regrets that people have are for not having done certain things. Even a bad experience can teach you something and give you a new perspective.

[jayyrod1]

Whence I was a virgin, I thought sex to be something special shared between lovers.

This blue pill perspective caused me great mental/emotional damage.

In retrospect, had I paid for that sex or taken the pussy off of the pedestal and fucked with the impunity of an 18 year old... I may have saved myself the delusion.

A hard lesson to learn sure but at 25 and looking back, I can see the error in my ways.

You can pay or you can play but I promise you the first will.never be as good as the last. Cheers

[Pacific]

Hardy Daytona, sounds like you might want to take things one step at a time. From reading your back story, I'm getting the impression that you still very rarely socialize with girls or in mixed groups. If that is the case, I would start with socializing with girls more until that becomes more normal to you before you worry yourself with all these thoughts of how to have sex with the girl.

[Dalaran1991]

I have an experience to share with OP and others about using hired girl (hookers, masseuses etc). The bottom line is that getting a professional only helps with the right mindset.

In my beta days I had a good friend. We basically grew up together. He stayed in Vietnam while I flew off to USA then France for half of my life. Due to his family and political situation he is very depressed, and totally, and I mean totally inexperience with girl. Up until 22 he had NEVER kissed a girl in his life.

So two summers ago I came back home. I was just swallowing the redpill and I was dead on getting some experience. I met up with him to have fun and talk about game and bitches. Jesus, you can smell the desperation and downer attitude from a mile's away. So, we decide as a whole group to go to the Vietnam's version of Las Vegas. We each got a masseuse and that's how I first lose my gin card.

Not only did my friend fail to lose his gin card, he was so happy to get with a girl that he tipped her DOUBLE. When I saw him that happy I was like "so? All good?" He told me what happened and I almost bashed his face in right there.

We went back there couple of times, every time I tried a new girl with my buddies and have fun. This guy just got the SAME GIRL and always tipped her DOUBLE!Thats right, he fell in love with a fucking whore! And never banged her!!!!

I was so fucked with that I decided to get him a hooker. We each had one for my initiation party. No massage bs, just spread her leg. He was happy. I was happy. That was the first and last time I used a hooker and after that I felt much more confident with girls.

Years passed and now I'm well on my redpill way. A few months ago he messaged me saying he's got a problem. He been seeing hookers every week, burning half of his paycheck. Now he couldn't get it hard with some new girls and they told him to "never call me again!" It totally destroyed his self-esteem and he asked me what to do.


OP, if you just want to get some experience in getting sexual with a girl, I highly recommend a hooker with a gf experience. It solved tons of problems for me. Before I couldn't even hold a girl's hand; now I can smack ass and grab boobs at bar like nobody's business. I discovered that girl's bodies are no secret and not the hype porn and media made them out to be. I used that as a propeller for my game.

My friend used a hooker with the wrong mindset and now it damaged him forever.

[Hardy Daytona]

(06-24-2014 05:25 PM)Pacific Wrote:  

Hardy Daytona, sounds like you might want to take things one step at a time. From reading your back story, I'm getting the impression that you still very rarely socialize with girls or in mixed groups. If that is the case, I would start with socializing with girls more until that becomes more normal to you before you worry yourself with all these thoughts of how to have sex with the girl.

I can certainly see how you'd arrive at that conclusion but that's not the situation.
I do indeed socialize with women in mixed groups and individually. Admittedly not as much as I''d like on account of work and finances, but plans are in motion on that front.
Anyway, the first question I ask myself when seeing any new girl in spite of any IOIs, attraction, status or otherwise is "I wonder if she's single....." shortly followed by "I wonder what it'd be like to fuck her....."
Obviously this is compounded by not having experienced the sensations.
Combine that with being at the peak of my sexuality and that brings me to my current decision.

Dalaran1991, I appreciate your insight. However I've had and dealt with severe oneitis before so I doubt there'll be any lasting psychological consequences. If there are, I'll deal with them.

After all, when I'm pushing 90 and sitting on the porch of my house in a rocking chair complaining about young people's music, the last thing I want is to think 'I wish I'd done that when I had the chance.'

[Hardy Daytona]

I know it's been a while, but I've since taken action on this subject.
Would anybody like an update or would it be better to let the thread die?

[Cheetah]

^^^^

An update.

[Hardy Daytona]

At this point it's more for my own clarity of perception, but here it is.

I was able to contact a sympathizer and arrange a meeting after agreeing to the details. I had a security call shortly after I arrived to make sure that it was legitimate and that I wasn't being lured into an ambush.

(Side note: Always ask if they're a police officer to avoid entrapment or being the victim of a sting. Thanks Law & Order.)

My initial feeling was one of nervousness - the hand shaking kind. And I'm not sure how but she was able to spot it.
Anyway, there was some conversation which dragged on a little longer than I cared for and then we got down to business.
I'll forego the details but sufficed to say I got what I needed and we parted ways.

My first though after leaving was "Is that it?"
Even as I type those words the skepticism returns but I honestly can't believe how unremarkable the physical sensation of being inside a woman was.
Now there could be several factors - the lack of emotional connection, no sense of primal conquering, condom thickness.

Perhaps I'm guilt of rose-coloured vision, but everything I was told about how it wasn't so important seems to ring kind of true now.
It's like the old saying: 'Cat doesn't know the stove's hot until it gets burned.'
Well there was no way it hell I wasn't going to believe it was hot until I got my hands on it. And when I did, I just had a shoulder-shug "Huh" moment.

Now that that's over and done with, I'm working on my game as best I can.
Reading the material that's available, dressing as well as my wardrobe allows and going out to practice when my nerves don't get the best of me.

That's a point, now that I think about it. My approach anxiety hasn't gotten any better. But it hasn't gotten worse either. I'd say it's about the same. I guess it's not the light-switch moment I envisioned it to be after all.

So, that's the long and short of it.