[Sonsowey]

I am reading the book The Horse, The Wheel, and Language, about the spread of Indo European languages in prehistoric times.

It is written by an archaeologist, and in the books he outlines many prehistoric societies from Europe and gives great detail about their diet. Different societies which indeed lived side by side around 5,000 BC had drastically different diets. Some societies had already adopted agriculture, while people just nearby were still living on nearly 100% meat and fish.

Apparently, around 5,000 BC, agriculture still had not become totally commonplace throughout Europe. And I personally had always imagined that even pre-agricultural peoples had a good amount of wild plants in their diet.

But according to this book, in some parts of Europe, many people at a nearly 100% meat/fish diet up to only a few thousand years ago.

I have no idea how healthy this is, but this is interesting to hear nonetheless, as commercial "paleo" diet mythology heavily emphasizes vegetables as something our ancestors naturally ate.

Indeed, as I learn more about divergent societies, it seems the dietary message is really that we are omnivores and opportunists. I

I wonder if there are people here who have actually tried a 100% meat and fish diet. This would certainly be expensive.

[LeBeau]

(06-20-2014 09:22 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

I have no idea how healthy this is, but this is interesting to hear nonetheless, as commercial "paleo" diet mythology heavily emphasizes vegetables as something our ancestors naturally ate.

I'm not sure if that's an attempt to discredit Paleo diets, but if you did more background reading, you'd find that some of the most cited examples in Paleo writings are cultures that did in fact live off mostly meat and fish, such as the Inuit.

[Basil Ransom]

I've had times where I ate few vegetables and lots of meat and felt fine. I find it far more relevant to eliminate synthetic oils, added sugar, soy and wheat from your diet than it is to eat lots of vegetables. I do lust after a nice salad after going without, but I have a far far lower tolerance for going without meat.

If you're an adult male who lifts, eating three pounds of meat a day is easy. To say otherwise is just to out yourself as a fucking idiot. 1 lb of meat is 1000 calories roughly (fish is a lot less), and 3000 calories is about the metabolic rate of an active muscular male. I eat about 2 lbs a day plus other sources of calories, but if I had an endless supply of good meat I would clear 4 pounds a day without trouble.

The paleo diet emphasis in some quarters on vegetables is because the movement was initially insecure and didn't want to upset people by prescribing a diet whose bread and butter so to speak is red meat and saturated fat. The Mark Manson of the diet world. Worrying about vegetables when you don't eat enough to fuel yourself is like worrying about the oil your car uses when your car's gas tank is empty. It's fucking backwards, and is the province of pussies who are scared of eating 3 extra calories a day.

Vegetables are an important source of micronutrients, but entrails are even better . Give me bones and guts any day.

[Glock]

Meat these days has a very different nutritional content than it did "only a few thousand years ago." These days, animals raised for meet are fed mostly grains to make them fatten up quickly so that they can be killed at a young age to lower the time from birth to sale. Wild game is leaner and generally does not subsist on grains but on low-glycemic plant life (e.g., grass). The nutritional content of the two kinds of meat is vastly different. For instance, grass-fed beef has three times as much healthful omega-3 fatty acids as grain-fed beef.

There are similar differences when it comes to fish. Fish caught in the ocean have a different diet, and have different nutritional content when consumed as food, than fish raised in farms and fed processed food.

Unfortunately, it is not enough to simply say, "I am going to eat more meat." Modern methods of production have changed every part of our diet, including much about our meat.

[Suits]

Um, scurvy?

Glock raises an important point. Meat might have had a healthier composition when it was hunted.

[Beyond Borders]

Most of these cultures weren't just eating the meat - they were eating organs and other fatty tissues. Eggs will also do the trick.

That's what keeps you from getting deficiencies as these things have lots of vitamins and nutrients to round you out. I've read about studies like this and when they skipped the fats and organs, people started getting pretty sick.

[Don Juan Tenorio]

Human being is an omnivorous specie; the design of our teeth speaks louder that any argument of the vegetarian fundamentalist hamster or the new meat only gang:

[Beyond Borders]

^ Did you read the full OP?

(06-20-2014 09:22 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

Indeed, as I learn more about divergent societies, it seems the dietary message is really that we are omnivores and opportunists.

[redbeard]

(06-21-2014 12:42 AM)Basil Ransom Wrote:  

The paleo diet emphasis in some quarters on vegetables is because the movement was initially insecure and didn't want to upset people by prescribing a diet whose bread and butter so to speak is red meat and saturated fat. The Mark Manson of the diet world. Worrying about vegetables when you don't eat enough to fuel yourself is like worrying about the oil your car uses when your car's gas tank is empty. It's fucking backwards, and is the province of pussies who are scared of eating 3 extra calories a day.

this x10000

[Basil Ransom]

"The nutritional content of the two kinds of meat is vastly different. For instance, grass-fed beef has three times as much healthful omega-3 fatty acids as grain-fed beef."

Almost everyone in the paleo world likes to spout this, but this is pretty stupid. The fact is that the non-saturated fat content of beef fat is pretty low already - if you're concerned about taking in too much omega 6 and not enough omega 3 in your diet, eat fewer nuts and non-saturated fats, and eat more fatty fish like salmon and sardines. There may be other benefits to eating grassfed meat, but I don't take this one seriously. It's way cheaper to buy non-grassfed and supplement omega 3 via fish. Beef fat is far down the list of sources of omega 6 in the average American diet.

With meat already the most expensive part of your diet, going for meat that's double to triple the price just doesn't make sense unless you have a limitless budget. I guarantee I feel better eating 1-2 pounds of decent quality grain fed beef than a measly half a pound of grass fed beef.

" Whatever the ratios, beef tallow is not a rich source of polyunsaturated fatty acids, with only 3.45 percent in grain-fed and 1.9 percent of the total in grass-fed."
http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topic...ef-tallow/

People don't want to fix their diets. It's too haaaaaard. They want some "miracle food" they can eat once a week to make up for the damage caused by the junk food they eat the other 95% of the time. If you're a fat fuck eating lots of shitty food, it's a lot more palatable to hear "eat this to feel better," instead of "listen fat fuck, you will have to prepare all your meals on your own, and no sandwiches or sweets either. Your only respite is a Chipotle bowl or Brazilian barbeque here and there." So people rally around stuff like organic produce, fish oil and grassfed beef, instead of tossing out all the wheat, vegetable oil, soy and added sugar in their diets.

[birdie num num]

According to Stephen Ambrose, in his book Undaunted Courage, the members of Lewis and Clark's Voyage of Discovery were eating approximately 9 pounds of wild game per day, yet they were still hungry. Nine pounds! It seems hard to believe, but perhaps it's true. That must have produced some colossal shits!

[Basil Ransom]

That's because they were only eating protein, thanks to the lean quality of the game and protein cannot be your primary source of energy. There is no such thing as an effective high protein diet - paleo or primal diets are only 'high' in protein in the sense that 15-30% of calories comes from protein instead of the mainstream recommendation of 10% or so. At the bodybuilding standard of 1g per lb of bodyweight, my diet would be about 25% of calories from protein, and 50-75% from fat and the balance from carbs.

The food industry favors low protein dishes because protein is expensive while starches, seed oils and vegetable oils are cheap. The typical meal at major restaurants is high in carbohydrates and unsaturated fats. Whenever someone uses the phrase 'high protein diet' I'm inclined to doubt their authority on everything else - at best they are not careful with their words, at worst they're spreading nonsense.

See http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation

[Sonsowey]

Its ridiculous reading this book, he is talking about the type of fish they used to eat. Apparently in rivers in Eastern Europe, people used to commonly catch fish that were 12 feet long. Obviously these fish are long gone.

Imagine a prehistoric feast on a fish the size of 2 men.

[scorpion]

Eating "only meat" doesn't mean subsisting on T-bone steaks and chicken breasts. In order to survive solely on animal foods over long periods, you pretty much have to eat the entire animal. This means lots of organ meats, fat, eyeballs and even bone marrow. That's the only way you can get all the micronutrients you would otherwise get from fruits and vegetables. Eating only muscle cuts will lead to rabbit starvation, scurvy and other nutritional deficiencies.

[Sonsowey]

Scorpion, good point.

For our carnivores here, how often are you really eating offal and all the other goodies?

I have gotten beef bones cut in half the long way for marrow. Roast them, scoop it onto toast like butter. Serve with diced red onions, capers and cilantro as a garnish. So tasty.

[ElBorrachoInfamoso]

http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/ang...4-1a.shtml

It's only in modern times that we have caught up with Paleolithic humans in terms of height. Humans aren't supposed to eat all that grain crap. It takes an abundance of food and modern medicine for humans on a mostly grain diet to grow as big and strong as cavemen grew eating mostly meat.

Some people have interpreted Adam and Eve's expulsion from the garden of Eden as an allegory for humanity's transition from a hunter-gatherer lifestyle to an agricultural lifestyle. Humans enjoyed perfect health in the garden of Eden but they lived essentially like animals. When humans left the garden they gained knowledge but now were forced to suffer ailments that they never experienced in the garden.

[void]

(06-22-2014 11:56 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

Scorpion, good point.

For our carnivores here, how often are you really eating offal and all the other goodies?

I have gotten beef bones cut in half the long way for marrow. Roast them, scoop it onto toast like butter. Serve with diced red onions, capers and cilantro as a garnish. So tasty.

People fear industrial non muscle meat. I have not done research on the quality of bone marrow and organ meats of industrial raised cows, but the idea of antibiotics residues in the liver/paunch or prions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion in bone marrow/brain tissue make me fear for my health.
A cow happily raised on gras without antibiotics and a good family history is of course completely unproblematic.

[Lizard King]

Are there people and academics who think the first, or early humans at some point did not eat meat?

Are they aware that the first humans HAD to kill animals, the megafauna, just to survive?

There is a strong theory within this topic that suggests the first humans(not climate change) caused the extinction of the megafauna.

Not the link I wanted http://www.livescience.com/46081-humans-...ction.html but it will do

[OBJ Snakebite]

In his book Why We Get Fat, Gary Taubes talks about low carb diets from a historical, anthropological, and medical standpoint. He explains how the physiology works on this diet, and how it was possible to survive on a 100% non-vegetable diet without getting scurvy. He cites examples and studies of this. Fresh meat contains minerals and vitamins, and on top of that you don't flush them out of your system as much as mixed diets do, so you don't need as much to maintain good levels.
Completely carb free diets are impossible--eggs have carbs in them, for crying out loud. And prehistoric man (except for Far North people) would still pick up some berries and such.
I personally have been on a <20g of carbs per day for almost two years. Sometimes it would be difficult to go the gym, especially if you just cheated on the diet, but if you stay true it is great. You have more energy, you don't need to sleep as much because you sleep better, you are more alert, etc.

[Basil Ransom]

I eat liver regularly. I'd like to eat more organ meats, just haven't gotten around to incorporating it.

Beef shank if you can find it is a great cut. I slow cooked it without even searing it first and it tasted delicious, and it's fairly cheap at the right store - I've seen it for $2-3 a lb.

[sheesh]

People in ancient times never had to worry about today's illnesses because their main worry was to make it to the next day/ survive their 25th birthday or 30th if they were lucky. The fact that some societies may have mainly consumed meat doesn't say much about how healthy their diets were.