[Bushido]

I know there are a bunch of lawyers on this forum, but I'm looking for advice on the UK market specifically.

I'm 28 and have been considering making the change to (commercial) law for a while but it's obviously a significant time and financial commitment to make the change. That said, I think it would suit me as a profession.

1. How are prospects for a mature student looking at London/US firms?

2. What is the lifestyle/compensation like?

3. How easy is it to be seconded abroad? (To make it clear, I would NOT be intending to stay in the UK indefinitely, just for the first few years, so this is vital)

4. Is competition for training contracts in London truly as fierce as the media makes it out to be? I have a decent profile (I think) - good academics, multiple languages, international business experience etc.

[Saweeep]

My sister went through this (magic circle or whatever the hell it's called) about 7 years ago.

The most difficult thing for you, at your age, will be the 60+ hour weeks. Not only physically but mentally. I think convincing potential employers of this might be a bigger hurdle to you than academics or anything else.

I'm not convinced that wages are anywhere near good enough for the sacrifice they expect of you, tbh. £45K, or whatever as a trainee for two years isn't really enough to sustain anything but a meagre lifestyle in London (not sure where you're based now).

My sister said that it's like a process of elimination as to who makes it to the top; most get burned out after a few years and move into other things.

She's now in NYC but it still only earning £100k after dedicating 12 years of her life to law (from 18 going to uni).

What do you do now and where?

[2014]

sounds terrible to be honest.

Why are you doing it? Sounds like you just want to live abroad and earn a high salary. Plenty of other ways to do that rather than spend 4 years in hell[/code]

[Bushido]

Thanks for replying.

I'm currently based in Tokyo, working in a consulting firm. My role has got nothing to do with law but seems to be useful experience.

(06-12-2014 03:11 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

The most difficult thing for you, at your age, will be the 60+ hour weeks. Not only physically but mentally. I think convincing potential employers of this might be a bigger hurdle to you than academics or anything else.

28 is considered old by law firms? I'm only just getting going!

(06-12-2014 03:11 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

She's now in NYC but it still only earning £100k after dedicating 12 years of her life to law (from 18 going to uni).

I would say that's a pretty good salary, although it sounds like she sacrificed a lot. Not sure I know many people on that by 30.

[SydneyD]

I was literally seconds away from starting a similar thread until I found this.

[Sp5]

I don't know much about UK bar training, but knowledge of commercial law is a good entry into management positions and also consulting work.

I would advise SydneyD to finish his degree, an LLB is as good as any other uni degree and you can then consider what to do next. Don't drop out to take a TEFL course - to answer your question, you're going to find it difficult to get a job teaching English in Europe or Asia. Europe because they already have plenty of Brits.

[sportbilly]

£100k at 30....UK average salary I guess is less than 30k (I noted that your sister works in the USA..but just as a guide)....I think that is a damn fine salary for anybody, never mind a 30 year old.

I watched a documentary in the UK (albeit it was 2/3 years ago..so numbers may have changed a little).....and it said if you earn more than £40k in the UK...you were in the top 10% of earners.

At that point I started to realise how fortunate I am to have a good paying job......

[2014]

so true, in the UK 40k salary is 30k in take home pay.. http://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php

[Vigo_the_Carpathian]

First, ask yourself do you really want to be a lawyer. I know you said you're coming from a consulting background, so you likely don't have much free time as-is, but from the London and NYC lawyers that I know, they have to be on-call literally 24/7.

Some of this might be their own doing--I was an attorney at a big firm in the midwest, and by setting boundaries and letting people know when I had vacations planned well in advance, I kept it a fairly manageable 50-60 hrs/week job, and was making 6 figs (American). From what my friends tell me, it gets MUCH worse if you're in corporate and MUCH worse in a bigger city.

Honestly, when you say "I think it would suit me as a profession," it's kind of a red flag to me. It shows me you don't really know what lawyers actually do on a day-to-day basis, since if you did, you'd be balls-out one way or the other. I assume you interact with lawyers a good amount as a consultant, but a lot can get lost in the translation--after all, every butcher seems jovial enough, but you never get to see him make the sausage.

My advice? Reach out to some lawyers at large firms in cities that you're considering over LinkedIn. Offer to buy them lunch or a drink and pick their brain about what they do. Listen for signs of Stockholm Syndrome, i.e. "Yeah, it's not so bad--only billed 240 hours last month" (that means they probably were in the office for 280-300).

Short of that, just save up a huge pile of cash from consulting and then go off and do what you really want to do--no one ever got terribly rich (in any of money, time, or interpersonal relationships) by becoming a firm lawyer.

Vigo

[Que enspastic]

Don't do it.

Throwing away your life in return for a high salary is not worth it.

If you really want to be rich then start up a business that sells products or other people's services. You want to avoid any straight transaction whereby your money and your time are inseparably and directly linked.

[Chewbacon]

(06-11-2014 10:12 PM)dreambig Wrote:  

I know there are a bunch of lawyers on this forum, but I'm looking for advice on the UK market specifically.

I'm 28 and have been considering making the change to (commercial) law for a while but it's obviously a significant time and financial commitment to make the change. That said, I think it would suit me as a profession.

1. How are prospects for a mature student looking at London/US firms?

2. What is the lifestyle/compensation like?

3. How easy is it to be seconded abroad? (To make it clear, I would NOT be intending to stay in the UK indefinitely, just for the first few years, so this is vital)

4. Is competition for training contracts in London truly as fierce as the media makes it out to be? I have a decent profile (I think) - good academics, multiple languages, international business experience etc.

First of all, 28 is not too old for law. Perhaps in the UK trainee system, but certainly not for the US associate system. You need to think carefully about moving into law. Do you really want to be a lawyer? One thing to keep in mind about law is that it does not confer readily transferable skills beyond the legal sector (you can maybe extend into compliance or regulatory consulting). It is not business or finance, which are more portable.

1. If you are looking at UK/US firms, your age will not be a factor. As I said before, 28 is not old by any stretch. If you have work experience, firms will likely look favorably upon your maturity.

2. In terms of compensation and lifestyle, both the UK and US model are very taxing. You will be required to work 70-80+ hours a week if you are at a big firm (and that really is the only viable employment option in this oversaturated legal economy). As a UK trainee, you will do something like 4 years (i don't know for sure) at fairly low salary (think 50-60k I believe on a banker's hours). In the US, the salary is significantly higher - 160k USD, but you will obviously have to spend 3 years in law school to get a JD and that will cost you significant $$ as well as opportunity cost.

3. It is not hard to be seconded abroad to a place like Hong Kong if you can speak (and read and write) mandarin. Korean is also in vogue these days. Otherwise, I don't see why you would get seconded - there is not latent market need for you to be at another office if you studied law in x country.

4. I don't know what the training competition is like in the UK. I do know that if you want a coveted summer associate position in NYC at either Magic Circle or American firms, you will need to go to a top 14 law school. And even then, you should ensure that your grades in law school are as good as possible.

[Saweeep]

(06-12-2014 10:19 AM)sportbilly Wrote:  

£100k at 30....UK average salary I guess is less than 30k (I noted that your sister works in the USA..but just as a guide)....I think that is a damn fine salary for anybody, never mind a 30 year old.

I watched a documentary in the UK (albeit it was 2/3 years ago..so numbers may have changed a little).....and it said if you earn more than £40k in the UK...you were in the top 10% of earners.

At that point I started to realise how fortunate I am to have a good paying job......

People need to be careful when talking about salaries in the UK.

All of these studies only take into account PAYE employees i.e. those who work for others.

Self employment/dividends etc which is how high earners collect their £ accounts for most of the wealth here.

I think if I was doing what the OP wants I would need a quickly achievable 6 figure gbp salary to even give it a second thought.

[Bushido]

Although it's doubtless well-paid, going into law feels like the wrong choice for the time being. I'm going to pursue the entrepreneurial path and put this on the side for now.

Appreciate all the advice and information. Cheers.

[rekruler]

@Dreambig

I'm also in consulting (business/IT) currently in the US. I've lived in Asia before and I'm returning by end of year, job in hand or not. I was curious if you could share how you managed to get posted to Japan at a relatively young age?

[Bushido]

(06-17-2014 07:59 PM)rekruler Wrote:  

@Dreambig

I'm also in consulting (business/IT) currently in the US. I've lived in Asia before and I'm returning by end of year, job in hand or not. I was curious if you could share how you managed to get posted to Japan at a relatively young age?

After graduation from university, I bought a ticket to Japan and did the rounds. Took me 3 months to get a job. Eventually quit the first one and found the current company.

Hopefully you speak Japanese because it's tough here if you don't. I have no idea how people get "posted" to Japan, although with the declining Japanese economy the expat package seems to be much rarer nowadays. My conclusion is that it's mostly a vestige of the 80s and 90s.