[svenski7]

...has it worked this well for so long?

It seems to be a favorite talking point around the world. We have some fucked up policies from Mexico to the Middle East that most people find confusing. I think it's fair to say that the majority of Americans think that many areas of our "foreign policy strategy/doctrine" are misguided.

At the same time, most historians would agree that we have been a power player in world politics for the last one hundred years. One of two superpowers since 1945 and the only remaining superpower since 1992. Even if shit hits the fan, we will still be a player for the next few decades (similar to UK after 1945). So that puts at us at 150+ years or 50% of nation's total time in existence. Until that time, we will have been the richest, most powerful country/empire in the history of the world (yes, there are poor people here, too).

But what if we compare foreign policy to an iceberg. What we see, hear and feel strongly about (the visible) is 10%. What's unheard and unseen (under water) is 90%.

And I'm not saying "the best policy" in the sense of what's good for people and democracy and furry animals. It may very well be what's good for multinational corporations who fund political campaigns in the US. My point is that this status quo (NWO if you will) has been on a pretty level course for quite some time now and that's what people truly want despite their cries for peace in the Middle East and Open Borders and Kumbaya national anthems.

[rottenapple]

As you said yourself, it works for companies and multinationals. This for instance is very clear in Israel-Palestine conflict. The reason why the US keeps their power is because it spends a ridiculous amount on military expenses. IMO there are better ways to spend that money and this policy is partly why the US is not the richest or most educated or happiest country in the world. As an individual would you prefer to live in the country that is the most powerful or in a country that provides you with the best service?

[kosko]

America likely won't last "a few more decades" as a Tier 1 superpower. It's Suez moment like what happens to Britain when America basically thuged it down to a Tier 2 from slapping it into shape could easily come tomorrow of China says strait up to fuck off with its reserves. America was a Tier 1 power from 1945 onwards but it's hard too see it in the same position in 2045.

Being a Uni-Power has made America sloppy and gready with it's policies. Post the Cold War America has been completely hi-jacked by Multi-nationals and AIPAC whom steer American activity more then America does itself for her own interests. The UK in its proem was so strategic and manipulative, it plotted each time how to project itself in any situation to make sure it always increased in power each time. "1 and 3" was a strategy they used to either help or go against it's first and third rivals in any conflict so that "2" would be dropped or propelled and then the cycle would repeat. This always kept the UK in the top 3 for superpower positions for 100 years.The USA was propped up after WWI by this very strategy, and it had a indirect influence on USA meddling in Japan affairs prior to Peal Harbor.

The USA isn't strategic and tactical like the British were. The USA as a sole power become bumbling and lazy. It's only strategy is to destabilize others to make them appear stronger but all to does is drain more resources to try and contain those situations in the first place. Plus the USA is a petro-empire. Oil gave it the Cart Blanche ability to spend (waste) obscene amounts of money on war tech it will never use. Yes the USA has a massive military advtage but they have shown time and time again that they struggle with conventional and rigged asymmetrical warfare which is still what the majority of people on this globe partake in. Plus with this marriage to oil they are ride or die to it's prices and access which are both unstable.

American empire is on egg shells. America would not of fared well in Syria, and I don't believe it could go into Iran and sizably "win" a war. As Iran would have to many ghetto tactics to completely cut America off at the knees I'm regards to oil which the empire fuels itself on. Russia? No chance. The Empire has become so bloated that it's basically a big fat strong guy whom posses great power but has no agility to use it soundly.

[svenski7]

rottenapple Wrote:

As you said yourself, it works for companies and multinationals. This for instance is very clear in Israel-Palestine conflict. The reason why the US keeps their power is because it spends a ridiculous amount on military expenses. IMO there are better ways to spend that money and this policy is partly why the US is not the richest or most educated or happiest country in the world. As an individual would you prefer to live in the country that is the most powerful or in a country that provides you with the best service?

I haven't seen much arguing that the US is indeed the world's richest nation (in sum) and by extent thus far in human history. It's with the 0.1% East Coast families.

My point is that whenever I travel -- especially to Europe -- I get a fucking earful about how we are fucking up.

And then I look at:
-UK
-France
-Germany
-Spain

I think about some of the infamous foreign policy decisions those countries have made in the last 100 years and the trajectory of their (former) empires and say to myself, "Should I even listen to this constant blathering nonsense?"

[svenski7]

(04-16-2014 10:48 AM)kosko Wrote:  

The USA isn't strategic and tactical like the British were. The USA as a sole power become bumbling and lazy.

This is what I'm looking for. When do you think it became "bumbling and lazy?"

I think there is something to that.

On the other hand, I think by-and-large the calculations made at the federal level have continued to pay fair dividends to the enfranchised upper middle and rich classes — the same people who have the time and resources to call their legislators or join grassroots movements and march on DC. This would include private citizens as well as political groups (PACs) and multinationals.

[Rutting Elephant]

http://m.thomhartmann.com/bigpicture/ame...-democracy

"Washington doesn't give a crap about you....unless you're a billionaire bankster or oil tycoon. How did our democracy get so corrupted by money and greed"

Not spamming. I think Thom is a genuine nice guy who as a rule keeps it civil despite being on what many consider "the loony left."

[3am]

(04-16-2014 10:48 AM)kosko Wrote:  

America likely won't last "a few more decades" as a Tier 1 superpower. It's Suez moment like what happens to Britain when America basically thuged it down to a Tier 2 from slapping it into shape could easily come tomorrow of China says strait up to fuck off with its reserves. America was a Tier 1 power from 1945 onwards but it's hard too see it in the same position in 2045.

Being a Uni-Power has made America sloppy and gready with it's policies. Post the Cold War America has been completely hi-jacked by Multi-nationals and AIPAC whom steer American activity more then America does itself for her own interests. The UK in its proem was so strategic and manipulative, it plotted each time how to project itself in any situation to make sure it always increased in power each time. "1 and 3" was a strategy they used to either help or go against it's first and third rivals in any conflict so that "2" would be dropped or propelled and then the cycle would repeat. This always kept the UK in the top 3 for superpower positions for 100 years.The USA was propped up after WWI by this very strategy, and it had a indirect influence on USA meddling in Japan affairs prior to Peal Harbor.

The USA isn't strategic and tactical like the British were. The USA as a sole power become bumbling and lazy. It's only strategy is to destabilize others to make them appear stronger but all to does is drain more resources to try and contain those situations in the first place. Plus the USA is a petro-empire. Oil gave it the Cart Blanche ability to spend (waste) obscene amounts of money on war tech it will never use. Yes the USA has a massive military advtage but they have shown time and time again that they struggle with conventional and rigged asymmetrical warfare which is still what the majority of people on this globe partake in. Plus with this marriage to oil they are ride or die to it's prices and access which are both unstable.

American empire is on egg shells. America would not of fared well in Syria, and I don't believe it could go into Iran and sizably "win" a war. As Iran would have to many ghetto tactics to completely cut America off at the knees I'm regards to oil which the empire fuels itself on. Russia? No chance. The Empire has become so bloated that it's basically a big fat strong guy whom posses great power but has no agility to use it soundly.

Another Kosko US hatin' - fuck dude.. if America is on "egg shells' what the hell do you think the rest of the globe is on?

[kosko]

^^^
The fall is a lot harder from the top of the ladder then from the bottom....

[3am]

(04-16-2014 11:41 AM)kosko Wrote:  

^^^
The fall is a lot harder from the top of the ladder then from the bottom....

The hate is a lot stronger when you're on top.

[Saga]

Even the clumsiest foreign policy can work so long as there's sufficient force behind its initiatives...the problem is that such applications bring ill will and resentment which make diplomatic solutions less practicable. This in turn produces a circular conundrum: force becomes not only a habit but an increasingly solitary option, and the fortunes of the state become inseparable from the treacherous vicissitudes of martial strength. The story of Athens and Melos, and Athens' collapse soon after, illustrate the issue rather well.

US foreign policy's greatest fault isn't stupidity (though there certainly are instances of that) but rather hubris, I think.

[birdie num num]

For a thought provoking critique of US foreign policy and American empire, read some books by Chalmers Johnson.

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-au...%20Johnson

Andrew Bacevich is another author who's books are worth reading.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1...vich+books

[WalterBlack]

(04-16-2014 10:53 AM)svenski7 Wrote:  

rottenapple Wrote:

As you said yourself, it works for companies and multinationals. This for instance is very clear in Israel-Palestine conflict. The reason why the US keeps their power is because it spends a ridiculous amount on military expenses. IMO there are better ways to spend that money and this policy is partly why the US is not the richest or most educated or happiest country in the world. As an individual would you prefer to live in the country that is the most powerful or in a country that provides you with the best service?

I haven't seen much arguing that the US is indeed the world's richest nation (in sum) and by extent thus far in human history. It's with the 0.1% East Coast families.

My point is that whenever I travel -- especially to Europe -- I get a fucking earful about how we are fucking up.

And then I look at:
-UK
-France
-Germany
-Spain

I think about some of the infamous foreign policy decisions those countries have made in the last 100 years and the trajectory of their (former) empires and say to myself, "Should I even listen to this constant blathering nonsense?"

Every country has done both stupid and wise things over there years. The UK stayed out of the Vietnam war, but then invaded Iraq with the US in 2003. After that the UK became a target for Islamic terrorists.

I think the US will stay on top for a long time to come. The best and brightest from all over the world want to come and live in the US. Look at Silicon Valley – is there anywhere else like that in the world?
The US military is easily the most technologically advanced. I wouldn’t be surprised if in a few years they launch satellites which could launch lasers from space. That way they can attack anybody at any time – that means countries are even less likely to fuck with them.

In my opinion the Chinese will never go to war with the US, there’s too much trade and ties between the two countries. A lot of the richest people in China have US passports, or their family members study or live in the US.

[Orion]

American foreign policy is not stupid - it is superb.

American politics both within and on the out, is handled by very well educated, motivated and hard working elite called administration. They do everything. President, senator, and others are just there to show up and read what is written on the paper, and to use populist rhetoric to pass the message of administration, elite and other interest circles to the masses.

American foreign policy is calculated, well orchestrated, persuasive, thoughtful, advanced, stubborn, assertive and complex. American allies enjoy American leadership, because Americans get shit done. In a brutal or sneaky and dirty way, but it is usually done.

So what's the problem ?

Well, the only thing that divides people that would otherwise seem as like minded - principles. People hate principles that guide American diplomacy and foreign policy. While majority of the world can agree that west enjoys highest level of living standard, development and technological advancement in the world, very few can approve of destructive and senseless ways that west is trying to get grip of the world, and very few are content with giving up the entire world to a cult of one-percenters with dystopian world-view.

[player]

This was posted at Heartiste recently: The Fate of Empires - Sir John Glubb

Glubb analyzed multiple empires and how they rose and fell.

Sir John Glubb Wrote:

The stages of the rise and fall of great nations seem to be:
The Age of Pioneers (outburst)
The Age of Conquests
The Age of Commerce
The Age of Affluence
The Age of Intellect
The Age of Decadence.

Decadence is marked by:
Defensiveness
Pessimism
Materialism
Frivolity
An influx of foreigners
The Welfare State
A weakening of religion.

Decadence is due to:
Too long a period of wealth and power
Selfishness
Love of money
The loss of a sense of duty

In short: a civilization must have lots of character and virtue to become hugely successful. But once it becomes a prosperous empire this virtue is no longer a necessity, and its people increasingly turn to decadence and hedonism - leading to a decline.

The ills we speak of - feminism, liberalism, progressivism, entitlement - are symptoms of the decline, not the cause. As Heartiste wrote, Prosperity Is The Problem. Prosperity allows us to temporarily ignore ancient wisdom and common sense, and allow foolishness like feminism to take root. But nature cannot be subverted forever, and the decadent chickens will come home to roost.

Sir John Glubb found that empires tend to rise and fall within 250 years. The United States is 238 this year...

[TigerMandingo]

Yea, i dont think there's anything stupid about US foreign policy. Like the previous poster said, it's well-calculated and coordinated. You have people like Henry Kissinger, Bzrezinski, and all of those "think tanks" whose job is to find new ways to project US power. Now, whether or now it is a sensible/moral foreign policy is a whole different question, and most reasonable people would argue that it has had disastrous and barbaric consequences throughout the world.

[HeyPete]

I don't agree with some of the foreign policy, but it pisses me off when other countries complain.

I was watching a documentary on the Bosnian war. And I know most people didn't know who was fighting fucking who over there. Or could tell the difference between a Serb, Bosnian or anyone else in that region.

Anyway, this woman was wailing that her sons were killed and was angry that the US didn't intervene.

So, in her mind it's OK for some young Americans to come over to her shit hole and lose their lives, so her sons can be safe. Eat shit lady. Sorry your sons died, but I'm not risking my life or my family or friends lives for your sorry asses. Fix your own damn mess.

[Switch]

Ever since Roosevelt (Teddy) passed the Roosevelt Corralary the US has had a pretty unique foreign policy, one that has led the US to dominance on the world stage. The US first became the world's super power after it waited for a long time to get involved in WWI for economic interests. It waited until all of the powerful European Nations were crushed, and then came in and fought for its allies. After the war was over the US was the only Industrial nation that wasn't decimated by war. Same with after WWII. The US now fights whenever and wherever they can protect economic interests, and with MNC's now allowed to donate unlimited money to Political PACS, expect that trend to continue.

[jimukr104]

I think our foreign policy is fucked up mostly because it is being run by un elected think tank scholars...and the NEO CON agenda.
Although Obama was suppose to be anti Neo Con..he has surrounded himself with them. Nuland for example and even Kerry, a democrat, has shown himself to be part of this warmonger cult.

Bzrezinski,? Yeah the Polish Russian hater who is educating the Neo Con about Gas/oil warmongering.

[Monty_Brogan]

>American empire is on egg shells. America would not of fared well in Syria, and I don't believe it could go into Iran and sizably "win" a war. As Iran would have to many ghetto tactics to completely cut America off at the knees I'm regards to oil which the empire fuels itself on. Russia? No chance. The Empire has become so bloated that it's basically a big fat strong guy whom posses great power but has no agility to use it soundly

You don't understand our air power do you? If the gloves truly came off we would COMPLETELY own the skies above any country listed. After that it would get dirty on both sides, but it would get done. No man who has ever been to war would want our country to get involved in an all out war against a nation state though; I would like to think our citizens, politicians, and top military commanders are on the same page too, so it's kind of irrelevant to spit ball it.

And Iran would not cut us off at the knees in regards to oil Somewhere in the vicinity of 13% of our oil comes from the middle east. We would feel the pain at the pump until it started flowing again, but we would be just fine.

Our country has made mistakes in the past when it comes to foreign policy, but I believe ultimately we do far more good than harm.

It sure is easy to hate on the best though

[Walderschmidt]

We've got the most guns and the balls to use them.

And the most nukes.

But that just means a falling out is stretched out, not delayed indefinitely.

Wald

[Sp5]

The USA has two big oceans between it and any rival, with a navy loaded with nuclear submarines. In the end, it can dominate North America, even the whole Western Hemisphere without breaking a sweat. Its main mistake is to try to dominate the Eastern Hemisphere.

[tomtud]

Possibly the danger is from within. But it's foreign policy will bring animosity and problems on American land. The vietnm war demonstrations to the Boston bombing-911 etc.

[Foolsgo1d]

I will never understand why people see the USA as the only super power on this planet.

China & Russia have vast reserves, large populations but keep themselves to themselves. The US throws its weight around to secure resources which is a means to an end and to protect Europe from the RUssians.

However I dont see how a superpower can be convincing when it can be made to back down by a past-its-prime enemy over Syria and even now Ukraine and Iran puts the jitters in US foreign policy makers.

The wars fought in Iraq and Afghanistan have made the US sloppy in relations and thinking you can plonk several thousand troops and armour in an enemies back yard without possible reprisals when they can easily match you is certainly asking for trouble.

Its like the two big, quiet dudes in school are seen as easy targets but it doesn't mean they're sitting targets for any old bully tactic. I've seen plenty of that in the news recently.

[TigerMandingo]

The US military seems to me is well-equipped, technologically speaking, but does not fare well against guerrilla tactics/ground warfare (Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan). Besides, the US constantly picks on much weaker nations to beat on. Not impressed. Bombing the shit out of Cambodia (which occurred during the Vietnam war) does not a great army make. It would be like Ronnie Coleman going to the gym and bench pressing a hipster.

But all in all, yes, you guys kick ass.

[bojangles]

Lol at the guy talking about air power. Let me know when American planes come up against advanced air defence *cough* Russia *cough*. Your foreign policy is shit, it doesn't protect your interests like you think it does. It increases your debt and when the owner of your debt dumps it. You'll suddenly start to realise that all those years of prodding foreign countries due to military might built up on debt is coming back to haunt you.

Think of it this way, how did America become te worlds biggest economy and superpower? Think of the years between the world wars, who did America trade with then?