[simoska]

Hitting all muscle groups 2-3x week is the way to go for natural lifters. I assume you do not go to failure each set.

[DarkKing]

Most lifting advice is bro science.

Also scientific studies on this subject are often contradictory and depend on how they were set up and what was taken into account. You can have two studies coming to opposite conclusions. For example there was a study that showed that you can do very high-rep exercises and still grow as long as you go to failure on them.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404827/

[alphamous]

(04-15-2014 05:41 PM)berserk Wrote:  

Is it ok to train delts 3 times a week if you rotate between rear, front and side?

It's hard to train one without the other due to contagion tension so i'd rather suggest that you do all your shoulder training in the same routine 2-3 times per week.

[alphamous]

(04-16-2014 10:34 AM)DarkKing Wrote:  

Most lifting advice is bro science.

Also scientific studies on this subject are often contradictory and depend on how they were set up and what was taken into account. You can have two studies coming to opposite conclusions. For example there was a study that showed that you can do very high-rep exercises and still grow as long as you go to failure on them.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404827/

Bro science per se is not exclusively a bad thing although it has a bad rep. A lot, if not most of the stuff that both old school bodybuilders and successful coaches do today is based on experience rather than pure science.

Scientific studies will always lack behind experience so you shouldn't discard something simply because it doesn't have scientific backing "yet".

[DarkKing]

(04-16-2014 11:23 AM)alphamous Wrote:  

(04-16-2014 10:34 AM)DarkKing Wrote:  

Most lifting advice is bro science.

Also scientific studies on this subject are often contradictory and depend on how they were set up and what was taken into account. You can have two studies coming to opposite conclusions. For example there was a study that showed that you can do very high-rep exercises and still grow as long as you go to failure on them.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404827/

Bro science per se is not exclusively a bad thing although it has a bad rep. A lot, if not most of the stuff that both old school bodybuilders and successful coaches do today is based on experience rather than pure science.

Scientific studies will always lack behind experience so you shouldn't discard something simply because it doesn't have scientific backing "yet".

Yes I agree. Most of what I do is based on bro science.

[simoska]

Alphamous, I only linked the summary of the that study. My coach has the full pdf so I might have a look at it when I see him. I am not trying to knock the 8-12 range, It has its benefits and place in weight lifting but for novice/intermediate lifters its a path of slow gains. I saw my younger brother training last week. He's been doing some bro split that his friends found on bb.com or some other website. After 6 months of training he is still not able to do 15 pull ups or bench press 60 kg Ofc I kicked his ass and put him on 5x5 program.

Heres my take on bro science: you have to choose who you take advice from carefully. Steroids allow too many inexperienced guys to get above average physiques and preach their sometimes even dangerous bro science to young and uneducated masses.

[alphamous]

Sorry Simoska but I have to disagree with you there. It's exactly the novice that will benefit the most from the 8-12 range partly because it helps "grease the groove" as you say, to achieve proper form which is a prerequisite for strength. I'm not saying it's the only way to go, but calling it a way to slow size gains is flat out wrong. Of course, if we're talking purely strength gains, then yeah, switching the a lower rep range is preferred as soon as you have some good technique down.

Couldn't agree with you more on your take on bro-science though, and I for one love the 5x5 so nice move with your brother

[simoska]

alphamous, are you not confusing novice with a beginner? I think a beginner is someone who does not know how to squat, deadlift or bench press and I agree that he would benefit from higher rep ranges for a month or two just to get the feel for training and work on his form without high injury risk. A novice would be someone like my brother. He knows how to perform those movements with good form but he is not experienced enough to teach it to someone else and his numbers are too small to classify him as an intermediate.

[alphamous]

Novice/beginner sounds thee same to me, so sure. Bottom line for me is this: for size gains & hypertrophy the 8-12 range is most suitable, strength & size gains 4-6 is ideal, pure strength, 1-3 reps. This is not dependent on your strength level however stronger guys will get a bigger hypertrophy response from a lower rep scheme than guys that can't even squat their body weight.

Do I prefer 8-12? Absolutely not, to me size without strength is absolutely useless, so personally I rarely use or prescribe anything higher than 8 reps for the true work sets. Anything higher than 8 reps is used for assistance work only.

Get strong and size will follow.

[berserk]

(04-15-2014 05:41 PM)berserk Wrote:  

Is it ok to train delts 3 times a week if you rotate between rear, front and side?

I would not recommend it because it is not really necessary. Over head press (OHP) hits all three heads of the deltoid as well as using other push muscles and core; it really is the king of upper body exercises. Sets of 5x5 is plenty once or twice a week along with your isolation's.

However, for what you asking and assuming you are a beginner (you are beginner if you have only been working out for 1.5 to 2 years) i suggest hitting muscle groups as much as possible and focusing on strength gains. If not are not lifting heavier weights you will not get bigger. makes sense if you think about it.

A routine like this may be an option you could consider.

Monday: (Upper body strength)
Bench press 5x5
Weighted pull ups 5x5
OHP 5x5
T-bar row 4-5x5
Accessory work:
Bicep curls 3x8
Skull crushers 3x8

Tuesday: (Lower body strength)
Squats 5x5
Deadlifts 5x1 (Practice form if not used to deadlifts otherwise you will become a permanent resident at snap city)
Decline leg press 5x5 or weighted lunges
Accessory work:
Calf raises 4x12

Thursday: (Pull muscles Hypertrophy)
Weighted pull ups 5x5
T-bar row 4-5x8-12
Bent over row 5x10
Lat pull down 3x8
seated row 3x8
Straight arm pull downs 3x10

Bicep curls 3x8
Hammer curls 3x10

Friday: (push muscle hypertrophy)
Bench press 5x5
OHP 5x5
Incline DB press 3x8-10
Dumbbell shoulder press 3x8-10
Incline cable flys 3x10
Weighted dips 4x8-12
Front row 4x10
Skull crushers 3x8
Triceps push down 3x10-12


Saturday depends on what you really are after you could either down a full arms workout or doing a legs hypertrophy day.

Hope this helped!

[berserk]

^ Nice, thanks, let me look at that closely. I wouldn't say I am a beginner when my lifts are all in Intermediate moving into Advanced on the strength standards, I just have very little experience with hypertrophy programs.

[Tideride]

Layne Norton (phd known body builder and powerlifter) is your guy-

http://www.simplyshredded.com/mega-featu...-2011.html

[samsamsam]

(04-17-2014 01:46 AM)alphamous Wrote:  

Novice/beginner sounds thee same to me, so sure. Bottom line for me is this: for size gains & hypertrophy the 8-12 range is most suitable, strength & size gains 4-6 is ideal, pure strength, 1-3 reps. This is not dependent on your strength level however stronger guys will get a bigger hypertrophy response from a lower rep scheme than guys that can't even squat their body weight.

Do I prefer 8-12? Absolutely not, to me size without strength is absolutely useless, so personally I rarely use or prescribe anything higher than 8 reps for the true work sets. Anything higher than 8 reps is used for assistance work only.

Get strong and size will follow.

So if I am reading this right - more reps bigger size? I have been having this issue where I think I look small for my weight. I have asked a few people to guess my weight and they are usually 15 to 20 lbs off. I have been trying to slim down a bit (not overweight at all just a little tightening). But I focus on heavier weight and fewer reps. But there are guys in the gym who look bigger and are weaker. I am not trying to get into fights, but I know having some size helps. Can't really say," You are underestimating me by 20 lbs and I can bench 225 12 times without a spot." I weigh around 185 to 188. But look 170 to 175.

Sorry for the ramble. But I am curious how get more muscle mass. One option seems to eat more but I'll add fat also Any input would be appreciated.

[berserk]

A reason why guys may look bigger but not be very strong is simply that they use steroids.

[simoska]

Samsamsam, some guys appear to be bigger because of their frame size/bone structure. Also some bodybuilders look smaller in the offseason because higher bodyfat % hides their shredded muscles and veins. A lot of true natural bodybuilders do not even look like they lift in regular clothes, the only reason they look so good on stage is because of low bodyfat %. So if you want to appear bigger try cutting down to 8-12% BF or simply put on some quality muscle mass. OR start wearing size S tshirts

[CaptainChardonnay]

I've been going by this:
http://i.stack.imgur.com/5zKlz.png

(dont know how to attach it into the post)

[alphamous]

(04-18-2014 02:47 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

(04-17-2014 01:46 AM)alphamous Wrote:  

Novice/beginner sounds thee same to me, so sure. Bottom line for me is this: for size gains & hypertrophy the 8-12 range is most suitable, strength & size gains 4-6 is ideal, pure strength, 1-3 reps. This is not dependent on your strength level however stronger guys will get a bigger hypertrophy response from a lower rep scheme than guys that can't even squat their body weight.

Do I prefer 8-12? Absolutely not, to me size without strength is absolutely useless, so personally I rarely use or prescribe anything higher than 8 reps for the true work sets. Anything higher than 8 reps is used for assistance work only.

Get strong and size will follow.

So if I am reading this right - more reps bigger size? I have been having this issue where I think I look small for my weight. I have asked a few people to guess my weight and they are usually 15 to 20 lbs off. I have been trying to slim down a bit (not overweight at all just a little tightening). But I focus on heavier weight and fewer reps. But there are guys in the gym who look bigger and are weaker. I am not trying to get into fights, but I know having some size helps. Can't really say," You are underestimating me by 20 lbs and I can bench 225 12 times without a spot." I weigh around 185 to 188. But look 170 to 175.

Sorry for the ramble. But I am curious how get more muscle mass. One option seems to eat more but I'll add fat also Any input would be appreciated.

I know where you're coming from, it's very common for guys who focus on strength to look smaller than their bodybuilder-focused peers (although Simoska is also right that you genetics ie bonestructure etc. plays a part).

The common guidelines are these for choosing your rep range:
1-3 reps = strength gains
4-6 reps = strength and size gains
8-12 reps = size gains
13+ = endurance

When you want to built size you want to have a high training volume (SETS x REPS), but even more important than the number of reps is how much rest you take between sets. This is the MOST overlooked part of training.

Without going into too much detail on CNS recovery, you should choose your rest according to the following:

30 sec - 1 min = improve endurance (lactic acid tolerance)
1-2 min = hypertrophy (muscle gains)
3-5 min = Strength

Keep in mind your rest periods are about recharging your CNS (central nervous system), but unlike your heart and lungs you can't feel how "recovered" your CNS is, so don't play your rest periods by ear, time it.

Of course, everything always comes down to how you're eating. If you're not gaining weight when trying to built muscle, you're not eating enough. period.

Hope that answers your question, let me know if you need to know more.

[DarkKing]

As Alphamous stated above, the most important thing about a hypertrophy program is what you are eating. You need to eat in order to grow. The rep ranges are not as important. A beginner will most likely experience growth both in strength and size with any type of program, however once you are in the intermediate stage, you might want to change things up a bit and experiment with the rep ranges. What I found what works for me in terms of getting bigger was the 8 to 10 rep range. For others it might be different.

I always stress that since everyone is different, you should listen to what others are saying, but apply it to your own situation and experiment a bit. What works for someone else might not always work for you.

[Mick Gotham]

Something I've had pretty good success with, sticking along the lines of hypertrophy with heavy compounds, is the Ultimate Meathead Cycle from Military Athlete. Hypertrophy based around functional fitness, a 3.5 week plan that will get you big as long as you're familiar with basic compound and oly lifts and only $25. http://militaryathlete.com/page.php?page...cart_ID=79

I've followed MA on and off and have used it to prep for deployments and intense military schools. Hasn't failed me yet and there are plans for everything from work capacity, to running, and strength. The site is very informative and in the FAQ they explain their principles and training philosophy. I have no financial interest in this site at all and if you're interested in a sample workout, PM me and I'll send it to you. I won't send the full plan because I don't want to cut into this guy's business, especially since it is very affordable.

Just my .02