[Irminsul]

Anyone have any advice on how to get a job in Asia? I mean something other than teaching English, obviously. I've been to Asia before (studied Chinese in China, and backpacked through SE Asia), but that was on my parents' dime. I also have a degree (MS in mechanical engineering), and I can speak/read Mandarin Chinese moderately well (HSK level 6 if you know what that means, and my pronunciation is very good), but I have no real non-menial work experience. I'm pretty smart, and have no real doubt that I can learn to do pretty much any job, but my main problem is that I'm socially kinda retarded. Networking and all that is pretty much a mystery to me and I have like zero connections right now. (Did meet a few people in China but they could never hook me up with anything.)

Lots of people suggest working for a few years at a job in the US and then getting transferred over there, but I have no idea how to do that either. Basically I just want to be in China or SE Asia and be making like $2k+ per month. Anyone got any tips?

[OSL]

http://www.transitionsabroad.com

http://www.workingoverseas.com

[oldnemesis]

(01-16-2011 05:53 AM)Irminsul Wrote:  

Lots of people suggest working for a few years at a job in the US and then getting transferred over there, but I have no idea how to do that either.

If I were you, I'd postponed it until you have some real work experience and stash some cash. A degree alone won't bring you anywhere nowadays unless it is from a top 10 university. For a company it costs money (often a lot of money) to send someone overseas, so you need to show some good skills before you go.

So get a job here in US, slave for a year or two, stash some money. Then start looking for a job in the same industry, paying detailed attention to the companies which have branches in China or which do business there. Send them your resume, mention your fluent Chinese and ability to travel and live there for a while. Sooner or later you'll get there if you try hard enough.

There are, of course, more options, but in my opinion they are worse. You can go to China and try to find a job in China company. This is doable, but the salary/conditions would probably be quite shitty, as there is a lot of competition from locals. And you'll likely have to deal with all the immigration issues (work permits, etc) yourself. Or you can try to find a job in a US located in China directly - this would be a good option, but I found those are much harder to pull unless you have some solid work experience in the field. Same reason as above, there is a lot of locals competing for that job.

[OSL]

Oldnemesis is right: work experience trumps all. On top of that, you are highly unlikely to find work in China unless you are physically in China and networking, in which case it become significantly easier. In fact, I would say if you speak decent Chinese and are physically in China, hitting the pavement, you are way more likely to find a job that you would if you were doing the same thing in the US.

I know this because I recently left Beijing and got some interview offers upon arriving back in the US. When they realized I didn't physically live in China anymore, they said that they were open to a phone interview but it was clear that they were not as interested anymore. A lot of it is them wanting to avoid the gigantic pain in the ass of setting up getting you over there to work for them when there are a lot of other young savvy American graduates in China who are ready to start working in two days.

There are many companies, mostly UK and Euro, that offer 2-3 year long graduate programs that have international rotations. One example is Thomson Reuters, which is an anomaly because it is a US company and not Euro. Basically they will have you start in your home office and give you the option of being transferred for periods of 6-8 months. These positions are highly competitive though, as I am currently experiencing.

The combination of MS in Engineering and reasonable Chinese is a solid foundation. It is unfortunate that you don't have a network in China, which seems strange considering you spent time there learning Chinese.

I suggest you do the following:

1. Set up a clean looking linkedin profile with a CV and join groups with a name like "China Engineering Jobs"
2. Call your Univ's career services and alumni services offices and ask them to put you in touch with alums who are operating in China.
3. Take a long look through the links I posted above, which have massive amounts of links and resources you can use in your search

[OSL]

(01-16-2011 05:53 AM)Irminsul Wrote:  

Anyone have any advice on how to get a job in Asia? I mean something other than teaching English, obviously. I've been to Asia before (studied Chinese in China, and backpacked through SE Asia), but that was on my parents' dime. I also have a degree (MS in mechanical engineering), and I can speak/read Mandarin Chinese moderately well (HSK level 6 if you know what that means, and my pronunciation is very good), but I have no real non-menial work experience. I'm pretty smart, and have no real doubt that I can learn to do pretty much any job, but my main problem is that I'm socially kinda retarded. Networking and all that is pretty much a mystery to me and I have like zero connections right now. (Did meet a few people in China but they could never hook me up with anything.)

Lots of people suggest working for a few years at a job in the US and then getting transferred over there, but I have no idea how to do that either. Basically I just want to be in China or SE Asia and be making like $2k+ per month. Anyone got any tips?

wrong post, my bad

[Irminsul]

So basically: get work experience in the US, then go to China and look for jobs in that industry? Sending me over there doesn't seem like it should be an issue for a company since I can get my own apartment, visa, etc. (I've done it all myself before.)

I did meet people in China, but most were either other foreign students, English teacher types, or girls I hooked up with, none of whom were particularly valuable as far as connections go. One of the girls did introduce me to some guy who was setting up a hedge fund in Jiaxing, he offered me something where they would teach me to trade with my own money and then if I did well, they could offer me a paid job managing other people's money, but it sounded like a pretty screwy situation. I met a few professionals and business owners (both expats and Chinese), including one big shot American investor, but nothing came out of any of that either.

Like I said, social networking ability is not one of my natural strengths. People talk about "networking" but I am not sure exactly what people do, in concrete terms, to acquire the social connections they need to get jobs. Obviously you need to meet people who are pretty far up the hierarchy for them to be very useful and that strikes me as being difficult to do, starting from a low position.

I looked at the links... most of it is just stuff about what it's like to live overseas or how to get jobs teaching English, which is not that helpful really in my case.

[OSL]

"Sending me over there doesn't seem like it should be an issue for a company since I can get my own apartment, visa, etc. (I've done it all myself before.)"

Yeah in theory it shouldn't be an issue. But it is. Also, if you want to get a work visa for China you can't "get it yourself." You need to be invited by a company. You probably got a student visa last time.

There are millions of recent univ grads with masters degrees from Tsinghua who speak English who are looking for the same positions as you. There are also plenty of young American expat twenty-somethings who are getting internal referrals, speak fluent Chinese, and are already hitting the pavement in BJ/SH. Trust me, it matters, even if it doesn't seem like it does.

"I met a few professionals and business owners (both expats and Chinese), including one big shot American investor, but nothing came out of any of that either."

Yeah that hedge fund thing sounds sketchy. It sounds more like a prop desk than a hedge fund actually. Regardless, it is sketchy.

"People talk about "networking" but I am not sure exactly what people do, in concrete terms, to acquire the social connections they need to get jobs."

I sent you a PM about this.

[oldnemesis]

(01-17-2011 12:57 AM)Irminsul Wrote:  

So basically: get work experience in the US, then go to China and look for jobs in that industry? Sending me over there doesn't seem like it should be an issue for a company since I can get my own apartment, visa, etc. (I've done it all myself before.)

This IS an issue for the company, because not only it has to take care of your visa and stuff (it is extremely unlikely they'd let you do it yourself as it might get the company into a trouble), it also has to find someone in US to replace you. And if you do not perform there as they expected, they'd have to go through the hassle of bringing you back, and finding someone else to replace you in China - and on timely manner. That is why I have said that getting transferred overseas is a big deal for the company, and you need to show a reliable track record. In my field the company would rather send someone who doesn't speak Chinese at all but has proven themselves as a good problem solver - interpreters are cheap there, so your language skills may be less valuable for the company than you think. Your work experience would be much more important.

Also if you consider going to China on your own and looking for a job yourself, first check the work visa requirements and time frames. It may be surprisingly difficult to get.

[AlphaQup2nite]

If you are looking for china, pm me specific questions as ive been here quite a while, though my network in BJ is pretty shitty atm, since its winter, cold as fuck and i just moved here, so its limited to my feild of expertise, medical supplies.

Jobs come and go like the wind here. Degrees mean next to nothing as a face to face interview and relationships are everything. I have never looked for a job here, all of them have been provided through networking. Meet a dude in a bar, start talking, and bam, bar manager the next day. Lose a job, tell a sob story, next day interview and job at an English school. TBH 2k a month isnt easy unless you have marketable skills or experience, but if you are willing to work your way up the ranks over a bit of time its quite doable. I mean 10k RMB a month is a very cruisy salary, and thats not even 2k. Currently im overseeing training, logistics, product registration, and various other non sales end of a network of distributors for an imported German brand for all of china, with no college degree, and no experience in that field. I started at this company 2 years ago and rose through the ranks.

The best thing you can do is take a holiday and save up some cash to hit the foreign/ upper end bars (Not clubs) and just spread some cash around making connections. Remember, Chinese culture is based on i do you a favor you do one for me, so a few drinks goes a long way in making good connections. But your best bet for that kinda work would be in 2nd teir cities, GZ BJ SH are already flooded with chinese who speak fluent english and lots of Chinese speaking foreigners, so you need to go where you stand up I started in XM and moved to BJ as the company sent me there, its a smart move. Also, if you have a certificate or degree from your chinese uni days, getting a work visa isnt all that hard. Really, if the company is big enough, work visas are simple, the major point of the complexity is to keep the newly graduated party kids from coming over and trying to fuck all the girls and drink all the beer and make an ass of themselves. A work visa for a respectable job (Uni teaching gig or real business work) really isnt too hard as long as you have a reason to be there. Im actually going back to school on the company's dime for a year to get a 2 year Chinese degree, even tho i speak pretty damn well, just b/c it makes work visa paperwork so much easier.

Also, work visas arent exactly necessary tbh. The chance of getting caught is quite low, ive been in china 5 years, and i think ive only heard of like 3 people getting deported, all of them black, and all of them teachers teaching in unlicensed schools. If you have any speicific questions, hit me up with a PM or post them here and ill have a look.

Networking in china can be summed up simply as a large diverse of people who owe you favors of some sort that you can introduce to each other for mutual benefit. Everyone knows someone who can help you in your goals, you just need to be connected to them some how. Chinese people go to great lengths to help out a friend of a friend.

[Irminsul]

AlphaQ, did you mainly get jobs by networking with expats or with Chinese? Which do you think is a better way of going about it?

I realize that the degree is not very valuable (doesn't seem to be too valuable over here, either, to be honest).

My understanding was that work visas aren't hard to get if you have a company that wants to hire you. I heard of a company that would lie and say that you were their employee and get you a visa for a fee. I knew a guy who was doing that.

I'm thinking about just heading back over there and getting an English teaching job and making more of an effort to network this time, since I haven't had much luck finding a job in the US.

[oldnemesis]

(01-21-2011 02:35 AM)Irminsul Wrote:  

I heard of a company that would lie and say that you were their employee and get you a visa for a fee. I knew a guy who was doing that.

I do not know if it is the same in China, but typically a working visa typically is issued for you to work in a specific company in a specific position, not for any company in the country. This is the case with EU, USA (with exception of Canadians who can get TN1) and Russia. So you might end up losing some cash while getting no actual benefits.

Anyway, if local guys say the chance to get deported is very low (and if you got caught, you could probably slip a bribe and be fine), and the companies themselves do not care about visa requirements, you might be ok without one.

[Irminsul]

(01-21-2011 04:04 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(01-21-2011 02:35 AM)Irminsul Wrote:  

I heard of a company that would lie and say that you were their employee and get you a visa for a fee. I knew a guy who was doing that.

I do not know if it is the same in China, but typically a working visa typically is issued for you to work in a specific company in a specific position, not for any company in the country. This is the case with EU, USA (with exception of Canadians who can get TN1) and Russia. So you might end up losing some cash while getting no actual benefits.

The guy I knew who was doing this had some kind of online business. He mainly just wanted a way to be in the country. I was pointing this out merely to illustrate that I don't think it's that hard to get a work visa in China if you have a company that wants to hire you. They want to hire you, they fill out a form, you get a visa - I don't think it's much more complicated than that.

[AlphaQup2nite]

(01-21-2011 02:35 AM)Irminsul Wrote:  

AlphaQ, did you mainly get jobs by networking with expats or with Chinese? Which do you think is a better way of going about it?

I realize that the degree is not very valuable (doesn't seem to be too valuable over here, either, to be honest).

My understanding was that work visas aren't hard to get if you have a company that wants to hire you. I heard of a company that would lie and say that you were their employee and get you a visa for a fee. I knew a guy who was doing that.

I'm thinking about just heading back over there and getting an English teaching job and making more of an effort to network this time, since I haven't had much luck finding a job in the US.

I had better luck with the older foreigners to be honest, like 30+, as long as you arent a total fool and speak decent chinese and dont come off as a fuckwad party kid like they see a million times youll do well.

English teaching right now is pretty tapped out. Gone are the days where you could pick and choose or walk in and almost always gets a job. You need an introduction atleast, and remember most schools do their hiring online 6months in advanced, so unless there is a sudden vacancy due to sickness or someone leaving, its not as easy as before.

Also, if you open a business in china, you get an automatic 2 year work visa, and with enough capital its not too difficult, just a bit of a hassle. Id be careful with the fraudulent work visas as well, its almost better you not have one then a fake one, b/c they are tied to the company that applied for you, so if you get caught working for another company, all 3 parties are in serious shit unless they have mad guanxi with the PSB office. Happened to a friend of mine, he would have been deported cept we managed to scrape together about 3k usd in bribes, and i pulled a few strings for him through a party member's kid i had tutored for IELTS and he got a 7 so he was happy with me, and he was "deported" to korea and wasnt allowed back for 10 days. (forced to walk across the border with pretty much the clothes on his back after being locked up for a week)

Teaching tho is awesome since your networking is 1/2 done for you, you meet prospective employees, other teachers with networks they want to share, and prospective investors as well, so no matter what you do you will be able to find something to help you along. And its very easy to build lasting relationships with them, just spend your break times in student areas and see who wants to chat with you or eat with you (most schools hate it when you do this tho, makes them think you are giving away free classes) Also be sure never to fuck a student, its hard not to b/c they are so easy. I was practically raped by one of my students (liquored up to the point of nearly blacking out and taken back to her place and literally she ripped off my clothes and mounted me), and it leads to nothing but trouble.

As long as you are decently attractive, know how to mix drinks, and are somewhat charming and decent at conversation, id look into the resturant industry with foreign places that are popular, or bars. Those are almost as good and its not a pain in the ass dealing with complaints all the time and shit. But once again, most of those jobs are through networks as well.

Best bet i would say, come over here on a 1 month holiday, rent some shitty hole in the wall hotel room (i can get you one in XM fully equiped for about 15 bucks a night) and just network hardcore. You should be able to shake something lose in that time. Focus on the foreigners as the chinese people are much harder till you get the tricks and can joke very comfortably in chinese. But thats a gamble as well. Or you can look for postings online. Web International English School is pretty decent to its employees from what i hear. EF is terrible and screwed over everyone i know who worked for them. If you want to go that route, i can make a few calls and see if i can get an actual contact for you, rather then an agent, but no promises on that.

[Irminsul]

Thanks for the responses.

So you really think Xiamen has the best opportunities for foreigners? I never went down there (I lived in Shanghai), but I heard it was a decent place to live.

From what I understand, the teaching gigs at unis are pretty easy to get, though they are pretty low paying. I was thinking about just doing that for a semester. I tried getting a job at one of the private schools when I was over there and it seemed like they mainly hired people who already had taught at unis for a few semesters.

I'm working on setting up an online business at the moment, so if I can start getting some sales in the next few months, that will make things a lot easier money-wise. So the English teaching and all that is really a backup option in case the business turns out to be a total disaster (though it still might be worth it in terms of the networking opportunities, as you suggest).

[AlphaQup2nite]

unis are a cakewalk, but the pay starts are 4000 rmb a month and house provided on campus, which usally means late night lock outs and its a pain to bring chicks home. only 16-20 hours of classes as week. Private schools pay atleast 2x that but you pay your own rent and prbly 25 teaching hours a week and 15 office hours, and you will need to work atleast 1 weekend a week. Private schools are much better for the networking parts tho, atleast in the short term since you will have business people and the right connections right away, as opposed to waiting for graduate kids to climb the ranks or find something worth knowing them for. Really only thing they want at the private schools is exp, so you can bullshit some exp at a vocational school or something with your background and youll be fine, since they never do their due diligence anyways.

[maestrobaires]

i was offered a teaching gig in china at one of top design schools. a good friend from japan has gone instead. the pay is crap but you got plenty of other benefits (free housing for instance) and it's pretty stress free. that as well as teaching english are among the few opportunities you got without significant experience in the west

[AlphaQup2nite]

(01-22-2011 04:30 PM)maestrobaires Wrote:  

i was offered a teaching gig in china at one of top design schools. a good friend from japan has gone instead. the pay is crap but you got plenty of other benefits (free housing for instance) and it's pretty stress free. that as well as teaching english are among the few opportunities you got without significant experience in the west

From my exp, its mostly retirees who take the uni jobs for more than a year to supplement a pension/retirement income. It really is a cakewalk, and its a good way to build a resume. Ive seen some kids do it as a doorway into private schools for more money.

And no exp is needed for anything, as long as you dont go though normal channels. As i mentioned, as long as you learn quick and dont fuck people over or screw up, you can get anything, as a friend of a friend will go through great lengths to help someone who knows the guangxi game. Ive landed a DJ gig, Bar general manager, restaurant PR job, QC inspector for an american plastics company, numerous teaching jobs, my current gig in surgical instruments (not an easy field to get into with medical training) and numerous other investment opportunities all without so much as filling out an application or going to a career fair. In china, the more people you know the more options you have.

True story. I had a friend in Fuzhou who had great Guangxi with the Public Security Bureau (they handle deportations among other things) and when they busted the school he was working at, the first thing they asked was "is Rob working today?" and he was, so they came back the next day when he wasnt working to check paperwork on people, as they already knew he was working illegally and didnt care. China has a saying, "Rules are Dead, People are Alive," with the right networking you can literally get everything done.

[Vacancier Permanent]

Alpha,
I dig your posts and input about China and I'm getting more and more curious about China. I don't really need a teaching job for the money, but would like to know, to make good contacts in China, would it be beneficial or just taking a language course at a local uni be enough to meet interesting and well connected people? (As well as some hot chicks as the icing on the cake?)

Now, cost wise, I'm leaving a very comfortable lifestyle in Thailand on + or - $3K/month and would like to know how does China compare with Thailand? My example is living in Bangkok. Would a place like Shanghai or Beijing offer a similar lifestyle for a similar amount per month? Or should I look into other 2nd tier cities to have the same lifestyle I'm having now in BKK?

Thanks man!

[AlphaQup2nite]

first tier cities with the exception of maybe XM, no way 3k would give you a western style living. XM is doable. Just to give you an idea, i have a shitty 2 bedroom on the 5th floor with no elevator unfurinshed in the ghetto of beijing (well technically not inside beijing proper, a satalite city. Takes about 30-45 min to get into the city via MTR) and it costs me 1800. I had a 2 bedroom on the 4th floor of a gated community fully furnished in XM for 1400 walking distance from the city center. Teaching in a private school will add 1.5 to 2k a month so if you factor that in the teir 1 cities are great. Honestly tho, XM is hard since the english level is alot lower than other SEZs, i did fine b/c i have chinese ability and people had to rely on me to translate when we go out, so it might not be a good match for you unless you really work at it.

Language course are not the right place to network. They are cheap and filled with foreigners who cant afford private tutors. The money in china is mostly in the chinese hands, so you need to meet the ones with the money. Thats why you teach their kids, most of the private school students, if you dont goto a kids specialty school are college grads with opportunities. But ive found more from networking in bars and going to parties. The exception is if you enroll in a top uni program for chinese, there are usally a few people who are good to know. I met a japanese exec here who wanted me to handle his day to day translations needs from uni classes. Aim for what you are interested in. Long term, uni is fine. Short term, go the teaching route and head to the "foreigner" bars. And learn chinese, its pretty much the only way to get any cred of your usefulness in china, since everyone lies about their past here.

[subutai]

Solid posts on China Alpha.

[AlphaQup2nite]

If anyone is is seriously planning a move here, send me a PM or an email, and i can look into a few things for you and serve as a kind of a guide to life in china. I currently live near Beijing, but i have contacts in Fujian (Fuzhou, Xiamen, Quanzhou) Guangdong (Shenzhen, Guangzhuo) and i often travel for business. Actually beijing is prbly the least familiar place for me, but that will be changing over the next 6 months when i start uni since having a chinese diploma even a crappy 2 year one makes work visas 10X easier to apply for, and the constant running to HK is getting on my nerves.

I actually thought about blogging this stuff a while ago, but i dont like getting blocked from my own website by china's firewall.

[Irminsul]

So do you have any tips on running expat networking bar game? What kind of openers do you use, how do you approach the issue of asking about employment, how do you make yourself sound like someone worth bothering with, etc.?

Thanks again, this is some great stuff.

[AlphaQup2nite]

Actually it takes little "game" at all. Its just typical meeting strangers at a bar, if you can pick up women, you should be able to get the interest of some foreigner who speaks english mostly on the phone on an infrequent basis.

Just be interesting. Ive found that being much younger then most business people in china (im almost 24) and being able to converse with them on an even level without being emo, hipster, idiototic, trying to mooch free drinks, etc... is simple. People are interested, just have stories ready and more of a justification for being in china then, "drink all the booze, fuck all the girls" or "i want to network with you" people will open up pretty easily. Bartenders are great. Tip them (almost no one tips in china) and they will remember you, then mention you are looking to meet people, and they can introduce you. Just be interesting, outspoken, and listen to them bitch about china (all long term non chinese speakers will do this all the time) and you will make an impression. Ask questions about things, and such, its hard to put it down. Really, its easy tho to meet people, as long as you are memorable. Also, business stories that display your value and skills without seeming like you are listing a resume work well as well.

When i first started networking 5 years ago, i used to be the guy with all the earrings, and people remembered me b/c of it. Really its not hard. Its weird, as the new guy in town, you'll find people of all sorts coming up and talking to you if you look like you speak english. Everything you know about picking up girls applies here, except your goal isn't fucking, its about building a connection.

Looking for a job is simple, after having a decent network, you just spread the word around that you are prbly leaving your present job in the next X timeframe due to getting screwed by local chinese or whatever, some decent story, and people will let you know. The abilities you have really dont matter too much, as long as you grasp some basic chinese. Like when i came to China, i had a very basic background in chinese, like i could take a taxi, not get ripped off at a store, but other then basic conversational, i was useless. You will improve it as long as you are the guy doing the speaking and not letting people do it for you. Your goal is to be the translator guy who other people rely on. Like i mentioned above about the favor thing, when people rely on you, even something simple like helping them order food or txting them an address in Chinese, it adds up to a debt that you can "call" on when you need work or references or anything.

[Vacancier Permanent]

As usual very solid info/input Alpha!
Since you mention top uni for chinese language, whch one would you suggest say in Beijing, Changhai and in XM? Out of curiosity, what is the monthly rate to take lessons there?

I'll be definitely contacting you and picking your brains before I go to China.

Thanks man.

[AlphaQup2nite]

Well if you are looking for reputation, its hard to beat Beijing Qinghua university. I think tuition there runs about 20,000 RMB, or about 3000-3500 USD for a 2 year term. Classes are 8 am to 12 pm mon-fri. Student dorms if you want are either 5 bucks a night for a double, or 10 bucks a night for single occupancy i think. Im going to study at Beijing Language and Culture University, simply because the classes start at 8:30, and i hate mornings.

Other good schools i know about are Xiamen University, this one is very popular with many international students, amazing campus, and lots to do in the city. I studied there for a few months, and it was fun for sure. XM was 8000 RMB a semester so a handful over 1K USD a semester. Xiamen is still def my favorite city in china, but that might be due to the fact that i knew it really well, and had lots of fun times there. Those as a FOB foreigner used to western life, Xiamen can be a bit tough to find alot of the stuff you are used to from home without some heavy hunting.

Guangzhou/Shenzhen schools would be good to look into as well, as those are very developed cities that have everything you need.

And since im on this forum, and if all you care about is getting laid. Harbin would be a good place. Dongbei (north eastern) girls are some of the hottest (read: TITS AND ASS ON AN ASIAN GIRL) most laid back an open girls ive met. Out of all the women ive met in china, only a few dongbei girls have actually asked for anal. Problem is, it is god damn cold there, i think the current temp is -30 or -40 C.

Also, you never need monthly lessons, just find yourself a bilingual girlfriend. Since you are on these forums, im pretty sure you have the skills and ability to land one pretty easily, and get lessons from her. Its much better then a formal schooling, since 90% of the shit you learn there wont be applicable to normal life. But if you plan to work or open a business in china, a chinese uni certificate is worth more then its weight in gold.

This is just a general overview, give me exactly what you are looking for, and i will look into a place that will suit you. Also, dont expect to come here and then think about schooling, it is much easier to apply while still in your home country, as you can get alot of stuff done there that is more of a hassle in china if you dont speak chinese (Visa issues, medical check ups etc...) China has one of the most annoyingly stupid bureaucratic systems ever until you learn it.