[Alpharius]

1 - To work in certain fields, you must be vaccinated. I had to show proof of vaccinations for my current job, and a number of previous jobs I've held. Also, for children to be accepted into most daycare facilities and schools (from kindergarten through university), you need to show proof of vaccination. Pile forty kids in a room together all day long and you'll see how communicability really works. On Monday one kid is sneezing and doesn't show up for class on Tuesday, on Wednesday five more kids are sneezing and won't be there on Thursday...

Want to increase your marketability? Get vaccinated.

2 - If men on this forum are really into bettering themselves, they'll take a serious look at any reasonable precautions against losing days of potential productivity. "Wrap it before you tap it" goes right in hand with "get a tetanus shot if you're living a hard and active lifestyle".

Want to maintain a healthy, active, masculine lifestyle? Get vaccinated.

3 - Not all reactions to vaccines are nightmarish. I got vaccinated for rabies back in 2007 because I was going to be doing research in a place where it was a serious risk. I was part of the 6% that had a bad reaction to the vaccine, and suffered through a couple days of a high fever and joint pain. Kind of like the flu. I'd go on to be bitten by a stray dog during the course of my research and didn't have to worry quite as much as to whether or not I'd contracted a fatal disease from it.

Want to travel off the beaten path? Get vaccinated.

I'm not saying go get every vaccination out there, but make sure you have the basics. You don't need all the different ones for every little thing, I've been back and forth to malaria zones again and again and I've never caught malaria. However if they do create a vaccine for dengue fever, I'll be first in fucking line. I've seen that shit first hand and have no intention of getting it.

[Walderschmidt]

(03-19-2014 10:55 PM)Faust Wrote:  

Or from the other side:
1.) The government wants us to take vaccines.
2.) The government is evil.
3.) Ergo, vaccines are unsafe.

I'm not a medical man. I don't know offhand whether it's a good idea to take any specific vaccine. But I know bullshit reasoning when I see it, and I know childish logic when I see it. And I see a lot of it here.

I think you misrepresent the arguments on the opposed to vaccines side.

What I see it's more like:

1) Government encourages us to take vaccines
2) I don't trust the Government
3) Government has a history of vaccine "mishaps"
4) I see how working along Government guidelines works for the average American

Or simplified, from my perspective, the research I've done for myself, it doesn't make any sense to get any new vaccines.

I've gotten all the "required" ones and have no desire to take any more unless I have absolute confidence in a vaccine, which I do not.

If somebody disagrees, that's their prerogative.

Wald

[TigerMandingo]

(03-19-2014 10:55 PM)Faust Wrote:  

I'm not a medical man. I don't know offhand whether it's a good idea to take any specific vaccine. But I know bullshit reasoning when I see it, and I know childish logic when I see it. And I see a lot of it here.

This is also a forum that encourages raw-dogging, a practice which many blue-pillers will find childish and reckless. Vaccines are helpful and great, I have no doubt. Some people just like to live dangerously, though.

[Blackhawk]

The problem is immigration and tourism.

After you've eliminated a disease in a population, it's dead. You have about 40 years or so as older people who are still vectors die off, but then there's no more reason to vaccinate against it.

The US population has invested billions of dollars into eliminating multiple diseases from its borders by vaccinating over 400 million residents ...then lets in millions of people every year that are not vaccinated and not screened for the very diseases now eliminated.

It's not like measles suddenly re-developed out of nothing. New York has millions of immigrants and even more tourists visiting every day. And it's one of those fuckers that carried it in and reintroduced measles into the US. Not the people who were unvaccinated.

Vaccinations only last 20 years and then the immune system appears to forget with disuse. How many of you pro-vaccination actually went for another round of the same vaccine shots at age 25? If not, you are functionally unvaccinated today. As is the majority of the adult population of the US.

Seems a lot of people in favor of vaccinating children are real sloppy on their own 20 (and 40 and 60) year vaccination re-ups.

[Maciano]

No.

[dnoone]

Yes. They are forcing way too many vaccines on kids. A lot of modern medicine is pseudo-science. Just look at all the American women on anti-depressants. You see no such nut jobs in eastern Europe. Last woman I was with was irish and they had her on lithium. So why trust them on vaccines when you see the mentality?

The scientific arguments require some reading up. There are people who even claim the 1918 flu pandemic , the vaccines at the time were the real cause.

It is a big complicated subject. Could write a book.

I stayed with super spoilt english woman and she was vaccinating her kid based on some guy called Goldacre's book. I read his book and he acted mr scientist with easy debunks to establish his authority over female mind and then snuck his pitch in at the end.

Question everything and remember many gatekeepers on the internet out to confuse.

HIV/AIDS is another big controversy by the way. Duesberg. Worth a look up

[Faust]

Quote:

The scientific arguments require some reading up. There are people who even claim the 1918 flu pandemic , the vaccines at the time were the real cause.

I've never heard anything about this, can you tell me more?

[lurker]

(03-19-2014 10:55 PM)Faust Wrote:  

I look through this thread and most of the reasoning I see is horrible. Look at some of you people.
1.) Jenny McCarthy thinks vaccines can cause autism.
2.) Jenny McCarthy is an idiot.
3.) Ergo, vaccines are safe.

Or from the other side:
1.) The government wants us to take vaccines.
2.) The government is evil.
3.) Ergo, vaccines are unsafe.

In any other circumstance, you would immediately recognize this as the same bullshit you see every day from Jezebel or manboobs, or any of those other sites that are constantly bashing this community.
1.) Tuthmosis says that girls with short hair are ugly.
2.) Tuthmosis is a misogynist creep.
3.) Ergo, I'll look every bit as hot, no, even hotter, with this pixie cut.

I'm not a medical man. I don't know offhand whether it's a good idea to take any specific vaccine. But I know bullshit reasoning when I see it, and I know childish logic when I see it. And I see a lot of it here.

Appeals to authority may not be strictly deductively valid, but that doesn't mean they don't have considerable logical strength. Put it this way: if you were trying to understand the physics of time, are you going to put more stock in a Stephen Hawking lecture or in Ke$ha's Tik Tok?

Eschewing the silly analogy, the arguments here are really just missing their underlying assumptions:

1.) Jenny McCarthy says vaccines cause autism.
2.) Jenny McCarthy is an idiot.
3.) Decades of medical research and empirical testing have shown no link between vaccines and autism, and exceedingly minor negative effects on a population level from vaccines in general.
4.) Did I mention Jenny McCarthy is a used-up semen receptacle?
5.) Vaccines are pretty goddamn safe.

[Vroom]

How many people have actually read a single study about any vaccine? Not read about one, or been told about one, but actually read it for themselves?
Of those, how many have the expertise in immunology and statistical analysis to make sense of it one way or the other?

I'm going to take a wild guess and say on this forum, and in wider society, the number is very close to zero. And yet, almost everyobdy seems to be able to say with absolute surety that they're all "safe".

There's an extreme mismatch here between the amount of information people have, and the certainty they derive from it. Another area with a similar mismatch is how people just know that god is waiting for them in heaven, or they just know that the cruel and insidious patriarchy is holding them down. Where these sorts of mismatch exist, it's not understanding, or even belief - it's faith. The question is, what has big business ever done to earn your faith in them?

[Faust]

Quote:

Eschewing the silly analogy, the arguments here are really just missing their underlying assumptions:

1.) Jenny McCarthy says vaccines cause autism.
2.) Jenny McCarthy is an idiot.
3.) Decades of medical research and empirical testing have shown no link between vaccines and autism, and exceedingly minor negative effects on a population level from vaccines in general.
4.) Did I mention Jenny McCarthy is a used-up semen receptacle?
5.) Vaccines are pretty goddamn safe.

And this is exactly what I was talking about: your chain of logic is fatally flawed. Jenny McCarthy may or may not be a used up semen receptacle (I know nothing about her beyond the name, that she doesn't like vaccines, and that I think she was a playboy playmate?) But her status as a semen receptacle has nothing to do with the safety of vaccines.

More to the point is your third item. You can't talk about "vaccines" as if they were all the same. Read the item I linked about the Swine Flu vaccine; that certainly wasn't safe. There are lots of vaccines out there, and some of them you should take, and some of them you might not need. And more importantly, not everybody taking them is the same. What's smart for you might not be smart for somebody else.

Look at this quote from Osiris to see what I mean.

Quote:

3 - Not all reactions to vaccines are nightmarish. I got vaccinated for rabies back in 2007 because I was going to be doing research in a place where it was a serious risk... I'd go on to be bitten by a stray dog during the course of my research and didn't have to worry quite as much as to whether or not I'd contracted a fatal disease from it.

This was a smart thing to do. There was a risk from taking the vaccine, there was a risk from not taking it, and Osiris decided which risk he preferred. And it paid off, too. Does that mean it makes sense to get the flu vaccine, when it's been proven mostly ineffective (Reference Thomas's post on the first page)? Of course not.

[lurker]

(03-21-2014 08:45 PM)Faust Wrote:  

Quote:

Eschewing the silly analogy, the arguments here are really just missing their underlying assumptions:

1.) Jenny McCarthy says vaccines cause autism.
2.) Jenny McCarthy is an idiot.
3.) Decades of medical research and empirical testing have shown no link between vaccines and autism, and exceedingly minor negative effects on a population level from vaccines in general.
4.) Did I mention Jenny McCarthy is a used-up semen receptacle?
5.) Vaccines are pretty goddamn safe.

And this is exactly what I was talking about: your chain of logic is fatally flawed. Jenny McCarthy may or may not be a used up semen receptacle (I know nothing about her beyond the name, that she doesn't like vaccines, and that I think she was a playboy playmate?) But her status as a semen receptacle has nothing to do with the safety of vaccines.

More to the point is your third item. You can't talk about "vaccines" as if they were all the same. Read the item I linked about the Swine Flu vaccine; that certainly wasn't safe. There are lots of vaccines out there, and some of them you should take, and some of them you might not need. And more importantly, not everybody taking them is the same. What's smart for you might not be smart for somebody else.

If you were a college student in my old logic class, I've give you 4/10 on this one for partial credit. Jenny McCarthy's idiocy has nothing to do with the safety of vaccines. However, you didn't parse what I wrote correctly, and there's absolutely nothing invalid about my "chain of logic."

First, there isn't a chain at all - there are no subsidiary or intermediate conclusions in the arguments. Pared down to its bases, the arguments are as follows:

Argument One From Above
Premise: Jenny McCarthy repeatedly holds an idiotic position that flies in the face of accepted and tested science.
Conclusion: Jenny McCarthy is an idiot.

Entirely Separate (Real) Argument Two From Above
Premise: Decades of medical research and empirical testing have shown no link between vaccines and autism, and exceedingly minor negative effects on a population level from vaccines in general.
Conclusion: Vaccines are pretty goddamn safe.

You'll notice that the difference in what I wrote and what you originally took other posters to task for is the inclusion of (3) as a counterexample premise that most posters left as an assumption: the reason that Jenny is a dumbass and vaccines are safe is that our medical system has thoroughly vetted those given to the population.

Turning to your linked article, you may have noticed that health officials had identified 900 people who developed narcolepsy out of 31 million to receive the vaccine - a pretty low ratio that jibes with the explicitly mentioned study finding that 1 person out of every 55,000 given the vaccine developed narcolepsy.

A risk factor of 1 out of 55,000 is acceptably safe.

PS - The 'solicitors fees' and recovery mentioned in the article are the exact reason we have a vaccine court.

[placer]

A couple of articles in the popular press strongly supporting vaccines:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertpearl/...-movement/

http://www.salon.com/2014/03/20/measles_...th_crisis/

The fact that one of them is from Salon is an interesting case. Just because Salon publishes feminist hamster-thinking BS doesn't mean that everything they publish is invalid.

[Faust]

Quote:

Turning to your linked article, you may have noticed that health officials had identified 900 people who developed narcolepsy out of 31 million to receive the vaccine - a pretty low ratio that jibes with the explicitly mentioned study finding that 1 person out of every 55,000 given the vaccine developed narcolepsy.

A risk factor of 1 out of 55,000 is acceptably safe.

You might think it's an acceptable risk. The people who actually gave the vaccine didn't. The British Government didn't; they pulled the vaccine. But maybe that's just them reacting to public pressure. Let's ask one of the people actually responsible for its distribution. Here's Dr. Goran Stiernstedt, a Swedish public health official and one of the people responsible for coordinating the vaccine campaign in his country. Does he think that the risk was worth it?

Quote:

"The big question is was it worth it? And retrospectively I have to say it was not."
...While estimates vary, Stiernstedt says Sweden's mass vaccination saved between 30 and 60 people from swine flu death. Yet since the pandemic ended, more than 200 cases of narcolepsy have been reported in Sweden...
""This is a medical tragedy," he said. "Hundreds of young people have had their lives almost destroyed."
(Source)

[Tail Gunner]

(03-18-2014 09:52 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

The fact that the public is even debating the utility of vaccines is a testament to the declining educational standards in the US, and the slow but steady corrosion of reason in the face of emotion.

And the sad thing is that, for the most part, the abandonment of education and embrace of ignorance and superstition is voluntary.

As I've said, the New Age of Barbarism dawns.

The New Age of Barbarism will dawn when citizens no longer question authority, no longer question asserted dogma, and mindlessly inject foreign substances into their veins -- or, worse yet, allow the government to force them to do so.

Maintaining a healthy immune system will do far more for you than any vaccine, without any of the potential side effects. This is about my sixth year without a cold or the flu. The healthy should not be forced to sacrifice their health for the sake of the stupid (who refuse to maintain healthy immune systems or allow teeming masses of illegal aliens into the country from nations with substandard hygiene standards).

[clever alias]

how are peopke even debating this? go ask your grandparents what growing up with annual polio outbreaks was like. you havent had the flu or a cold in years? that means NOTHING, influenza and rhinovirus are the drake and vanilla ice of pathogens. chickenpox as an adult, and its your immune reaction that kills you via cytokine storm. if you jave chickenpox as a kid, it van cause shingles and nerve damage later. or you get pertussis as a baby before your immune system is fully developed.
or you get vaccinated as a baby and shit that killed people for 99% of human history are eradicated within 50 years.

[Tail Gunner]

(03-23-2014 02:06 AM)clever alias Wrote:  

how are peopke even debating this? go ask your grandparents what growing up with annual polio outbreaks was like. you havent had the flu or a cold in years? that means NOTHING, influenza and rhinovirus are the drake and vanilla ice of pathogens. chickenpox as an adult, and its your immune reaction that kills you via cytokine storm. if you jave chickenpox as a kid, it van cause shingles and nerve damage later. or you get pertussis as a baby before your immune system is fully developed.
or you get vaccinated as a baby and shit that killed people for 99% of human history are eradicated within 50 years.

All the people who I have known throughout my life that were most knowledgeable about health issues were opposed to vaccines.

And yet you ask how are people even debating this topic? That is like members of an AFC forum asking how are people even debating whether game works (because all us AFCs know that it doesn't work). It is a matter of gaining knowledge on the topic and not merely parroting the powers that be.

Sure, vaccines were warranted once -- and may still be warranted in some third world countries. The people that you mentioned who died from disease for most of human history did not have flush toilets, sewer systems, potable water, practice basic hygiene practices, or even have a knowledge of germs, bacteria, or viruses. These are all relatively recent technological advances. Just take care of your immune system.

[clever alias]

if they were opposed to vaccines they werent knowledgeable about health. end of discussion.

because america didnt have flush toilets in the 50s, potable water, basic hygene, or even basic knowledge about pathogens. right.

theres a difference between paroting the powers that be and scientific knowledge. you cant look the.scores of peopke smarter than you in the eye and say "fuck yiu and your scientific system" with no evidence to stand on. makes as much sense as me saying "fuck you for thinking 2+2=4, thats what the 'system' wants you to think"

[kosko]

Being indoctrinated by pharmaceutical funded medical schools for 6-10 years does not make one "smarter" than another. It makes one knowledgable, but like any education system you end up parroting back commands given to you. Education means nothing since some of the dumbest folks I know have PhDs and degrees out the ass but have zero ability to think for then selves. The least corrupted part of medicine is bio-engineering where hard un-corrupt disciplines of mechanics and engineering are blended with medicine. Every other standard area has become infiltrated and the modern MD is nothing more now then a monkey whom scribbles prescription commands for Big Pharma prescriptions. So many "advances" and so much money thrown at the field yet we continue to get even more sick, weak, and frail.

If Doctors were by default the smartest people in the room then you would see all if then speak out against obvious health combatants such as GMO foods, blood and puss filled Frankenstein mass produced Milk, chemical exposures and the effects in make health, etc. Anybody with a critical mind can see these issues but yet the majority of the medical community is inept to act and/or knows nothing, or simply stays ignorant on the subjects.

Milk is a perfect example. From their training they should know that commercial milk, minus the enzymes is useless. The vitamin D is added, nobody knows the true bio-Availability of it, while the calcium present in the milk is bio-available another due to the proteins in milk and the lack of proper enzymes. Studies have been done showing that populations with increases dairy consumption of milk actually have the HIGHEST rates of osteoporosis in women, not the lowest. There gets to a point where your body leeches it's reserves from its own bones due to the lack of sufficient proper absorbable calcium being introduced into the system from diet. This should be common knowledge and it used to be before Big Pharma and Big Agra corrupted it all. Yet ask a doctor and they will parrot the line that you should get drunk of gallons of puss water from dirty cows for your "bones and health" yet the evidence shows otherwise.

Some of the most educated are the most delusional and stupid. "Schools" were never supposed to teach true smarts, only indoctrinate you on certain fields. If doctors were the smartest guys in the room the majority of them would know game to leverage those massive salaries and prestige they posses to get laid. Enough said.

[Teutatis]

It's clearly an American thing. I see on these forum that it's usually the people that lean libertarian who most strongly oppose it, you won't find these anti vaccination movements and their arguments (the government is bad, the government wants you to be vaccinated, therefore, vaccines are bad) anywhere else. Have fun not vaccinating your children and have them fall ill of diseases that don't exist in the rest of the civilized world.

[Tail Gunner]

(03-23-2014 09:31 AM)Teutatis Wrote:  

It's clearly an American thing. I see on these forum that it's usually the people that lean libertarian who most strongly oppose it, you won't find these anti vaccination movements and their arguments (the government is bad, the government wants you to be vaccinated, therefore, vaccines are bad) anywhere else. Have fun not vaccinating your children and have them fall ill of diseases that don't exist in the rest of the civilized world.

Americans are free-thinkers, which is why there are almost more American Nobel winners than winners from the rest of the world combined. Americans question everything because everything deserves to be questioned -- and minority thinkers are often proven correct.

Just follow the money. If big pharma convinces the government to compel mandatory vaccines for half the nation at just ten dollars of profit per patented vaccine that totals $1.5 billion. No profit motive there. And your health be damned!

On the other hand, Europeans are way ahead of the U.S. regarding such things as eliminating fluoride, labeling GMO foods, and the use of herbs as medicine (as are Asians).

[TigerMandingo]

(03-23-2014 01:09 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

(03-23-2014 09:31 AM)Teutatis Wrote:  

It's clearly an American thing. I see on these forum that it's usually the people that lean libertarian who most strongly oppose it, you won't find these anti vaccination movements and their arguments (the government is bad, the government wants you to be vaccinated, therefore, vaccines are bad) anywhere else. Have fun not vaccinating your children and have them fall ill of diseases that don't exist in the rest of the civilized world.

Americans are free-thinkers, which is why there are almost more American Nobel winners than winners from the rest of the world combined. Americans question everything because everything deserves to be questioned -- and minority thinkers are often proven correct.

Just follow the money. If big pharma convinces the government to compel mandatory vaccines for half the nation at just ten dollars of profit per patented vaccine that totals $1.5 billion. No profit motive there. And your health be damned!

On the other hand, Europeans are way ahead of the U.S. regarding such things as eliminating fluoride, labeling GMO foods, and the use of herbs as medicine (as are Asians).

[Rotisserie]

(03-21-2014 08:40 PM)Vroom Wrote:  

How many people have actually read a single study about any vaccine? ...
Of those, how many have the expertise in immunology and statistical analysis to make sense of it one way or the other?

I'm going to take a wild guess and say on this forum, and in wider society, the number is very close to zero.

There are medical doctors and scientists who understand immunology who have already weighed in with their opinion on this thread.

[Vroom]

(03-23-2014 03:52 PM)Rotisserie Wrote:  

(03-21-2014 08:40 PM)Vroom Wrote:  

How many people have actually read a single study about any vaccine? ...
Of those, how many have the expertise in immunology and statistical analysis to make sense of it one way or the other?

I'm going to take a wild guess and say on this forum, and in wider society, the number is very close to zero.

There are medical doctors and scientists who understand immunology who have already weighed in with their opinion on this thread.

No, immunology is a highly specialised field. Your GP only gets a basic introduction, about as much as they get on diet.

[Teutatis]

(03-23-2014 01:09 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

(03-23-2014 09:31 AM)Teutatis Wrote:  

It's clearly an American thing. I see on these forum that it's usually the people that lean libertarian who most strongly oppose it, you won't find these anti vaccination movements and their arguments (the government is bad, the government wants you to be vaccinated, therefore, vaccines are bad) anywhere else. Have fun not vaccinating your children and have them fall ill of diseases that don't exist in the rest of the civilized world.

Americans are free-thinkers, which is why there are almost more American Nobel winners than winners from the rest of the world combined. Americans question everything because everything deserves to be questioned -- and minority thinkers are often proven correct.

Just follow the money. If big pharma convinces the government to compel mandatory vaccines for half the nation at just ten dollars of profit per patented vaccine that totals $1.5 billion. No profit motive there. And your health be damned!

On the other hand, Europeans are way ahead of the U.S. regarding such things as eliminating fluoride, labeling GMO foods, and the use of herbs as medicine (as are Asians).

I actually shouldn't have said it's an American thing since most Americans are not anti vaccines, I meant these movements usually originate in America, but unlike you I don't think it's because the people in these movements are free thinkers but because they are a bit paranoid.

[Tail Gunner]

(03-23-2014 06:17 PM)Teutatis Wrote:  

(03-23-2014 01:09 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

(03-23-2014 09:31 AM)Teutatis Wrote:  

It's clearly an American thing. I see on these forum that it's usually the people that lean libertarian who most strongly oppose it, you won't find these anti vaccination movements and their arguments (the government is bad, the government wants you to be vaccinated, therefore, vaccines are bad) anywhere else. Have fun not vaccinating your children and have them fall ill of diseases that don't exist in the rest of the civilized world.

Americans are free-thinkers, which is why there are almost more American Nobel winners than winners from the rest of the world combined. Americans question everything because everything deserves to be questioned -- and minority thinkers are often proven correct.

Just follow the money. If big pharma convinces the government to compel mandatory vaccines for half the nation at just ten dollars of profit per patented vaccine that totals $1.5 billion. No profit motive there. And your health be damned!

On the other hand, Europeans are way ahead of the U.S. regarding such things as eliminating fluoride, labeling GMO foods, and the use of herbs as medicine (as are Asians).

I actually shouldn't have said it's an American thing since most Americans are not anti vaccines, I meant these movements usually originate in America, but unlike you I don't think it's because the people in these movements are free thinkers but because they are a bit paranoid.

That is exactly what I meant as well, when I said that Americans are free thinkers. Obviously, I meant minority-view thinkers and movements.

The people of most countries are far more homogeneous in their patterns of thinking and society often actively dissuades dissent, which explains the disproportion of Nobel winners from the U.S. because creative minority-view thinkers tend to thrive in a society where individuality flourishes.