[GunznButta]

this is one of my favorite essays:

http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/11/09/ho...-aids.html

the tl;dr: for eons disease (and human stupidity) had the upper hand. over the last 100 or so human stupidity ebbed just enough (through experimentation, observation and scientific method) for mankind to get the upper hand. aids is just a sign things are rebalancing yet again.

einstein was right: only 2 things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity.

[Walderschmidt]

(03-18-2014 11:03 PM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  

Any vaccine which has been around 20+ years is probably made to a standardised recipe and is likely to be safe. Stuff like the measles vaccine (which has been more or less proven to have no associated with autism whatsoever in several huge population studies).

Vaccines that are newer, like the HPV, can only be truly considered safe with the test of time. It's up to people to decide for themselves whether unknown risk outweighs known benefit. Generally it takes about 20 years on the market before a product's full safety profile is known.

I've been vaccinated for a lot of the older diseases like measles, mumps, and polio. Didn't really have a choice in the matter because I was a child at the time. I don't know that I'd refuse them if I had a choice in the matter with the same mindset I have now.

I do not doubt the good intentions of scientists or the science behind vaccines, but the how they're distributed through governmental and commercial channels. I think their effect is understated - and of course I wouldn't expect to see much media coverage of it.

That said, with the advent of Global Warming and other theories like it, my confidence in scientists and their science has waned.

I do not follow the "anti-vaccine" movement. I've done my own research and I do what makes sense to me.

I remain skeptical of how much a risk I make myself to other people through not taking vaccines.

Wald

[kosko]

LOL at the prospect that some how vaccines which are brought to us 100% via crony and corrupt Government and Big Pharma whom have a long track record of hurting it's own for profit and power as some how being safe and legit. The premise behind vaccines makes sense, but these shots arn't the same you and I received as children. They are spiked with garbage in today's world as means to push profits and power.

We know Government and Big Agra is in collusion and makes us sick and fat via good.

We know Government and Big Education is in collusion to dumb us down an push useless degrees on us.

We know Government and Big Media is in collusion and force feed us propaganda daily.

We know Government and the Banks is in collision to make us serfs to debts we can never pay back.

And of course we know Government and Big Pharma is in collusion to profit off us getting more sick.

But some how vaccines are immune to all of this ? Even though it is manifested in the same currier matrix that is degenerating us more and more with each generation.

Yup. Sure.

Not a knock on the premise behind vaccines but that holistic premise went out the door a decade ago. They are simply spiking garbage up our children's veins. It's blue pill to even not see it like this. Respect the science, but understand the approach is complete shit and corrupted.

I remember the bullshit with the H1N1 flu shot. I'm not a elder or a child so I trust my body can fight off a flu. I ended up getting the flu and I was sick for 5 days as was fine. Now my body has built up natural immunity to it and I don't have to rely on a toxic cocktail each year to maybe protect me.

I'll take my chances with taking care of my own health before I trust the government and massive corporations. The average American is a sick, scab ridden, fat, sloth. This person lives off a diet of corn, soy, and Dr. pepper and gets his shots every year like the doctor says. I have nothing in common with that sickly sloth, but that's whom these shots are meant for. The golden standard of American health is a sickly and fat man whom was Burger King each day

[MidniteSpecial]

Some really great points here on both sides. Learned a lot from this thread. I have kids. Gave them all their vaccines except for measles mumps rubella, hep c (why they give new born babies hep c vaccines is disturbing) and no hpv vaccines or flu shots.

Here's an interesting article on where doctors go to die: http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240...2?mobile=y

[Walderschmidt]

(03-18-2014 11:34 PM)MidniteSpecial Wrote:  

Some really great points here on both sides. Learned a lot from this thread. I have kids. Gave them all their vaccines except for measles mumps rubella, hep c (why they give new born babies hep c vaccines is disturbing) and no hpv vaccines or flu shots.

Here's an interesting article on where doctors go to die: http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240...2?mobile=y

I really like that article.

Also - for the thread. My family has a saying:

If you want to live to 100, pick your parents and stay out of the hospital.

Food for thought.

Wald

[BIGINJAPAN]

Yeah Big pharma and doctors are always looking out for the patient. That is why they give newborns a Hep B shot. Gotta make sure those newborns are protected from sexually transmitted diseases at the age of 6 hours.

Also its not like a pharmaceutical company to knowingly infect thousands of people with AIDS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_E6d3KGqek

you guys keep believing in big pharma without doing your own research.

Also i forgot to mention in order to show reduced infections of say a virus like polio the government and the medical community would never change the names of a virus to make you think it was on decline. Perhaps a scientist on the forum could break down the difference between AFP, Viral meningitis, guillian barre syndrome and polio.

[Thomas the Rhymer]

(03-19-2014 12:02 AM)BIGINJAPAN Wrote:  

Perhaps a scientist on the forum could break down the difference between AFP, Viral meningitis, guillian barre syndrome and polio.

I know you are only going to use my own words against me but I'll take the bait. Basically you're implying that these conditions are all the same disease.

Acute Flaccid Paralysis is any condition where sudden paralysis develops. Many conditions can cause acute flaccid paralysis but polio is the classical example. It is not a causative diagnosis - you don't describe the cause of the disease by diagnosing AFP, rather you merely identify a typical presentation pattern of a number of illnesses.

Viral meningitis is an infection of the meninges of the brain caused by a virus, any virus. Pretty much any virus, whether measles, chicken pox or influenza, may end up in the meninges and therefore cause meningitis. It is is a diagnosis that revolves around the ends of the disease process rather than the causes - there are many causes of viral meningitis. It is wrong to think of viral meningitis as 'one' disease, when it is more of a broad category of many diseases.

Guillian barre syndrome is a disease whereby the patient develops inflammation of his nervous system leading to worsening paralysis. Strangely, this paralysis is always worse closer to the body (eg shoulders weaker than hands). Worst case scenario is paralysis of the chest, which causes breathing to stop. It is still unclear what guillian barre is and exactly what triggers it off. It most often occurs in response to viral infections, especially HIV, but any process that activates the immune system, such as trauma or eating something off, may trigger it off. And yes, getting a vaccine can trigger off guillian barre. The treatment, besides putting the patient on breathing support, is controversial and the disease generally reverses itself with time, although a small percentage of people do get permanent weakness. I've seen about 3 cases of guillian barre so far in my medical career. Guillian barre syndrome is unlike acute flaccid paralysis, in that it progresses more slowly, and has the peculiar distribution of weakness worse near the body, unlike with acute flaccid paralysis which has a more variable distribution.

Polio is a disease caused by the polio virus. In 90% of cases, it only causes a mild flu-like illness. However, especially in children, in some cases it can infect the nervous system, causing a syndrome called Acute Flaccid Paralysis. This paralysis can end up being permanent in some cases. Polio can cause, as part of its symptoms, an entity called Acute Flaccid Paralysis, but that doesn't mean they are one and the same.

It's wrong to say that doctors are making up new names for old diseases - rather, the human body tends to break down or mess up in predictable patterns, simply because that's how we are made, and therefore it's not unusual for a myriad of different causes to cause the same illness. The common cold, for example, can be caused by a 100+ different viruses, and yet they all cause exactly the same disease.

I know BigInJapan is pretty set in his opinions, so I'm not disputing anything with B I J, rather I'm just laying the information down for everyone's benefit, so that we can all decide for ourselves.

[RawGod]

Methinks the truth lies somewhere in the middle between "vaccines are a conspiracy to give your children autism" and "any questioning of current establishment medical ideas makes you an idiot".

[lurker]

(03-18-2014 08:14 PM)Sawyer Wrote:  

Vaccine Court Awards Millions to Two Children With Autism

Quote:

Government lawyers insisted that Emily had suffered neither a vaccine injury nor encephalopathy. But every alternative cause they suggested "made no sense, because she showed no signs of those things before that vaccination," Moller said.

Article here

Why a "vaccine court?" Vaccines are scary shit, and can fuck a kid up.

There's a vaccine court to arbitrate issues of vaccinations causing reactions in an extremely minor percentage of recipients. The court is inquisitorial rather than adversarial and has a set list of vaccines and known conditions corresponding to specific monetary damages, although it will hear cases for vaccines off the list. Most of the vaccines that caused issues were older and have been dealt with; I believe the high point of vaccine court action was for vaccinations in the 1970s and 80s.

The court was set up to avoid people suing pharmaceutical companies for developing a public good through herd immunity. Every vaccine is taxed, and that tax funds the vaccine court payouts. Again, the percentage of people affected by these vaccines is minimal.

Plaintiffs do not seek to prove their case against a defendant in vaccine court. The affected party comes in and delivers evidence, the Special Master in charge of the proceedings does research and questions the affected party directly, and prevailing scientific research into vaccine illnesses is considered. For what it's worth, the vaccine court has repeatedly found that there is no link between vaccines and autism.

[Rotisserie]

(03-18-2014 11:03 PM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  

Any vaccine which has been around 20+ years is probably made to a standardised recipe and is likely to be safe. ...

I don't get flu shots, nor do I advise my patients to get flu shots. I believe the risks of flu are greatly overstated and the benefits unclear (see thisCochrane review, which basically states that the vaccine has only a 'modest' effect on days off work, but hospitalisations/deaths from influenza remain the same).

Linking papers??? goddamn, RVF reached a new level for me.

(03-19-2014 12:38 AM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  

(03-19-2014 12:02 AM)BIGINJAPAN Wrote:  

Perhaps a scientist on the forum could break down the difference between AFP, Viral meningitis, guillian barre syndrome and polio.

I know you are only going to use my own words against me but I'll take the bait…. I'm just laying the information down for everyone's benefit, so that we can all decide for ourselves.

Great posts. +1

One more point though. The US healthcare system isn't winning any worldwide awards in many categories other than top notch chronic healthcare. For example, the US was ranked in the 30s in infant mortality rate a few years ago. IMHO, lots of countries do healthcare better than the US. I wondered what their vaccination schedules are like, if they're as vaccination-happy as Americans seem to be. Lo and behold, a few people asked themselves this same question, and found a correlation between infant mortality rate and number of vaccine doses. Meaning, the higher the vaccination doses, the higher the infant mortality rate (among these chosen nations).



In this chart, you don't want to be in the upper right corner. And that's where the US is:

   

   

I guess I found my magic list of vaccines… whatever those top 5 in table 1 are doing.

[clever alias]

the fact that we've turned science into a political issue just proves how stupid we've become.

[Vroom]

Neither of my kids has had any vaccinations.

It's not that I think they'll get fucked up if they do have them, it's that I don't think they're necessary. The theory might have merit, but they've jumped the shark with pissy diseases like chicken pox and the flu being pushed as "essential". I've had the wild starins of these, I've had the mumps, and I can't help but wonder if they're grossly exaggerating the risks of these, what else is grossly exagggerated?

I'm happy for everyone else to do what they think is best for their kids, and I'll do what's best for mine. I do keep my mouth shut though - it's really quite amazing how strongly people feel about it, despite knowing nothing about it, beyond the standard spiel their GP gave them. It's a fervour that's almost religious in nature.

[The Beast1]

Coming from a family of medical professionals:

If you don't get vaccines for your kids, you're an idiot. It is called survival of the fittest and it seems emotional knee jerk reactions need to be chosen out of our current gene pool.

I personally see nothing wrong with letting the children of the non vaccine parents die off once herd immunity wears down. It's Darwinism at its finest and a perfect way to thin down the idiots who don't understand science in this country.

I'll take my chances with getting a retard kid over watching him get some stupid old disease that has been cured years ago with sound science.

This is the future for your child if you don't get vaccines.

[placer]

(03-19-2014 01:38 AM)Rotisserie Wrote:  

Lo and behold, a few people asked themselves this same question, and found a correlation between infant mortality rate and number of vaccine doses. Meaning, the higher the vaccination doses, the higher the infant mortality rate (among these chosen nations).

The study was flawed. To summarize http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/vacc...-movement/

• The authors of the study (Neil Z Miller and Gary S Goldman) have an anti-vaccination ax to grind
• There were flaws in how they counted vaccinations (Japan, as just one example, has a lot more vaccinations, but multiple vaccinations are given in the same "shot", artificially reducing their numbers to make them fit in the chart better)
• They removed four nations from the data to make their hypothesis fit better
• Comparing infant mortality rates across nations is not an apples-to-apples comparison (The US has higher numbers because they consider more infant deaths "infant mortality" than other countries)
  

[Vroom]

(03-19-2014 05:33 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

Coming from a family of medical professionals:

If you don't get vaccines for your kids, you're an idiot. It is called survival of the fittest and it seems emotional knee jerk reactions need to be chosen out of our current gene pool.

I personally see nothing wrong with letting the children of the non vaccine parents die off once herd immunity wears down. It's Darwinism at its finest and a perfect way to thin down the idiots who don't understand science in this country.

I'll take my chances with getting a retard kid over watching him get some stupid old disease that has been cured years ago with sound science.

This is the future for your child if you don't get vaccines.

Sounds fair.

But if one day in the distant future, it turns out that a certain vaccination had terrible delayed side effects that affected everyone who had had the shot, would you still take the same attitude?

[The Beast1]

(03-19-2014 06:41 AM)Vroom Wrote:  

(03-19-2014 05:33 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

Coming from a family of medical professionals:

If you don't get vaccines for your kids, you're an idiot. It is called survival of the fittest and it seems emotional knee jerk reactions need to be chosen out of our current gene pool.

I personally see nothing wrong with letting the children of the non vaccine parents die off once herd immunity wears down. It's Darwinism at its finest and a perfect way to thin down the idiots who don't understand science in this country.

I'll take my chances with getting a retard kid over watching him get some stupid old disease that has been cured years ago with sound science.

This is the future for your child if you don't get vaccines.

Sounds fair.

But if one day in the distant future, it turns out that a certain vaccination had terrible delayed side effects that affected everyone who had had the shot, would you still take the same attitude?

Nice strawman, but that day hasn't come yet and it never will.

I'll take my chances with our current medical establishment and enjoy watching the ensuing chaos for those that decided that measles is better than autism.

[Dr. Howard]

(03-18-2014 10:49 PM)Walderschmidt Wrote:  

(03-18-2014 09:54 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  

Except you also serve as a vector for that disease until you die, potentially infecting other non vaccinators, children not yet vaccinated and those not able to be vaccinated due to allergies.

Yes this is hyperbole, but you could make the argument that you feel like you'll take your chances drinking and driving and not using turn signals...and if you crash and die that is your own cross to bear. Well what if your drunken no signal crash kills me, is that my cross to bear?

True. If you put it that way, it sounds like a selfish decision on my part. But I don't think your drinking and driving analogy is so apt. As far as I know, it is against the law to drink and drive, and required by law to use turn signals. It is not required by law to take all vaccines.

Secondly, there is no risk to my person by choosing to not drink and drive and choosing to use turn signals.

If people were so concerned about people who don't take vaccines acting as disease vectors, do you think they might have made some laws about that by now? I know of no laws or attempts to enact them, at the moment.

Wald

Thats a good point about the laws. The current legal requirement is that children need to have up to date vaccines before going to daycare or public school. Its a requirement for admission but there is no further requirement or pentalty. I'd be curious as to why that is.

[kosko]

The USA stays pumping out infant deaths which is a metric which separates a first world nation from the bottom rungs of the third world. The USA also stays pumping out drooling kids from a shoddy education system that via a miracle can take a child's complex sponge mind and fill it with sand. The most powerful nation on the earth can barley pump out healthy and literate children yet I have to take their model and approach to public health as gospel.

(03-19-2014 02:21 AM)clever alias Wrote:  

the fact that we've turned science into a political issue just proves how stupid we've become.

Science has been political for the last 100 years mate. It's impossible to divide the two.

Science brought us the wonderful power of nuclear energy but inept government and crony corporations (GE) also brought us Fukishima, which stands now in a position to essentially poison half the globe. This example in real time shows the toxic marriage of both sides and literally has the capability of killing us all and yet people still put blind faith in this relationship when it has proven to never provide little good.

The science heads get to horny of their shtick. The results mean nothing if they are corrupted at its outpost. It's just like a mix down and master with music. You can have a amazing song turn to complete shit once it's destroyed and distorted via a shitty mix down at the output.

I don't reject vaccines but I just want the essential ones that I was given to be given to my child. As a baby my schedules model Sweden with only a few needles. In the 80s in Canada I believe it was only 3-5 that were given. I don't see people from my generation dropping and getting sick and I believe that my generation was one of the last to have a chance at being heathy on their own accord and not start out the gate ten step backs as a chemical laced child. I see kids today whom just drool and wheeze all day long whom are so weak they get sick every other week. Part of its is parents being sensational, part of it is poor diet, part of it is sheltered and sedentary lifestyles, and part of it is the approach to modern public healthy, but all are part of the equation that have made modern kids weak zombies in comparison to the resilient energy bombs they used to be.

Blindly shooting up infants with junk is too easy of a way to justify more sinister and Devine intentions of population control and subservience that the government loves to use. When the USA Government was testing chemical weapons in San Diego and San Francisco the medical community didn't say shit even though people greatly became sick from those experiments and one person died(they still do today, but the program has been classified since the 70s due to the media crying foul on it. Nobody knows the extent or scope in which it has grown but vaccinations were part of that plan and (less "desirable") children were used as rabbits during that time also.). Medical community sat around like shills and said nothing on the matter. Your general doctor is a good man, but the establishment that surrounds him a dosnt have a ounce of credibility anymore.

It's to easy to shoot kids up because the mother largely has the final say. I know to many "red pill" mothers whom will openly say they are skeptical, but ANY force of control that promises the security/health of their children (genuine or not) they will blindly listen too, and thus they relinquish and give in. If a mother received a verified phone call from the Government in the dead of the night saying their baby would die in 48 hours if they did not put bleach in their husbands morning coffee the majority of women would. They know nothing of morality. They will burn the village down to protect their house and thus can't be taken at their word to take a rational stance on childrens health that involves other children other then their own.

Back to public health and the lack of credibility of government. The USA has used its own as rabbits for two long and even recently has had to admit to this in Courts and Congress:

Quote:

[...]
1986 A report to Congress reveals that the U.S. Government's current generation of biological agents includes: modified viruses, naturally occurring toxins, and agents that are altered through genetic engineering to change immunological character and prevent treatment by all existing vaccines.

1987 Department of Defense admits that, despite a treaty banning research and development of biological agents, it continues to operate research facilities at 127 facilities and universities around the nation.

1990 More than 1500 six-month old black and hispanic babies in Los Angeles are given an "experimental" measles vaccine that had never been licensed for use in the United States. CDC later admits that parents were never informed that the vaccine being injected to their children was experimental.

1994 With a technique called "gene tracking," Dr. Garth Nicolson at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, TX discovers that many returning Desert Storm veterans are infected with an altered strain of Mycoplasma incognitus, a microbe commonly used in the production of biological weapons. Incorporated into its molecular structure is 40 percent of the HIV protein coat, indicating that it had been man-made.

1994 Senator John D. Rockefeller issues a report revealing that for at least 50 years the Department of Defense has used hundreds of thousands of military personnel in human experiments and for intentional exposure to dangerous substances. Materials included mustard and nerve gas, ionizing radiation, psychochemicals, hallucinogens, and drugs used during the Gulf War .

1995 U.S. Government admits that it had offered Japanese war criminals and scientists who had performed human medical experiments salaries and immunity from prosecution in exchange for data on biological warfare research.

1995 Dr. Garth Nicolson, uncovers evidence that the biological agents used during the Gulf War had been manufactured in Houston, TX and Boca Raton, Fl and tested on prisoners in the Texas Department of Corrections
[...]
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociop...pu28.htm#A History of US Secret Human Experimentation

While last year the CDC admitted that 98 million americans were exposed to a dodgy polio vaccine that was laced with a cancerous SV40 virus which were derived from monkey kidney cells which were used in the cooking of the vaccine. The CDC later deleted the info from their website but here is the screenshot:

http://www.naturalnews.com/041593_CDC_po...virus.html

The USA has a poor track record on actually genuinely having the peoples health as the first priority. The Government has always seen its citizens as the enemy and vaccinations are too easy of a slam dunk to help shape and effect the population as they see fit. This is why the Nazi's invested heavily in the same type of medicine as they saw the power it held, not the benefits it would give. Its your own choice what they do, but again I will take my chances not being part of the slovenly and sick majority. The masses have shown to be idiots, so why should I follow anything that they do? Its a simple yet powerful rhetorical question. You see the sickly sloths around you yet somehow you think its smart partaking in any trend they do? Okay. Sure. Have at it.

[bacan]

I'm afraid to read this thread... Hope no one in here is going to make me lose respect for them...

There is no merit to the anti vaccine movement.

Just Google the Penn and teller video on vaccines if it hasn't already been posted.

[Walderschmidt]

(03-19-2014 08:23 AM)bacan Wrote:  

I'm afraid to read this thread... Hope no one in here is going to make me lose respect for them...

There is no merit to the anti vaccine movement.

Just Google the Penn and teller video on vaccines if it hasn't already been posted.

I won't really lose respect for anyone on this thread unless they argue in an exceptionally poor or disrespectful manner.

At worst, I may not take medical advice from someone who disagrees with me.

Post away, good sir.

Wald

[Mike5055]

Cheers for the return of measles! I wonder what's next?

[Dr. Howard]

(03-19-2014 08:18 AM)kosko Wrote:  

The USA stays pumping out infant deaths which is a metric which separates a first world nation from the bottom rungs of the third world. The USA also stays pumping out drooling kids from a shoddy education system that via a miracle can take a child's complex sponge mind and fill it with sand. The most powerful nation on the earth can barley pump out healthy and literate children yet I have to take their model and approach to public health as gospel.

...

The USA has a poor track record on actually genuinely having the peoples health as the first priority. The Government has always seen its citizens as the enemy and vaccinations are too easy of a slam dunk to help shape and effect the population as they see fit. This is why the Nazi's invested heavily in the same type of medicine as they saw the power it held, not the benefits it would give. Its your own choice what they do, but again I will take my chances not being part of the slovenly and sick majority. The masses have shown to be idiots, so why should I follow anything that they do? Its a simple yet powerful rhetorical question. You see the sickly sloths around you yet somehow you think its smart partaking in any trend they do? Okay. Sure. Have at it.

Kosko never ceases to amaze me with quality conspiracy theory posts. This monkey kidney cancer is incredible. Repped.

[Vroom]

(03-19-2014 07:37 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

(03-19-2014 06:41 AM)Vroom Wrote:  

(03-19-2014 05:33 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

Coming from a family of medical professionals:

If you don't get vaccines for your kids, you're an idiot. It is called survival of the fittest and it seems emotional knee jerk reactions need to be chosen out of our current gene pool.

I personally see nothing wrong with letting the children of the non vaccine parents die off once herd immunity wears down. It's Darwinism at its finest and a perfect way to thin down the idiots who don't understand science in this country.

I'll take my chances with getting a retard kid over watching him get some stupid old disease that has been cured years ago with sound science.

This is the future for your child if you don't get vaccines.

Sounds fair.

But if one day in the distant future, it turns out that a certain vaccination had terrible delayed side effects that affected everyone who had had the shot, would you still take the same attitude?

Nice strawman, but that day hasn't come yet and it never will.

I'll take my chances with our current medical establishment and enjoy watching the ensuing chaos for those that decided that measles is better than autism.

It's not a strawman, it's the exact same principle you espouse.

It's a gauge of whether you formulate your beliefs and actions around your core principles, or whether they are dictated to you and rationalised afterwards.

[Suits]

(03-18-2014 08:01 PM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

(03-18-2014 07:45 PM)zigZag Wrote:  

This movement came along because stupid people who know nothing about a subject are allowed to have strong opinions about said subject. Diseases that were extinct because of vaccines are now coming back. So answer is NO.

The one percent screwed with your money and your jobs! Now they're screwing with your health!

I'd go beyond the above statement. I don't think it's a coincidence that one of the most outspoken anti-vaccine advocates, Jenny McCarthy, was picked to be on one of the most popular talk shows, "The View."

My theory is the people that run this country want those old diseases like polio and measles to come back. McCarthy and others like her are not given a voice in the media by accident.

The people who run this country have almost succeeded in eliminating the middle class through their banking chicanery and outsourcing of jobs. The anti-vaccine movement, IMO, is a way they can make the United States a two-tier, rich/poor Third World country by toying with our health.

[Faust]

Well, I've got a bit of a contrary opinion on this, though I'm relieved to see that Thomas, whose opinion I respect immensely, somewhat agrees with me.

When you say, "Are vaccines safe?" you're asking the wrong question. To use an example people on this board would be familiar with, it's no different than asking the question, "Are supplements safe?" By itself the question the question is meaningless. Which supplements? For who? In what circumstances? There's a huge difference between taking some creatine before a workout and downing massive amounts of zinc because of something you read on an internet thread.

It's the same way with vaccines. There are a ton of them, and they're used to treat a ton of diseases. They each have their own dosages and side-effects. And yes, some of them do have devastating side-effects. You don't have to take my word, or Jenny McCarthy's word, for it: here's the British government talking about how the swine flu vaccine can give you narcolepsy, a horrible, chronic disease that can ruin your entire life.

But does the fact that Swine Flu vaccine can give you narcolepsy mean you shouldn't take a polio vaccine? Of course not! The two are totally separate things. Just because one is a bad idea doesn't negate the other. But you have to be a responsible person, and that means looking up what you're being injected with, and making a decision on whether you want it or not. Don't do something just because your doctor told you to; that's being a child, not a man. I would think, I would hope, that a community of red-pillers would be smarter than that.

I look through this thread and most of the reasoning I see is horrible. Look at some of you people.
1.) Jenny McCarthy thinks vaccines can cause autism.
2.) Jenny McCarthy is an idiot.
3.) Ergo, vaccines are safe.

Or from the other side:
1.) The government wants us to take vaccines.
2.) The government is evil.
3.) Ergo, vaccines are unsafe.

In any other circumstance, you would immediately recognize this as the same bullshit you see every day from Jezebel or manboobs, or any of those other sites that are constantly bashing this community.
1.) Tuthmosis says that girls with short hair are ugly.
2.) Tuthmosis is a misogynist creep.
3.) Ergo, I'll look every bit as hot, no, even hotter, with this pixie cut.

I'm not a medical man. I don't know offhand whether it's a good idea to take any specific vaccine. But I know bullshit reasoning when I see it, and I know childish logic when I see it. And I see a lot of it here.