[Ice]

I've been thinking about the whole issue of being alpha and having a career.

Increasingly, I'm coming to the conclusion that it's actually impossible to be successful in a classic employment setting as an alpha personality. If you show your alpha side at work, and others recognise that you're naturally dominant, they will try to shoot you down. You will run into all types of problems - co-workers will try to ostracise you and your superiors will feel threatened.

Of course, the solution to this is to start a business - then you can hire betas to work for you.

But I'm just bringing up this topic because in discussions about what constitutes an alpha, alphas are often portrayed as successful professionals - investment bankers or the like. But I'm just wondering how can one really be an alpha in such a rigid and regimented environment as a bank - or any professional environment really. In order to rise up the ranks, one has to fit in, follow a lot of rules and conform. Can a real alpha really do that?

What do you think - can a true alpha have a successful career as an employee?

[GyopoPlayboy]

again with the working-for-others-is-beta thread. why do so many guys think that not having the CEO badge will automatically turn them into submissive, weak-willed beta pussies?

Ever meet a grizzled Marine gunnery sergeant back from his 4th tour of duty to Korengal Valley and think he's beta? He's not the boss. He has to follow a shit ton of rules. Matter of fact, he probably has to follow the most bullshit rules and rigid hierarchies in society today. But he's not the boss. Can he not be a true alpha? ask Aliblahblah or some of our other vets on this board.

Work in a real estate firm. Watch how aggressively "employees" there chase leads, close deals, and get shit done. They're not bosses either. But the top producers are some of the most naturally dominant alpha males (and females) you'll ever come across. they eat weak-willed pussies for breakfast, doesn't matter if it's a client or even their own boss. so they can't be alpha cuz they're not just employees?

increasingly, i'm coming to the conclusion that you don't know jack about what you're talking about.

[Hades]

This "alpha" quality that you guys obsess over too much is on a continuum. There's a point where you can be way too "alpha" to work for anybody and have to run your own business or be a criminal.

All those other guys you're talking about, working regular 9 to 5 jobs or doing salaried bullshit at an investment bank or whatever, are loose cannons by default. No matter how valuable they are or would be to the team, it's only a matter of time before some higher-up kicks them to the curb. It's just too risky to employ them.

[Ice]

(03-18-2014 10:35 AM)GyopoPlayboy Wrote:  

again with the working-for-others-is-beta thread. why do so many guys think that not having the CEO badge will automatically turn them into submissive, weak-willed beta pussies?

Ever meet a grizzled Marine gunnery sergeant back from his 4th tour of duty to Korengal Valley and think he's beta? He's not the boss. He has to follow a shit ton of rules. Matter of fact, he probably has to follow the most bullshit rules and rigid hierarchies in society today. But he's not the boss. Can he not be a true alpha? ask Aliblahblah or some of our other vets on this board.

Work in a real estate firm. Watch how aggressively "employees" there chase leads, close deals, and get shit done. They're not bosses either. But the top producers are some of the most naturally dominant alpha males (and females) you'll ever come across. they eat weak-willed pussies for breakfast, doesn't matter if it's a client or even their own boss. so they can't be alpha cuz they're not just employees?

increasingly, i'm coming to the conclusion that you don't know jack about what you're talking about.

Yeah it probably depends on the job. In a position like sales where you basically act as an entrepreneur within a company it could be different. There might be an official hierarchy, but at then end, if you close deals and make the company money you can basically do whatever you want. I worked in sales myself some time ago.

Also, military is a different thing altogether. It's definitely not a traditional work environment. I cannot say much about it though, because honestly I never met a vet and never had much to do with the army. Just because someone looks grizzled and acts tough doesn't mean much though - I met many "gangster thug" types who were actually pretty beta below the surface. But as I said, I cannot go into a discussion about the army, because I literally know 0 about it and people and the culture etc.

[WestCoast]

Look the sphere seems to have some confusion about being a wage slave employee and being some big baller business man lets break it down.

1. Apex: if you run a legit high end company clearing $1M+ per year I got nothing to say to you. You've won at life and you are a clear business man and you can walk and talk shit all day long.

2. Career versus job: this is where most people in the sphere lose their cool. What is the difference between a career and a "job". A job is where you get paid a paltry 3-5% raise every year and barely make $50-60K a year (if you're lucky you make a whopping 6 figures at 30...).

That is a wage slave. A career? That's where you're making gains and you are in a "paid for performance" type industry. Ie: sales, real estate (practically sales), online marketing (another form of sales), Wall Street (sales/stock performance), engineering (scale of design to increase... Sales and performance). Ie: scale this is called "front office" versus "back office". If you're in the back office = wage slave.

So if you're trying to be an "alpha" working at say back office job at Johnson and Johnson doing accounts payable... You're trolling.

If you're selling multi-million dollar houses bringing in that 4% commission. Well you can certainly be alpha and I don't care if you work for yourself or a major company.

No scale = not a career. That is a job.

3. Small time biz: The guys who make $100K online income. This is pretty much comparable to the career I laid out. Why? It is scaleable. That's why they continue to use the phrase wage slave but honestly I would never choose to give up my current *career* (ie not job) for some location independent gig paying a measly $100K.

Basically those are the only three options out there. Yes your career may be ruined (ie fired etc), however the same applies to screwing up your $100K per year online business (ie: if it is a dynamic site it needs constant care or else your customers go away).

That should end the debate on this "wage slave" myth.

Everyone should build a business of course but simply saying "all employees" are failures is a big joke. It is more like this "all employees that have jobs" (not careers) cannot succeed at life (financially). Therefore are not really "alpha" in that aspect of their lives. They have no scale and literally no way to get leverage on their income/outperformance.

See all positions that pay 100% hourly wage and zero performance/incentive compensation.

[Ice]

(03-18-2014 10:51 AM)Hades Wrote:  

This "alpha" quality that you guys obsess over too much is on a continuum. There's a point where you can be way too "alpha" to work for anybody and have to run your own business or be a criminal.

All those other guys you're talking about, working regular 9 to 5 jobs or doing salaried bullshit at an investment bank or whatever, are loose cannons by default. No matter how valuable they are or would be to the team, it's only a matter of time before some higher-up kicks them to the curb. It's just too risky to employ them.

Yeah I think so too - it's definitely a continuum. But yeah, that's what I meant, if you cross a certain alpha threshold you just can't work in a traditional 9 to 5 setting anymore.

As you said, it's just too risky to employ them - they just would never fit in.

But I could see that there are possibilities for them to be employees in a non-traditional setting, for example as a combat trainer in a martial arts gym, or maybe in sales, as mentioned above.

[samsamsam]

(03-18-2014 10:51 AM)Hades Wrote:  

This "alpha" quality that you guys obsess over too much is on a continuum. There's a point where you can be way too "alpha" to work for anybody and have to run your own business or be a criminal.

Agreed. I think this Alpha stuff is way too exaggerated or obsessed about. Just go about your business of being a better man each day. When you reach that point to make the decision, you should have a good idea if you can be an employee or you need to be a CEO.

If you know you can't work in a corporate environment, like I did, then you better start working on your FU money and side businesses or your own company. Start laying that foundation now.

[Ice]

(03-18-2014 11:09 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  

Look the sphere seems to have some confusion about being a wage slave employee and being some big baller business man lets break it down.

1. Apex: if you run a legit high end company clearing $1M+ per year I got nothing to say to you. You've won at life and you are a clear business man and you can walk and talk shit all day long.

2. Career versus job: this is where most people in the sphere lose their cool. What is the difference between a career and a "job". A job is where you get paid a paltry 3-5% raise every year and barely make $50-60K a year (if you're lucky you make a whopping 6 figures at 30...).

That is a wage slave. A career? That's where you're making gains and you are in a "paid for performance" type industry. Ie: sales, real estate (practically sales), online marketing (another form of sales), Wall Street (sales/stock performance), engineering (scale of design to increase... Sales and performance). Ie: scale this is called "front office" versus "back office". If you're in the back office = wage slave.

So if you're trying to be an "alpha" working at say back office job at Johnson and Johnson doing accounts payable... You're trolling.

If you're selling multi-million dollar houses bringing in that 4% commission. Well you can certainly be alpha and I don't care if you work for yourself or a major company.

No scale = not a career. That is a job.

3. Small time biz: The guys who make $100K online income. This is pretty much comparable to the career I laid out. Why? It is scaleable. That's why they continue to use the phrase wage slave but honestly I would never choose to give up my current *career* (ie not job) for some location independent gig paying a measly $100K.

Basically those are the only three options out there. Yes your career may be ruined (ie fired etc), however the same applies to screwing up your $100K per year online business (ie: if it is a dynamic site it needs constant care or else your customers go away).

That should end the debate on this "wage slave" myth.

Everyone should build a business of course but simply saying "all employees" are failures is a big joke. It is more like this "all employees that have jobs" (not careers) cannot succeed at life (financially). Therefore are not really "alpha" in that aspect of their lives. They have no scale and literally no way to get leverage on their income/outperformance.

See all positions that pay 100% hourly wage and zero performance/incentive compensation.

Yeah ok, that definitely makes sense.

But I think it's not only about financial compensation. Before I mentioned the example of a person working as a trainer in martial arts gym. That person can definitely be alpha, but he probably gets paid an hourly wage. But maybe he gets some other leverage out of his job - maybe he has a passion for improving his fighting skills and his job helps him to achieve this goal.

But yeah, I think you're right, it's all about being able to take on responsibility / agency for one's own (financial) growth.

[samsamsam]

It isn't all about money it is overall happiness (utility) where money plays a role. Figure out what the drivers of your happiness are and focus on those drivers. Those drivers can change over time as you grow, as you learn.

But you should have an idea of what they are now.

[blueshark747]

This alpha stuff is insecure and silly.
Starting to question where some people who use these terms in such a way stand as men.

Why would people feel threatened and try and shoot you down?

Part of being a secure man is being a humble man.

This isn't something an internet forum about gaming women is going to instill in you.

You gain this from experiences, trials and tribulations in life.

[WestCoast]

Ice: that's not really how I see it. You're basically mixing the term "alpha" which really means "best in class"

Alpha financially = who makes the most $
Alpha with women = simply who gets laid the most wih high quality girls
Alpha with sports = simply who is elite, ie a nfl linebacker versus a kid who only played in college
Alpha with free time = how location independent are you, ie someone like Roosh

You can be elite in "one" but not the other three. In life you want to be elite in everything you can.

So what do you want to be good at? At the end of the day if you're talking about jobs/careers it comes down to how much money you are making and how free you are.

Naturally as you have more money in the bank, item 4, freedom increases.

Most people fail at all four though, have a hourly wage slave job, can't change locations easily, don't get laid and are out of shape. That would be a "4x loser" basically not winning in anything.

So clearly the multi-millionaire business man kills it out of the gate. He has 1. And 4. Already and only has to spend time on chicks + fitness.

Making money and being location independent are the harder goals in life.

[Ice]

(03-18-2014 11:40 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  

Ice: that's not really how I see it. You're basically mixing the term "alpha" which really means "best in class"

Alpha financially = who makes the most $
Alpha with women = simply who gets laid the most wih high quality girls
Alpha with sports = simply who is elite, ie a nfl linebacker versus a kid who only played in college
Alpha with free time = how location independent are you, ie someone like Roosh

You can be elite in "one" but not the other three. In life you want to be elite in everything you can.

So what do you want to be good at? At the end of the day if you're talking about jobs/careers it comes down to how much money you are making and how free you are.

Naturally as you have more money in the bank, item 4, freedom increases.

Most people fail at all four though, have a hourly wage slave job, can't change locations easily, don't get laid and are out of shape. That would be a "4x loser" basically not winning in anything.

So clearly the multi-millionaire business man kills it out of the gate. He has 1. And 4. Already and only has to spend time on chicks + fitness.

Making money and being location independent are the harder goals in life.

Hm, I think I see it a bit differently. I do think that there is something like an "alpha personality".

You say that alpha just means "best in class". Ok, so in that case clearly Mark Zuckerberg is alpha. But I don't really see that. I mean, he is super rich - but alpha? I just have a different idea of an alpha person.

Also, if a top athlete is automatically alpha, what about a top chess player? And what about the world champion in World of Warcraft? I mean, where do you draw the line?

Also, you mentioned alpha with free time. But you can be the biggest beta / omega nerd and still be location independent. How is being location independent alpha in and of itself?

If all the people mentioned above are alpha, then this label has no meaning. I do think that alpha is a certain personality trait.

[Ice]

(03-18-2014 11:38 AM)blueshark747 Wrote:  

This alpha stuff is insecure and silly.
Starting to question where some people who use these terms in such a way stand as men.

Why would people feel threatened and try and shoot you down?

Part of being a secure man is being a humble man.

This isn't something an internet forum about gaming women is going to instill in you.

You gain this from experiences, trials and tribulations in life.

Well,

(03-18-2014 11:38 AM)blueshark747 Wrote:  

Why would people feel threatened and try and shoot you down?

there are many people who feel threatened when they're in the presence of a dominant person - or if a dominate person enters their social circle. They're afraid that they will lose their position in the social hierarchy. That happens very often.

And yeah,

(03-18-2014 11:38 AM)blueshark747 Wrote:  

Part of being a secure man is being a humble man.

that might be true, but that is not necessarily the best strategy for getting girls ..

[WestCoast]

Ice we're talking past each other. The term alpha is retarded and just means good at X.

Mark is alpha financially and location independnce wise.

He is not alpha with women or with fitness (obviously he is a skinny dude and has an ugly wife).

Personality types is a huge stupid myth in the manosphere.

There are tons of guys who could "kick my ass", chances I would ever want to live their life is next to zero though.

If I have to choose between my life or some "alpha fighter" who will be broke at 35. It's not even a question now is it?

Now if I could be an nba all star yeah of course I would pick that up. The nba all star clearly has all four. The chess master only has one (if that) being maybe some money. So he fails in everything else.

"Angry alpha personality type" = 99/100 just means failure at everything else in life.

Big boy fighter types are typically losers 99/100 later in life so who cares about them. Now if the dude is a fighter, in shape obviously with a ton of women + money... Now I'm listening.

To make my point crystal clear.

If a dude is "alpha" ie gets laid... But makes $40K a year living with his mom and is a skinny frail angry gang member. IDGAF about his opinion on anything except getting chicks. I won't listen to him on any other topic, he has nothing to teach me in terms of how to succeed (see be alpha) in making money, health, or location independence. Not even a question that a guy like that has literally nothing to offer besides a few gimmicks to meet girls.

This should be crystal clear.

---

Finally your op was about careers/jobs. The answer is clear. The most "alpha job/career" is where you make the MOST money for the LEAST location dependence. That's all it is.

[Ice]

(03-18-2014 01:22 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

Ice we're talking past each other. The term alpha is retarded and just means good at X.

Mark is alpha financially and location independnce wise.

He is not alpha with women or with fitness (obviously he is a skinny dude and has an ugly wife).

Personality types is a huge stupid myth in the manosphere.

There are tons of guys who could "kick my ass", chances I would ever want to live their life is next to zero though.

If I have to choose between my life or some "alpha fighter" who will be broke at 35. It's not even a question now is it?

Now if I could be an nba all star yeah of course I would pick that up. The nba all star clearly has all four. The chess master only has one (if that) being maybe some money. So he fails in everything else.

"Angry alpha personality type" = 99/100 just means failure at everything else in life.

Big boy fighter types are typically losers 99/100 later in life so who cares about them. Now if the dude is a fighter, in shape obviously with a ton of women + money... Now I'm listening.

Yeah I know what you mean.

Of course it's better to be a successful fighter with money than a loser broke fighter. Or having a cool happy life vs. being broke & angry and being able to kick anyone's ass.

What I was just getting at is that there are some people who seem to be able to dominate social situations just based on their personality - regardless of all extraneous factors like wealth, muscles etc. I was referring to that when I was talking about alpha.

Basically what Mark Zuckerberg is missing in order to be successful with girls.

But maybe alpha is not the right term, maybe it's better to call it charisma or something like that.

[WestCoast]

You mean you started a thread on careers when you're really saying "can a back office cubicle monkey have game"...

Basiclaly yes you can be a cubicle monkey working in back office accounting and still get laid easily.

That's a different post entirely. Hell married women bang their house keepers and shit, but the chances of me going and becoming a pool sweeper is 0%.

But again do you want to be some backoffice dork getting laid and that is it? Probably not.

I thought this was about good careers, and the manosphere is dead wrong saying all careers as an employee suck, the truth is all JOBS suck. That's for damn sure. As an example if you could make $10M a year but are "stuck" in NYC working for a "company" I doubt anyone would give 2 shits about location independence anymore haha

By that logic the SVP of a company like google is a beta! Lol at that one.

[cardguy]

Mark Zuckerberg 'chooses' to be shit with women. It is obvious he is either really in love with that broad of his - or he doesn't give a fuck about hot chicks.

Because if Mark wanted to lay the smack down - he could easily fuck as many 10's as he wants.

MONEY > GAME

[WestCoast]

^ yeah people don't realize mark could get laid in a second. So many gold diggers would be at his feet.

Hopefully this doesn't turn into a "he just likes him for his money!!!" Type argument, to which you just respond with "so?" He would still be fucking them.

[Ice]

(03-18-2014 01:51 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

You mean you started a thread on careers when you're really saying "can a back office cubicle monkey have game"...

Basiclaly yes you can be a cubicle monkey working in back office accounting and still get laid easily.

That's a different post entirely. Hell married women bang their house keepers and shit, but the chances of me going and becoming a pool sweeper is 0%.

But again do you want to be some backoffice dork getting laid and that is it? Probably not.

I thought this was about good careers, and the manosphere is dead wrong saying all careers as an employee suck, the truth is all JOBS suck. That's for damn sure. As an example if you could make $10M a year but are "stuck" in NYC working for a "company" I doubt anyone would give 2 shits about location independence anymore haha

By that logic the SVP of a company like google is a beta! Lol at that one.

No the thread was not really about whether or not a back office monkey can have game. I was referring to alpha personality types and whether or not these personality types can succeed in a regular 9 to 5 setting.

But then you said that alpha is not really about personally types but about being "best in class".

So I think we just have a different idea / definition of alpha.

But I agree with your dichotomy regarding "jobs" vs. "career".

[WestCoast]

^ in that case the answer is yes.

I know many back office alpha type guys. They get laid and have a "*interesting* personality at work". They also never get promoted and never get any responsibility becuase they are known for being immature.

So you basically don't want to do that.

What happens is they only get moved up when things are going well, and are immediately let go when they are not.

You can certainly have game and an "alpha personality" and get paid.

What is an Alpha personality is anyway?

Who would you rather be?

1) The fun out going happy go lucky guy who gets laid?
2) Or the alcoholic bad boy who gets laid?

I choose the first guy 100/100. Healthier, can maintain a high income and still gets laid. Not even a question.

If guy 2 is the only definition of alpha personality. I am a beta dweeb then. I would rather be fun and happy and get laid, than be an angry violent alcoholic.

If your best game is run in an unhappy mood, IMHO your game needs work.

[Ice]

(03-18-2014 01:51 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

By that logic the SVP of a company like google is a beta! Lol at that one.

Well, I don't know the SVP of Google, but I actually do think that there are many top executives who are beta.

[WestCoast]

^ in my experience. That is primarily false (yes there are always exceptions, Zuck as you used)

However, a guy making $1M per year is gonna get laid even if all he is doing is banging gold diggers.

The reason why it is generally false at that high level is you need leadership qualities which generally means charisma/charm = game.

[Ice]

(03-18-2014 02:02 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

What is an Alpha personality is anyway?

Who would you rather be?

1) The fun out going happy go lucky guy who gets laid?
2) Or the alcoholic bad boy who gets laid?

I choose the first guy 100/100. Healthier, can maintain a high income and still gets laid. Not even a question.

If guy 2 is the only definition of alpha personality. I am a beta dweeb then. I would rather be fun and happy and get laid, than an angry violent alcoholic.

Yeah I think "alpha personality" doesn't have to mean un-happy, violent & alcoholic - you can also be happy and have an alpha personality I think ..

[WestCoast]

^ so therefore you can easily have both.

Find that guy who is great at giving speeches, and also has a great career 9/10 he has game.

He can clearly sell, and game is just sales.

The real problem is people are pussies. Too scared I start their own business and too scared to work I a cut throat industry where your performance is actualy measured.

They would rather get a "steady paycheck" at expenses of any upside to compensation. You'll never get rich off a steady check in a back office hobgoblin position.

[Cattle Rustler]

OP thinks alpha is being like Tyler Durden from fight club....