[Blaster]

The Private Man discusses an issue I've noticed for years, even before I learned about game: It's Not Fear of Rejection, it's Fear of Punishment.

TPM quotes a commenter (LionKimbro) from another thread. LionKimbro details a variety of fears: being laughed at, public shaming, cascading negative social consequences (girl calls you 'creep' behind your back), white knights, and just generally embarassing yourself and losing future chances with the girl. The fear is fear of making mistakes, screwing up, failing to play the game properly, with and endless possibility of negative consequences.

Private Man's response is essentially to "learn social skills," but I don't think this advice is very helpful. He might intend it to be code for "game" but many betas have perfectly fine social skills except with regards to pursuing the girls they desire. My response would be more like this:

Many of the fears are overblown and unfounded. You will most likely not be laughed at, shamed, or harassed by white knights. Only experience can permanently cure these fears, though willpower, leadership, or context can temporarily alleviate them. Alcohol/drugs can also help temporarily but come with their own drawbacks.

To overcome the fear of failure and making mistakes you must learn GAME, not just 'social skills'. I, of course, recommend Roosh, but individuals may have their own preferences. You need to learn the specific techniques in order to gain the confidence needed to overcome those fears. This, in particular, is why books like Bang and Day Bang (and detailed posts like Tuthmosis's same-night lay recipe) are invaluable. They are concrete, no-nonsense techniques that can be practiced and refined.


I often use a baseball analogy. Rejection is like a strikeout. It happens. Players aren't afraid of striking out. But if you don't know the rules of baseball, don't know how to hold the bat or execute a swing properly, and don't even know how to recognize a strikeout when it happens, you're certain to embarass yousrelf. The umpire will yell at you to get the off the field and others will taunt, "do you even know how to play, asshole?" Shame and embarassment ensues. That's where the fear comes from.

It's worth noting, that kind of shame and embarassment is mostly unproductive. You'll have to suffer enormously to figure out how to play by sheer trial and error. This is why the specific rules and techniques are taught to players directly.

[Blaster]

I posted this in the Game forum because I think the message is better for potential givers-of-advice, even though it's about an issue faced primarilye by newbies.

[soup]

Very good point.

[The Beast1]

Good points.,

The trick I guess is to not be afraid of punishments. If you're going to do something, understand the consequences and be ready to laugh at it.

I was always one to test rules and break them. "You can't do!" is something I laugh at when someone tells me that.

[unbowed]

I remember an instance in Day Bang (I think) where Roosh made an approach, the girl didn't bite, and instead of laughing, the guys around gave a nod of respect. This isn't always the case though.

If someone wants baptism through fire I recommend street game during lunch hour. I remember striking out 5x in a row once and on the 5th one these little college guys walked by giggling saying "wow that guy is soooo creepy, he doesn't even know her". Looked at em, gave a little smirk and kept on. They stopped giggling after that. It's easy enough to psyche yourself out, you don't need random people punishing you.

One of the "worst" rejections I had was when I approached a girl in a shop and within 10 seconds she sneered in a loud, dramatic way "I remember you, you tried to pick me up the other day. How many times do I have to say NO! Leave me alone!" - Everyone in the vicinity shot their eyes on me. That was the first time I'd seen her, so I had no idea what she was on about, maybe that's her default line, maybe my doppleganger was trolling me. I replied, "Lady, there's no reason to raise your voice like that, especially at someone you've never met. Shame on you." and went on with my business. That was probably one of the most extreme scenarios in the daytime (at nighttime girls can live for that stuff). The security guy had no idea on how to react.

[StrikeBack]

The risk of punishments in cold approaches is very low, and only the extreme paranoids are afraid of that. There's not much help for them.

However, most guys tend to meet girls in circles where a rejection does often lead to significant punishments. Where do most guys meet and approach girls? Uni, work, parties or social events between acquaintances / friends, hobbies, gym, volunteer places etc. Often you see the same people over and over again. Bad moves can easily lead to getting socially ostracised, false accusations, terminated employment and the very least, damaged reputation (once rejected by one girl, you can pretty much kiss your chance goodbye with other girls in the same circle). It's not just the girls that do the punishing, it's everyone else joining them too.

Contrast this with other saner cultures where men are expected to hit on girls they find attractive, and failures are laughed off as a bit of fun & play by other people. Those same cultures often produce men who are better with women, as their young boys learn a lot from failures and experiments.

Boys in these sick Anglo societies are set up to be dead scared of failures while not being taught how to succeed. Is it any wonder why they grow up to be like those guys mentioned in that blog?

Of course the way to get around this is learn game, do 100 cold approaches blah blah but I'd say society would be a lot healthier if we don't punish guys severely for not having top shelf Game at puberty.

[Moreless]

Growing up I remember watching many TV shows of guys getting "punished" for failing an approach on a girl. I think this is where a lot of the fear comes from.

Then the guys in the movie would miraculously get the girl in the end, which leads the masses to think if they don't do approaches eventually they will end up with the girl because "it will just happen."

[Blaster]

(02-28-2014 12:35 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

The risk of punishments in cold approaches is very low, and only the extreme paranoids are afraid of that. There's not much help for them.

However, most guys tend to meet girls in circles where a rejection does often lead to significant punishments. Where do most guys meet and approach girls? Uni, work, parties or social events between acquaintances / friends, hobbies, gym, volunteer places etc. Often you see the same people over and over again. Bad moves can easily lead to getting socially ostracised, false accusations, terminated employment and the very least, damaged reputation (once rejected by one girl, you can pretty much kiss your chance goodbye with other girls in the same circle). It's not just the girls that do the punishing, it's everyone else joining them too.

Right. In fact, before this thread I used to use the term "consequences" more than "punishments" because in many cases I wouldn't necessarily be blaming the girl or other people for their reaction. You make an awkward play for a girl and then everyone thinks you are awkward-- that's just negative consequences no one's actively punishing you.

Quote:

Contrast this with other saner cultures where men are expected to hit on girls they find attractive, and failures are laughed off as a bit of fun & play by other people. Those same cultures often produce men who are better with women, as their young boys learn a lot from failures and experiments.

Sounds like rape culture to me.

Quote:

Boys in these sick Anglo societies are set up to be dead scared of failures while not being taught how to succeed. Is it any wonder why they grow up to be like those guys mentioned in that blog?

Precisely.

[Blaster]

(02-28-2014 01:00 AM)Moreless Wrote:  

Growing up I remember watching many TV shows of guys getting "punished" for failing an approach on a girl. I think this is where a lot of the fear comes from.

Also, if you hang around (orbit) certain types of girls a lot, they will occasionally bitch at you about "creepy" guys or complain about bad approaches while they're much less likely to tell you anything about approaches that went well. This lets you see first-hand the potential for punishment and consequences and will only reinforce the fears.

[Days of Broken Arrows]

Thanks for posting this here. I read this yesterday and found it extremely insightful.

It points out a problem...but I want to offer a solution. A great way to avoid "rejection punishment" is by meeting women who live or work one or two towns away. I've written about my old "mall game" on here. One of the elements of that is that I'd do it at malls in towns where I didn't live.

I didn't realize this at the time, but being far from home (or college) and meeting women in strange places made me a lot less self-conscious. That was because if I got rejected, well, who could "shame" me? Total strangers who would never see me again? It didn't matter so I could meet women without the impending fear described in this post.

This is probably why my mall game was so good. Also, if you're out of town you can also work up an image that your local friends would laugh at if they saw you. I used to try to look like one of the Beastie Boys and the look suited me well (unshaven, in t-shirts). But this would never have flown with my preppie crew at home.

This, by the way, is also the reason women are said to go wild when they go on vacations. Their friends and family aren't around so they can let their inner slut out without fear of judgement.

[The Beast1]

(02-28-2014 08:54 AM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

Thanks for posting this here. I read this yesterday and found it extremely insightful.

It points out a problem...but I want to offer a solution. A great way to avoid "rejection punishment" is by meeting women who live or work one or two towns away. I've written about my old "mall game" on here. One of the elements of that is that I'd do it at malls in towns where I didn't live.

I didn't realize this at the time, but being far from home (or college) and meeting women in strange places made me a lot less self-conscious. That was because if I got rejected, well, who could "shame" me? Total strangers who would never see me again? It didn't matter so I could meet women without the impending fear described in this post.

This is probably why my mall game was so good. Also, if you're out of town you can also work up an image that your local friends would laugh at if they saw you. I used to try to look like one of the Beastie Boys and the look suited me well (unshaven, in t-shirts). But this would never have flown with my preppie crew at home.

This, by the way, is also the reason women are said to go wild when they go on vacations. Their friends and family aren't around so they can let their inner slut out without fear of judgement.

Very good point, I noticed my night game improved dramatically when I went to New York City for a semester. I could blow out and make mistakes without fear because I'd never see those girls again. I fucked up hard core a bunch of different times but still made it out fine in the end. Heck, during the day I could day game without fear because lone n' behold it was so vast and big i'd never see the people again. Boston is similar which has helped me learn the nuances of social interactions, especially what to look for when getting interest from women.

At my normal college though with 6,000 students my reputation was destroyed come junior year from pumping and dumping one too many women. People talk in an environment where there are only 3 degrees of separation from people. My hometown was just as bad. Again three degrees of separation.

"I met this cool guy at the mall! His name is Frenchie!"

"Oh really? I know so and so at Rando High who said he hits on girls all the time. He's creepy."

Small towns and close knit social circles are the bane of a player's existence especially if you're lacking in the looks and muscle department. Looks play even a bigger part in small social circles since a girl will forgive a bad rep for a hot bod. The one lesson I learned from learning game in small towns.

[Private Man]

(02-28-2014 02:16 PM)frenchie Wrote:  

Small towns and close knit social circles are the bane of a player's existence especially if you're lacking in the looks and muscle department. Looks play even a bigger part in small social circles since a girl will forgive a bad rep for a hot bod. The one lesson I learned from learning game in small towns.

I currently live in a small town but it's thankfully surrounded by much more urban areas. I do not go after the local talent because all the locals know each other too well. This is why I flirt with the tourists - and there are lots of them - or sometimes the daytrippers who come east from the Broward County suburbs.

[Moreless]

(02-28-2014 02:16 PM)frenchie Wrote:  

Very good point, I noticed my night game improved dramatically when I went to Los Angeles and partied at UCLA. I could blow out and make mistakes without fear because I'd never see those girls again. I fucked up hard core a bunch of different times but still made it out fine in the end. Heck, during the day I could day game without fear because lone n' behold it was so vast and big i'd never see the people again. Boston is similar which has helped me learn the nuances of social interactions, especially what to look for when getting interest from women.

At my normal college though with 6,000 students my reputation was destroyed come junior year from pumping and dumping one too many women. People talk in an environment where there are only 3 degrees of separation from people. My hometown was just as bad. Again three degrees of separation.

"I met this cool guy at the mall! His name is Frenchie!"

"Oh really? I know so and so at Rando High who said he hits on girls all the time. He's creepy."

Small towns and close knit social circles are the bane of a player's existence especially if you're lacking in the looks and muscle department. Looks play even a bigger part in small social circles since a girl will forgive a bad rep for a hot bod. The one lesson I learned from learning game in small towns.

This is one area of game I do not quite understand because something similar happened to me at a large hospital.

Why doesn't social proof and pre-selection work in this case. It does for a little bit, but there seems to be a tipping point or maybe I did not go far enough...

[Blaster]

Pre-selection won't overcome social ostracization unless it's from someone with high status in the social circle and even then it's hard. Otherwise she is just some foreigner who must not realize how creepy you really are or else is just a skank.

Social proof is working, it's just working in reverse. The idea behind a player manipulating social proof is that girls like what other girls like. The problem is the converse is also true-- girls dislike what other girls dislike. So if you wind up with a bad rep, it'll spread. Of course, there's a difference between a 'creep' rep and a 'badboy' rep.

[iamdegaussed]

(02-28-2014 02:16 PM)frenchie Wrote:  

(02-28-2014 08:54 AM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

Thanks for posting this here. I read this yesterday and found it extremely insightful.

It points out a problem...but I want to offer a solution. A great way to avoid "rejection punishment" is by meeting women who live or work one or two towns away. I've written about my old "mall game" on here. One of the elements of that is that I'd do it at malls in towns where I didn't live.

I didn't realize this at the time, but being far from home (or college) and meeting women in strange places made me a lot less self-conscious. That was because if I got rejected, well, who could "shame" me? Total strangers who would never see me again? It didn't matter so I could meet women without the impending fear described in this post.

This is probably why my mall game was so good. Also, if you're out of town you can also work up an image that your local friends would laugh at if they saw you. I used to try to look like one of the Beastie Boys and the look suited me well (unshaven, in t-shirts). But this would never have flown with my preppie crew at home.

This, by the way, is also the reason women are said to go wild when they go on vacations. Their friends and family aren't around so they can let their inner slut out without fear of judgement.

Very good point, I noticed my night game improved dramatically when I went to Los Angeles and partied at UCLA. I could blow out and make mistakes without fear because I'd never see those girls again. I fucked up hard core a bunch of different times but still made it out fine in the end. Heck, during the day I could day game without fear because lone n' behold it was so vast and big i'd never see the people again. Boston is similar which has helped me learn the nuances of social interactions, especially what to look for when getting interest from women.

At my normal college though with 6,000 students my reputation was destroyed come junior year from pumping and dumping one too many women. People talk in an environment where there are only 3 degrees of separation from people. My hometown was just as bad. Again three degrees of separation.

"I met this cool guy at the mall! His name is Frenchie!"

"Oh really? I know so and so at Rando High who said he hits on girls all the time. He's creepy."

Small towns and close knit social circles are the bane of a player's existence especially if you're lacking in the looks and muscle department. Looks play even a bigger part in small social circles since a girl will forgive a bad rep for a hot bod. The one lesson I learned from learning game in small towns.

I'm wondering if this is something true because I've found I have much worse approach anxiety when I'm at home at my local bars than when I know I likely won't see people again. The other night I was DD'ing in my small hometown and the anxiety was tough as a motherfucker, but two weekends ago I was down in Durham, NC and day approached like 10 girls on the campus no problem. It's this weird reputation self preservation bullshit I have to get over because usually 'the worst that could happen' isn't going to happen.

[Giovonny]

Fear of "rejection", fear of "punishment"..

It's all the same thing to me..

It's fear of a hypothetical, imaginary, future scenario that may or may take place.

I say, just reduce the fear.

How to do that?

Face it head on with courage. Approach good looking girls until the fear is reduced.

Fear of females is just like any other fear. The best way to overcome it is repetition and practice; which leads to comfort and familiarity.

Approach 10 hot girls today, your fear will be reduced today.

Approach 10 more tomorrow, your fear problem might be fixed!

[All or Nothing]

(02-27-2014 02:08 PM)Blaster Wrote:  

TPM quotes a commenter (LionKimbro) from another thread. LionKimbro details a variety of fears: being laughed at, public shaming, cascading negative social consequences (girl calls you 'creep' behind your back), white knights, and just generally embarassing yourself and losing future chances with the girl. The fear is fear of making mistakes, screwing up, failing to play the game properly, with and endless possibility of negative consequences.

These things will happen. It is inevitable.

Someone who cold approaches consistently, 300-500 girls a year, will have things blow up in their face from time to time.

The key is in how one deals with "punishment".

If getting yelled at publicly or being called a creep is enough to stop you from becoming highly successful with women, then you do not want it badly enough.

On the journey to greatness, there will always be non-believers and those that want to tear self-improving man down.

Face them head on, and let them hurt you because each time you recover you will only be a stronger man than who you were before.

[Blaster]

(03-03-2014 03:49 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

Fear of females is just like any other fear. The best way to overcome it is repetition and practice; which leads to comfort and familiarity.

There's a common phrase "practice makes perfect," but that's only half the story. The phrase should be "perfect practice makes perfect", otherwise you are just reinforcing bad habits. That's how niceguys wind up with a dozen female friends but no sex. That's how you can spend 10 hours a week practicing Stairway to Heaven and never learn to play anything else.

[The Beast1]

(03-03-2014 03:33 PM)iamdegaussed Wrote:  

I'm wondering if this is something true because I've found I have much worse approach anxiety when I'm at home at my local bars than when I know I likely won't see people again. The other night I was DD'ing in my small hometown and the anxiety was tough as a motherfucker, but two weekends ago I was down in Durham, NC and day approached like 10 girls on the campus no problem. It's this weird reputation self preservation bullshit I have to get over because usually 'the worst that could happen' isn't going to happen.

Ha! I have the same problem. I call it the Jesus of Nazareth syndrome.

Jesus was never able to perform a miracle in Nazareth (his home town). Why? Because everyone knew that he wasn't Joseph's son and openly mocked him for it.

Now, I know I can game my own home town now since most of the people I went to high school with are gone. But the fear is still around.

One of the hardest lessons I've learned is social proofing herd mentality among liberal circles. My college was a hell hole of blue pill thinking left and right.

One lesson that I learned was the only way to get away with being a "player" at least for me was being athletic and fit. Being a skinny guy in a small social environment works against you. Pook wrote about it in his book. People for some reason "forgive" bigger guys for social faux pas and for being a player. When I was skinny, all of my social skills were for naught since my reputation was beaten to hell. Now being bigger, I can get away with more as i've been able to attest at my church (HUGE fear of social alienation there for being easy).


One thing that is never talked about in the whole, "Go out and talk to 10 hot women" is that by doing this especially if you have no game is dangerous in a small community be it college or a small town. You can wind up learning game but alienating potential talent with a bad rep!

It is best to leave and go to a place where no one knows you. The bigger the better. I get the impression the top 10 DMA markets are perfect for such experiments.

[Noah]

I feel like the answer to this is to run less aggressive game on the girls you know from your social circle. You want to be known as the fun, attractive guy who gets laid, not the creepy guy who hits on anything with two tits and a vagina. I haven't had a problem with fear of punishment from cold approaches, but I live in LA so that may play a part.