[nek]

Just curious. Friend and I were discussing fear today and this came up, although we couldn't figure out why someone would be afraid of succeeding. Even I suffer from it from time to time (resulting in me half-assing my effort), yet I can't figure out where it might stem from.

[Quintus Curtius]

Good question...a lot more profound than it first appears.

I think it has to do with a lot of things. It helps to first define "success" and "non-success" as a collection of habits, and a way of thinking.

People define themselves by their perception of themselves. And many people, over their lives, have developed "ruts" in their thinking that prevent them from achieving "success". Their minds literally are stuck in a groove, and they feel comfortable staying there.

People will do more in life to avoid pain than they will to seek pleasure. And even though "success" would theoretically bring more pleasure, it involves some degree of risk. Risk of failure, risk of ridicule, risk of shattering a comfortable prejudice. So, most people won't take the risk.

Success brings responsibilities, new challenges, and new perspectives. For most people, it is safer and more comfortable to sit in their own warm pile of shit, than to get up and face the challenges of life.

Deep down, most people don't want success. Most people don't want to improve themselves. Sad, but true.

So, it all comes down to fear, and the inability to get out of one's ingrained ways of thinking.

[nek]

(01-20-2014 05:05 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

Good question...a lot more profound than it first appears.

I think it has to do with a lot of things. It helps to first define "success" and "non-success" as a collection of habits, and a way of thinking.

People define themselves by their perception of themselves. And many people, over their lives, have developed "ruts" in their thinking that prevent them from achieving "success". Their minds literally are stuck in a groove, and they feel comfortable staying there.

People will do more in life to avoid pain than they will to seek pleasure. And even though "success" would theoretically bring more pleasure, it involves some degree of risk. Risk of failure, risk of ridicule, risk of shattering a comfortable prejudice. So, most people won't take the risk.

Success brings responsibilities, new challenges, and new perspectives. For most people, it is safer and more comfortable to sit in their own warm pile of shit, than to get up and face the challenges of life.

Deep down, most people don't want success. Most people don't want to improve themselves. Sad, but true.

So, it all comes down to fear, and the inability to get out of one's ingrained ways of thinking.

Yeah I've always understood the fear of attempting success due to the fact that it means you could fail, but this is really the fear of failure. Sometimes, success is within reach, with a good probably of it actually happening, but then people stop. I've done this sometimes myself. Can't pinpoint why. Even in situations where success would mean no new challenges or responsibilities. I'll have to think about this more.

[Quintus Curtius]

It's not so much the failure that they're afraid of. It's the success they're afraid of.

Many people don't want to be successful. That's the real fear. Being successful means more work, more responsibility, more scrutiny.

It's fun and comfortable to be a fat loser. People want to sit in shit and complain.

You can blame the world for everything. You can blame it on a hundred imaginary bugbears.

[Blaster]

Fear of success is often due to fear of increased responsibility or other adverse consequences. Being famous, for example, has obvious pros and cons. Fame attracts women but it also attracts haters, parazzi, obsessive fans, etc. Hard to have one without the other.

Also, it's probably legitimate to suggest that sometimes there's a "fear of immediate success" or "fear of partial success" which is basically the fear of initial or early success that merely raises the stakes and makes future failure harder to take. For example an approach that seems to be going well until a warpig cockblock shows up, makes a scene, and ruins your night. Would have been better off getting rejected immediately.

[Peregrine]

Fear of success may be rooted in the fear of change, fear of the unknown, and fearing the loss of one's (current) identity.

Interesting topic. I've also struggled with this fear so I'll be following the thread.

[Dr. Howard]

Remember how the kids who excelled in school were made fun of? Remember how 'uncool' it was to be smart?

Thats where I think the fear of success comes from. Being at the top is a socialized stigma from an early age in America and Canada. People are afraid to stand out in a positive way as much as they are a negative. They don't want to endure the haters.

[CaliforniaSupreme]

I've never heard of being "afraid of success," only the opposite. Perhaps people worry too much about the future rather than enjoy the moment? If you've got haters, you're either doing something right or terribly wrong. The wrong is usually more obvious than the right.

[Bad Hussar]

Mmm, very interesting. I tend to side more with Nek in that I think that fear of success is usually just a certain type of fear of failure dressed up as something that sounds better.

Are people really afraid of success and the changes it might bring, or (and this is usually the case for me), are they just afraid that they will fail at their endeavor and then the dreams/plans in their head can no longer stay as they were? They'd rather just imagine success than risk the chance of failure that inevitably comes with action.

Fear of success is usually described as fear of change, even good change, or rooted in low self esteem (I don't deserve success). Not really sure I buy this, but am interested what others experiences are.

[Veloce]

Fear and laziness both stem from a fear of discomfort.

As animals we evolve to seek comfort. We look for reliable sources of food, water, shelter, warmth, sex, etc. When we find one we instinctually settle into habits that sustain our supply of those comforts.

But then another instinct develops eventually that craves variety, so you've got two alternating instincts that determine behavior: comfort, and variety, and they play off each other in a number of ways. Some people need to really play it safe and they dip their toe in the water before going in ankle deep. Other people are more spontaneous and jump in without hesitation. Everyone is different.

Nobody knows for sure that they're going to be successful when venturing out, otherwise there would be no fear. You could liken this to running full speed into a pitch black room; it could be full of poisonous snakes or it could be a room stacked to the ceiling with gold and treasure.

[Grit]

Looking at it from an evo biology perspective:

Imagine a small tribe. The successful guy gets all the attention, but also all of the envy. People expect constant results that prove you are still the best, and when you show weakness, they have a hardwired desire to see the best square off with second best.

For the rabble out there, consider every sports matchup or mma fight. People luuuuurv to see the number two fight the number one. Hell, even women like to pit their own personal number two versus number one. When to guys want to bone, no one is going to hold her accountable for casually pitting one against the other.

In summary, fear of success is fear of the rabble, the crowd, the emotions of the masses. You get to dance to their tune.

[Cyr]

I agree with a lot of what Quintus said. At root, a lot of people would truly rather take the path of least resistance through life, and sit on the sofa with a beer in front of the tv, than be a guy like McQueen and worry about deep conversion game- a fear of what success entails. Also some people are too tied up into their current identity and feel that success will endanger this- if I buy this business and get rich, will my friends like me? My family? Also, a lot of social groups do shame people for success. I know from personal experience, as a few years ago when I started going to the gym, many of my (then) friends tried to put me off saying its a waste of time etc..

[cardguy]

People aren't scared of success. They are scared of failure.

And if you don't try - you can't fail.

[AntiTrace]

(01-21-2014 02:41 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

People aren't scared of success. They are scared of failure.

And if you don't try - you can't fail.

exactly what I was going to say.

Have you ever got an idea, and put 100% of yourself into it for months on end, and then have it just flat out fail?

It's fucking heartbreaking. The kind of stuff that can drive a grown man to cry.

That's what people are really afraid of.

But you gotta risk that. And if it happens you gotta cry it out (or be a man and drink yourself stupid for a night or two) and then jump back on the horse, figure out what happened, figured out where you went wrong, learn from your mistakes, and drive the fuck on with idea 2.

[cardguy]

Yeah - there was a scene near the beginning of 'Back To The Future' along these lines.

It always stuck with me from a young age since it resonanted with my (at the time) intense desire to be a professional footballer.

Marty McFly (Michael J Fox's character) has an important audition for some band.

And at the last minute he decides not to go.

He explains to his girlfirend that as much as he wants to be a successful musician - he just can't handle the idea of being rejected and failing. As such he wants to duck the audition.

I think his girlfriend talks him round into going in the end. But - nevertheless - it was a scene which stuck with me.

[Blaster]

(01-21-2014 02:41 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

People aren't scared of success. They are scared of failure.

And if you don't try - you can't fail.

This gets misleading, though, because it makes it seem like success and failure are the only possible outcomes. Reality is usually more subtle than that.

[kbell]

If you succeed you fear people might expect more out of you. Than the thought of failing where you previous succeeded can be quite unbearable if you let it become that way.

[Benoit]

(01-21-2014 07:07 PM)Blaster Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 02:41 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

People aren't scared of success. They are scared of failure.

And if you don't try - you can't fail.

This gets misleading, though, because it makes it seem like success and failure are the only possible outcomes. Reality is usually more subtle than that.

You should read Mindset by Carol Dweck, it's a game-changer in understanding why people see it as a binary choice.


The "fixed" mindset - You believe that you are successful because you're superior, therefore any failure is direct evidence that you are not perfect and damages your ego.

The "growth" mindset - You believe that you are successful because you work harder than anyone else. There is no failure, only identifying areas you need to work on more.


I keep meaning to do a write-up of the book, it's interesting and practical, and can be applied to all areas of life. I started seeing people in terms of their mindset instantly.

Here's an example of the growth mindset from Arnie:

Quote:

In the summer at the lake I could surprise everyone by showing up with a different body. They'd say, "Jesus, Arnold, you grew again. When are you going to stop?" "Never," I'd tell them. We'd all laugh. They thought it amusing. But I meant it.

[funkyzeit]

In a lot of cases, success mean changing your lifestyle and losing what you have now in exchange for something different. People have a hard time dealing with that truth.

[Days of Broken Arrows]

(01-20-2014 07:14 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  

Remember how the kids who excelled in school were made fun of? Remember how 'uncool' it was to be smart?

Thats where I think the fear of success comes from. Being at the top is a socialized stigma from an early age in America and Canada. People are afraid to stand out in a positive way as much as they are a negative. They don't want to endure the haters.

^^^^
Totally agree with the above answer. And it goes beyond peer ridicule. Some of our earliest experiences are with doing something we thought was great but having teachers, parents, and siblings come down hard on us.

For example, I was an excellent reader and when we got our first grade "readers" (i.e. a big anthology of stories), I was good enough to blow through the whole book in a weekend. When I told the teacher -- expecting praise and a new book -- she went crazy because I didn't "follow the assignment." She moved my desk into the hall for a week, my father was called up to school, and I'll spare you all the rest.

This had to have some effect on me. Others might have been able to laugh it off, but I didn't.

[soup]

These are all good posts- I wish there was a like button on the iPhone version of rvf.

I'd bet it can be argued that some men might have an inherent preference to beta and stay under the radar and let the alphas take all the risk. It seems like a pretty solid evolutionary survival strategy, and would show that just because there are alphas, it doesn't mean that they are completely in control of the kingdom, and they are, in fact, being used just as much they use other people.

I believe Game of Thrones was actually inspired by real historical events of a power vacuum that opened up in Europe hundreds of years ago. The plots in that show are an example of the social dynamic I'm describing; despite surface appearances, the king is not the most powerful agent in the land.

[Frank]

^
I'm no history buff, but I read somewhere that GoT was based on the "War of the Roses".

[Parlay44]

Jealousy. Losing friends. More responsibility. People looking for handouts.

[cardguy]

I know nothing about Game of Thrones. But I thought I read somewhere that it is an attempt to reimagine what history would be like if Christanity (or any other peaceful religions) didn't exist.