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Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics
#51

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

Full disclosure: I own some Bitcoin and some Litecoin. I have done quite a bit of reading, but it is possible that some aspects of this post are slightly inaccurate, especially in the technical details.

Note for those new to Bitcoin: Bitcoin is a complicated and very new technology. Try not to have a knee-jerk reaction until you finish reading this post. There are links answering some very common questions at the bottom, but I suggest you read this post for a good overview first.

One Bitcoin is currently trading at between $300 and $400 USD.

Bitcoin?
Bitcoin is an open source software project that describes and regulates a new form of virtual currency, also called Bitcoin. If you want to check out the source code, here it is:

Source

As a virtual currency, based on cryptography, it has a number of special properties. Firstly, it fills Aristotle’s basic criteria for money in the same way that gold and US dollars do:

1.Fungible: it can be subdivided. 1 Bitcoin can be divided down into at least a hundred million “Satoshis”, the smallest unit of exchange. Even if Bitcoin replaced the entire world’s money supply, 1 satoshi would be worth about a couple of cents USD, allowing for transactions on a small scale. Additionally, up to a further eight orders of magnitude of decreasing size can be patched into the software if necessary.)
2.Portable: An unlimited number of Bitcoins can be stored on almost any electronic device (computer, laptop, cellphone) or even on paper!
3.Durable: Bitcoins cannot be destroyed, melted down, wear out or anything similar. Once you have a Bitcoin, it will exist until the end of time in theory. In practice, it exists as long as a copy of the source code and at least one computer in the world still carries the Blockchain (see below).
4.Intrinsic value: Since there is a known limit of 21 million, Bitcoin has value by scarcity.

Read more about Aristotle and money here

A diagram for ease of comparison to other forms of value storage (Bitcoin would get all ticks).

[Image: attachment.jpg15331]   

In addition, and unlike any other store of value, Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency. This means it has the properties:
•No transaction can ever be prevented by an authority. The software is peer to peer, so even though if the government made Bitcoin illegal, the most they could do is track down users and punish them in retrospect, they could never prevent Bitcoins being exchanged in the first place (they can’t freeze your Bitcoin account like they can with a bank).
•It is cheap. While there is a small fee for transactions, it is less than a few cents USD, and is required to incentivize miners to power the network. This fee will never be raised, nor can any government, bank or regulatory authority impose a tax on Bitcoin.
•Bitcoin is transmissible across distances that no other store of value is (besides online fiat currency). A Bitcoin user can send Bitcoins to someone standing next to them in Canada as easily as they can to someone in Africa in less than 15 minutes. Obviously, the same is not possible with gold, land etc.
•It *can be* anonymous. See Anonymity below.

Origins and Satoshi Nakamoto

Bitcoin was first proposed in a white paper released in 2008. If you’ve got some serious maths skills, feel free to take a read:

White Paper

The author published anonymously, under the name “Satoshi Nakamoto”. He then released the software for the Bitcoin protocol in 2009 (iirc). He posted on the largest Bitcoin forum in 2009 and 2010, but gradually began to tail off. When asked, he said he had “moved on to other things”. He has not posted since 2011. He handed development of the software over to a guy called Gavin Andersen. Analysis of Satoshi’s programming style indicates that he was likely not a professional programmer, but instead some kind of Maths PhD that taught himself to code for this purpose in the two years it took him to write the software. Analysis of his forum posts indicates a native level of English fluency, as well as inconsistent usage of British / American style.

The most popular theories are that Satoshi was either a British or American maths professor that deliberately altered his writing in this way to help conceal his identity or that the software and pseudonym as a whole was a collaboration between a team comprising both Americans and Brits.

Some people claim to lack trust in the software, as the unknown author means it could have been written by the NSA or someone similar with a backdoor inserted for their own benefit. This is unlikely, as the open source nature of the project means that it is highly improbable that none of the contributors or reviewers since has spotted the weakness.

However, no one knows for sure.

Satoshi Nakamoto is also now a very rich. No one knows how much mining he did himself in the early days of the software, or if he has been active buying and trading since, but it is very likely that he has hundreds of thousands of Bitcoins. There is a strange stash of almost a million Bitcoins that has yet to be touched that no one is sure if Satoshi has access to or not. This alone is worth more than $300 million USD at today’s prices. In addition, he could have any number of other accounts that were never made public.

Mining

Bitcoin is generated by mining, or “hashing”, which is where your computer runs through a ton of large (64 digit) numbers looking for one which matches a prescribed set of attributes (similar to brute force code breaking). This is to do with the white paper Satoshi released, cryptography and proof of work. I don’t understand the details that well myself. Suffice to say, if your computer finds one that fits, the system pays you out some bitcoins.

You gotta be quick though, because if someone else finds the next number before you do (which is a function of computing power and chance), then they get the payout, release that number onto the Blockchain (see below) and you have to abandon the work you were doing to start again from the new “checkpoint” that they’ve reached.

The software is internally regulating so that it released Bitcoins at a fixed amount every 10 minutes, no matter how much hashing power is working on finding the winning numbers. The payout for finding a winning number halves every once in a while, so that the input of new currency is on a curve increasing at a decreasing rate. Payout used to be 50, but is currently 25, and is going to halve to 12.5 in the not too distant future.

The final number of Bitcoins will be 21 million (or a fraction under) which will be reached in around the year 2140. Currently, more than 11 million Bitcoins are in existence.

Back in the early days, you could just run your laptop and mine some Bitcoins, but more and more people have joined in, and the computing requirements are now well above that of standard desktop computers (yes, even if you have a “sick gaming rig”). In fact, because even with a lot of computing power your chances of hitting a payout are quite small, miners form collectives called “mining pools” which increases their chance of finding a winning number, with the reward then shared amongst them proportionally as per their contributing computer power. This allows their return to be somewhat more predictable than it would be otherwise.

If you’re just hearing about Bitcoin now, don’t even consider mining unless you’re the owner of a large corporation with a couple million to throw at the project. A lot of specialized hardware is already running for guys that have been doing this for years and have you totally outmatched.

In fact, a lot of people got ‘scammed’ because they preordered Bitcoin optimized hardware called “ASIC miners”. These miners promised to return the several thousand dollar cost in Bitcoin value in just 10 days, and be profitable investments from then on. Of course, the companies that developed these things with the money raised from pre-orders then mysteriously “delayed delivery”, ran the miners themselves for massive profits, and will only deliver them once the network’s hashing power grows to such a size that the hardware is obsolete.

It’s too late for mining, don’t bother.

Once all 21 million Bitcoins have been mined, the miners will continue to provide hashing power to keep the transactions on the network flowing in exchange for the small fee (less than a few US cents) on every Bitcoin transaction.

The Exchanges

Of course, if you can’t mine Bitcoin yourself, you can either earn them in exchange for some service/product, or just buy them. The buying is facilitated by Exchanges, that are functionally identical to Stock Exchanges like Wall Street.

The largest exchange is now BtcChina. The previous largest was MtGox (“Mt” pronounced “Mount”), an American site that used to trade the collectible card game “Magic: The Gathering” (hence the name, “M(agic) t(he) G(athering) o(nline) (e)x(change)). MtGox is still considered the leader in terms of price change, but this is beginning to become less clear. Other popular exchanges include BTC-E and BitStamp (the UK version of MtGox).

The prices for Bitcoins differ slightly on the exchanges, which are moderated by a process called “arbitraging”. If a Bitcoin is $400 on MtGox and $350 on BTC-E, than I can buy a Bitcoin on BTC-E and sell it on MtGox for a $50 profit. These trades then raise the price on BTC-E and lowers it on MtGox, reducing the profitability of others doing the same and bringing the exchanges closer to equilibrium. However, this process is not without some risk, as not only does it require accounts with both exchanges and accepting the loss of exchange fees, but the volatility of Bitcoin could mean that while making the transfer from one exchange to another a rapid rise or crash could leave you stranded at a massive deficit, especially at a large volume.

Of course, as the paradigm-shifting innovation it is, Bitcoin is a real worry for banks, the government and online currency vendors like PayPal. This means that you can encounter a lot of difficulty (and / or fees) trying to transfer your funds from a traditional currency into or out of an exchange. PayPal has frozen a bunch of accounts that they’ve spotted shifting funds around for buying and selling Bitcoin. Banks have done the same, I know of a couple of cases in America and Australia. The US government shut down Dwolla (a PayPal alternative) recently too, because they were making it too easy for people to buy Bitcoin (and filling the void that PayPal left).

Personally, I think this is very very strong evidence that Bitcoin is a real game changer, but you make up your own mind. In any case, if buying Bitcoin be very cautious about how you do so.

The Blockchain

Bitcoin is recorded in the Blockchain, an online, freely available ledger of all the transactions made. You can check it out here:

Blockchain

Anyone with a Bitcoin wallet also has the Blockchain stored, and needs to keep it updated (wallets do it automatically). This is because the entire network is agreed upon which set of transactions has taken place, meaning no-one can “double spend” their Bitcoins.

The Bitcoin protocol itself makes the Blockchain and any updates to the software entirely “democratic”. That is, the version which has the support of 51% of the network is the only working version at any time. This means the major and pretty much only vulnerability in Bitcoin is if some malicious entitity or mining pool is able to grab control of 51% of the hashing power of the network, as they could then rewrite transactions or double spend Bitcoins at will. This is not a major concern however because:
1.The current network is incredibly large, and nothing short of the US or Chinese government has much chance at expending enough resources to make this possible. Eventually, this too will cease to be realistic.
2.Current mining pool operators are aware of this issue, and proactively take steps to stop people joining their pool or cut out current miners if they are reaching anything approaching critical mass. This is in everyone’s best interests (including theirs), as if they did seize control of the network then the value of Bitcoin would drop to zero and it wouldn’t matter how many transactions they could make, as everyone would boycott transactions until they voluntarily let go of their monopoly.

When making a Bitcoin transfer, you send out a request to the network and wait for enough peers to confirm its inclusion in the Blockchain that you know there is a (close to) impossible probability that your transaction will be overwritten because it is deemed invalid.

If I have 1 Bitcoin in my address, and I send it to El Mech, but then decide I’m going to be sneaky and before enough confirmations have been received I also send it to Aliblahba, at worst both of the transactions get identified as double spending and neither goes through and at best one transfer or the other gets counted as valid and is processed while the other is identified as double spending and is invalidated. Which one depends on which the closest network peers pick up on and propagate first.

To read more about a 51% attack and double spending, see here.

Anonymity

Bitcoin can be and is both 100% anonymous and 100% transparent. This is an important thing to wrap your head around, and one of the most easily misunderstood aspects of Bitcoin by the uneducated.

Bitcoin is 100% transparent because it is defined in the Blockchain. Every transaction ever made in Bitcoin is recorded there (and on every device that runs Bitcoin) for all time. At any stage it is possible to go back and check out the entire history of any wallet’s complete transaction list. Which addresses it sent to and received from, how much was transacted, when it happened. Consequently, the current balance of Bitcoin in any one wallet is also publicly available. If you want to try this out yourself, go to the Blockchain website (see The Blockchain above) and search the address I’ve listed under Tip Me (below). You’ll be able to see if any RVF’ers were kind enough to send me some, and how many.

Bitcoin is 100% anonymous because there is nothing linking any individual to a Bitcoin address (at least initially). If you don’t know who owns a Bitcoin address, unless they’ve used it for a service that ties it to other information such as their name or address (eg. if you buy something on Amazon with Bitcoin, and they store your wallet address alongside your email and postal address) and you can access that service’s information, there is no way you can find out. If you only ever use Bitcoin for face-to-face transactions, and don't tell anyone else your address, only you and the people you have transacted with will ever know that the wallet address belongs to you.

In addition, sites like The Silk Road take advantage of the fact that users can make just two transactions with a Bitcoin wallet (send money in somehow, then use it to buy something) and then never use that wallet again. Obviously this makes it difficult to tie such addresses to the end user. There are enough Bitcoin wallet addresses for everyone alive today to have more than 100 million each. Maybe one day this restriction will be a problem the world will have to cope with (kinda like the Y2K bug), but it won’t be in our lifetime.

Bitcoin anonymity can also be preserved by use of trading into Altcoins (see below).

Finally, there are also projects underway working on increasing the ability to use Bitcoin anonymously. For example, Dark Wallet.

Bitcoin is as anonymous or open as you want it to be. Do your research, and act according to your needs.

Potential and Merchant Adoption

Bitcoin is commonly known for facilitating the trade of illegal drugs on online marketplace The Silk Road thanks to its potential for anonymity (see above). After the site got shut down, the value of Bitcoin dropped from around $140 to around $100, but then quickly recovered and in less than two days was trading around $180. The FBI seized a bunch of Bitcoins from the site’s administrator Ross Ulbricht (aka Dread Pirate Roberts), which are publicly traceable thanks to the Blockchain. They haven’t done anything with them so far, but claim they will sell them at auction after the trial. If you’re interested in all this drama, Google it and you can read more. Silk Road 2.0 has just opened a couple of days ago, and is back in the Bitcoin business.

I would not be surprised to see a time when the Bitcoin comes to the RVF's aid, as it allows "subversive" places like this to transact without the approval of the government or feminists, no matter how mad they get.

However, Bitcoin is also seeing increasing adoption at vendors of more legitimate standing. As well as a few bars and pubs beginning to accept it as payment (there are a couple in the UK, and one in Beijing) as a publicity stunt, there are a growing number of online websites that will accept Bitcoin (check out the links at the bottom for one good example).

To integrate Bitcoin into your own business, check out:
Coinbase

Of course, as a peer-to-peer currency Bitcoin is being used between devotees for their own commerce all the time. If you do a bit more reading, you’ll find articles about people agreeing with their landlord to pay rent in Bitcoin, or having their salary paid in Bitcoin.

Some strong Bitcoin believers hold that Bitcoin will become globally adopted or be used as the next world reserve currency. It’s entirely possible, and the kicker is that for a planet of several billion people there are only 21 million Bitcoins to go around. Consequently, some analysts predict an eventual price of $100 000 to $1 million USD or more. If everyone in the world put 2% of their liquid holdings into Bitcoin, it would reach the $100 00 mark.

I encourage every RVF member to buy at least a single Bitcoin, as soon as you can. Anytime before they reach $500 USD is a bargain. It won’t be any great loss if the whole thing falls apart, but it could be an investment of incredible importance in 3 - 20 years time.

Altcoins

Bitcoin is the largest and most popular cryptocurrency, but a bunch of copies have sprung up, each proposing its own particular “innovations”. These copies are collectively called “Altcoins” or “alts” for short.

The largest altcoin is called “Litecoin” (nicknamed “chikun" by its devotees) and is currently worth about $3-4 USD. Bitcoin is about $300 - $400 USD, so as you can see there is still a lot of room for it to grow. Litecoin’s major innovation on Bitcoin is that there are 4 times as many that will eventually exist and transactions on the Litecoin blockchain are significantly faster. This leads many people to believe that Litecoin will stabilize at around 1-4th of Bitcoin’s value, and subsequently be used as “small change” in the real world. You might buy a house with Bitcoin, because you can afford to sit around and wait for the network confirmations, but you will buy your McDonalds drive through with Litecoin.

In addition, there is some merit to having a “backup” crytocurrency active along with Bitcoin. For example, having free and steady exchange between Bitcoin and Litecoin helps with anonymity, as if you are being tracked you can sell all your Bitcoin for Litecoin, and then immediately buy back into Bitcoin. However, your Bitcoin is now stored at a different address then before, but with no traceable record stored in the Blockchain.

There are a lot of other altcoins, none of which seems to be very different. This includes:

Namecoin
Primecoin
Feathercoin
Worldcoin
and a bunch more

I haven’t done a lot of research, but apparently Namecoin does have some relatively different properties. The rest are so small that they’re unlikely to be adopted by merchants, incredibly vulnerable to price manipulation, and likely to drop to zero or eventually be subsumed by Bitcoin.

Many of these altcoins are still minable using basic computing hardware, so look into that if you want. Be warned though, that lots of the software purporting to allow you to mine these currencies is really a virus that will instead look for Bitcoin / Litecoin wallets on your computer and steal the funds in them. Venture here at your own risk.

A really good article criticizing altcoins.

My opinion: Bitcoin has value and so does Litecoin. The rest will make one or two millionaires, and thousands and thousands of others will waste their money. Go play in Vegas if you’re into that kind of thing, it’ll be more fun.

Tip Me

I came a bit late to the Cryptocurrency party, and don’t have anywhere near as much as I’d like. More for demonstrative purposes than because I expect anyone to do so, appreciation for this post can be sent by any Bitcoin or Litecoin owner here:

BTC:
1NScWxVHqBDLCTdgfLjafMTDF32LbZPzFw

LTC:
LUNtCbe9C3WS5cBntqWanvpWtep9JuQmkR

Further Reading

A fantastic introduction to Bitcoin, particularly the opening couple of minutes

Get a Bitcoin wallet

Answers to all the common questions about Bitcoin:
Source

Is Bitcoin a Ponzi / pyramid scheme?

Where do I get free Bitcoins?
Note: I’ve tried a few of these, and they all require hours and hours of work to get a tiny output. You’d be better off working at McDonalds and just buying Bitcoins. Back in the day, while Bitcoin was still almost worthless, some of these sites gave out Bitcoins in large quantities, but those days are long gone. Don’t waste your time.

What if someone bought all the Bitcoins?

Won’t loss of wallets and the finite number of Bitcoins cause ridiculous deflation?

What if someone starts another Bitcoin?
Note: This is precisely what Altcoins are, and it hasn’t stopped Bitcoin’s rapid growth in the slightest.

The largest Bitcoin forum

The best source of Bitcoin news

Buy stuff with Bitcoin

A couple of incredible articles in favour of Bitcoin
http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=the_c...evolution;
http://astrohacker.com/ahc/bitcoin-is-th...ngularity/

Crazy Bitcoin millionaire gets excited about Bitcoin
Search “Keiser Report: Bitcoin Vs Banksters (E426)” on Youtube.

Buy a bit of Bitcoin quickly from Paypal just to get started

To find exchanges just Google the following names:
BTC-E
MtGox
BTCChina
BitStamp

There's a few others for different countries as well, so you can look into that specifically if you're not from China / US / UK.

May we all become rich on the Bitcoin![Image: banana.gif]

EDIT: forgot to attach signature, and appears I can't Edit to add it in? Gah.

Improve yourself, improve the world.
Datasheets: Chinese Dating. Bitcoin and trading on BTC-E.
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#52

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

Quote: (11-11-2013 12:49 AM)LowerCaseG Wrote:  

Quote: (11-07-2013 07:11 PM)LowerCaseG Wrote:  

When the other thread was going down, I went through Wikipedia, and read up on Bitcoins. I am a relatively smart guy though not computer wise. I still have no idea:
-What a Bitcoin is.
-How you make one.
-What they are used for. I mean practically, not as a currency. If it has no practical use, and is simply a currency, how is it any different than paper money?

Still have no idea what a bitcoin is in real life.

http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfiv..._bitcoins/
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#53

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

[/quote]

My opinion wouldn't be too popular here but here are some basics. Firstly, you have to accept the fact that the overwhelming interest in Bitcoin comes from the get-rich quick angle. This is perfectly natural and has legitimately worked out for some people (including me on a small scale). I've met a guy who cashed out and bought a house as well as a guy who had 20k coins when I last spoke to him. The great news is that there will be TONS more opportunities to make big money going ahead. We won't have reached the end of "get rich quick" period until investor activity in Bitcoin is the same as it was for the 90's dot coms. Not only that, but due to no regulation and no real valuation metrics, the valuation of Bitcoin will be CRAZY MORE volatile than any IPO. That being said, one of the biggest reasons for the price swings right now is due to a lack of a derivatives market. When that is created, expect the actual price demonination to settle down considerably.

The big problem though is that so many people getting into it have no idea what the fuck they are doing. They have no strategy and little to no understanding of the technical, economic, investor, or trading aspects of bitcoin. The forum posters here are no exception. The level of knowledge competence displayed in the general [Making Money]investing non-btc posts here is ridiculously bad. Technical knowledge of BTC here is also laughably bad but understandable since most forum members aren't engineers. The more of these sheep there are, it just means more slaughter (profit) for the wolves. So typical sheep would be people who bought miners or thought we were in a new paradigm when it hit 300 a few months ago or investors in the BTC Savings Trust etc. Typical wolves would be ASIC miner companies, many exchanges, many online wallet services, big money market manipulators, companies who sold bitcoin stocks etc. There are a lot of players and complex relationships...

The easiest way to get rich quick without doing much work in BTC is to start trading. Would I recommend it? No. But it is the easiest way and can net you much faster profits than anything you would get out of the regular markets. The best way is to just start getting your hands dirty and put some real money on the line. Taking a real loss will ensure you don't make the same mistake again. Its the same reason real traders don't recommend paper trading. The price of BTC is almost entirely investor psychology driven so its best to get your cues from great traders who specialize in this area. I can recommend George Soros.

There are a lot of wantrenpreneurs here on the board and Bitcoin represents fantastic "in" that hasn't yet been touched by retail. It is also the method of entry I'd recommend. You don't need to know tech to found a bitcoin business. Many of the biggest people in the space don't. For inspiration you can take a look at Charlie Shrem, 23-year old economics undergrad who started BitInstant (allows you to buy bitcoin at 7-11, walmart etc.) by basically just making a shitload of calls to payment processors and banks until he found one that would process bitcoin payments; he co-owns a bitcoin bar in NYC and is now a millionare.

Anyway there are so many more aspects to bitcoin but these are just some thoughts to chew on.
[/quote]

You basicly say: buy low, sell high, ride the wave & a bitcoin startup is good money.

Can you elaborate a bit more on the specific knowledge you claim to have?

Inquiring minds want to know.
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#54

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

Hey Parlay check this out!!!
http://robotmoola.com/bitcoin-record-china/

Quote:Quote:

“China is playing chess while the U.S. is playing checkers”

That's what I've been talking about ^^^^

The Chinese are buying apartments in Bitcoin and they're selling like hotcakes.

Don't think you've missed the boat it's still in port. Watch!
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#55

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

where to buy some litecoins , I'm too poor for bitcoins . Would'nt mind buying some litecoins and keep them stored for the future .
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#56

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

The main problem to bitcoins is getting them widely accepted as a currency. The next problem is that bitcoins are a deflationary currency since the number of bitcoins is finite. There will never be more than 21 million bitcoins created.

[Image: 740px-Total_bitcoins_over_time_graph.png]

This will greatly encourage hording, not to mention bitcoins can be lost due to forgetting/misplacing the private key, adding further deflationary pressure to the currency. Current economic theories don't have many answers to deal with a naturally shrinking currency like bitcoin.

I think I will buy one bitcoin and treat it like buying a lottery ticket. On the extremely off chance that bitcoin becomes a widely used currency, I can retire on my one bitcoin investment. Conversely, on the more likely outcome that bitcoin is never widely used as a currency, then I will only be out the cost of one bitcoin.
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#57

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

Quote: (11-11-2013 02:33 PM)NeVerGymLess Wrote:  

where to buy some litecoins , I'm too poor for bitcoins . Would'nt mind buying some litecoins and keep them stored for the future .

You do know you can buy a fraction of a bitcoin, right?
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#58

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

Here is a really good explanation of how a transaction in bitcoins works:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/img/06Bitcoin-1...974774.jpg
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#59

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

http://www.tidbit.co.in/

----------------------
The words on the website say it all:

Monetize without ads

Let your visitors help you mine Bitcoins

----------------------
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#60

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

This is pretty crazy, guy buys $27 worth of bitcoin, now it is worth about $800,000.


http://www.theguardian.com/technology/20...?CMP=fb_gu
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#61

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

For guys who think they missed out on bitcoin: you didn't. They'll continue to appreciate. Listen to guys like El_Mechanico, he invested and made $$.

But, of all altcoins, I've looked into, there's two that seem promising:
- Litecoin *
- Ripple **

* You can buy/change litecoin at btc-e.com
** You can buy/change ripple at Kraken.com

Good article on Ripple in Bitcoin Magazine here:
http://bitcoinmagazine.com/3506/introducing-ripple/

PS Any guys out there who want to teach that editor of Bitcoin Magazine some player skills. He seems like the kind of highly intelligent, socially awkward guy who could profit from some game techniques?

See him here at PorcFest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMhEIzAmYGk

Good talk btw.

Also, watch/listen to any interview/talk given by Roger Ver, Erik Voorhees or Andreas Antonopoulos.
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#62

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

Hey Parlay, Ali-B bitcoin is 410$ on Mt Gox! You would have made money already.






We should be doing this ^^^
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#63

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

Quote: (11-13-2013 09:07 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Hey Parlay, Ali-B bitcoin is 410$ on Mt Gox! You would have made money already.






We should be doing this ^^^

Yeah it was $260 a week ago. I'm moving soon. I can't tie up my free cash right now. I'm watching though.
I just got the Coinbase app for iPhone for buying and selling Bitcoins.

Team Nachos
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#64

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

You're an engineer? Two guys next to my job are both millionaires. What are you doing with your money?
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#65

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

Quote: (11-13-2013 10:24 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  

You're an engineer? Two guys next to my job are both millionaires. What are you doing with your money?

Rent and child support. Neither is cheap where I live.

I bought a new car recently too. Dropped $20k cash on it.

Team Nachos
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#66

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

Quote: (11-13-2013 10:33 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  

Quote: (11-13-2013 10:24 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  

You're an engineer? Two guys next to my job are both millionaires. What are you doing with your money?

Rent and child support. Neither is cheap where I live.

I bought a new car recently too. Dropped $20k cash on it.
What if you spent that 20k on bitcoins instead of that car that day how much would you have now?

Edit: Parlay I forgot to tell you ALI declined to buy in when I told him because a now banned member told him it wasn't a good idea.
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#67

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

Quote: (11-13-2013 11:22 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Quote: (11-13-2013 10:33 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  

Quote: (11-13-2013 10:24 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  

You're an engineer? Two guys next to my job are both millionaires. What are you doing with your money?

Rent and child support. Neither is cheap where I live.

I bought a new car recently too. Dropped $20k cash on it.
What if you spent that 20k on bitcoins instead of that car that day how much would you have now?

I hear what you're saying but it's a risky investment. I can buy a few Bitcoins without it breaking the bank. In fact I probably will.

But like I said I'm moving soon. I need like $2k for a deposit plus moving costs. I'm moving to be closer to my kid so I can get him for 1 or 2 overnights during the week. Right now I'm 90 minutes away. My commuting costs will go up a little too after the move. I have to manage my cashflow and still try to put something in the bank when I can. NJ ain't like Florida. The cost of living here is ridiculous. You gotta juggle sometimes.

Team Nachos
Reply
#68

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

Quote: (11-13-2013 11:31 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  

Quote: (11-13-2013 11:22 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Quote: (11-13-2013 10:33 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  

Quote: (11-13-2013 10:24 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  

You're an engineer? Two guys next to my job are both millionaires. What are you doing with your money?

Rent and child support. Neither is cheap where I live.

I bought a new car recently too. Dropped $20k cash on it.
What if you spent that 20k on bitcoins instead of that car that day how much would you have now?

I hear what you're saying but it's a risky investment. I can buy a few Bitcoins without it breaking the bank. In fact I probably will.

But like I said I'm moving soon. I need like $2k for a deposit plus moving costs. I'm moving to be closer to my kid so I can get him for 1 or 2 overnights during the week. Right now I'm 90 minutes away. My commuting costs will go up a little too after the move. I have to manage my cashflow and still try to put something in the bank when I can. NJ ain't like Florida. The cost of living here is ridiculous. You gotta juggle sometimes.

Maybe bitcoin is the best thing since sliced bread?; however, each of us has to decide the extent to which we can afford any investment and with any investment there can be a lot of i told you so, after the fact.

Also, we know that we do NOT make investments soley based on past performance in an expectation that such past performance trends are going to continue. Instead, we have to look at how much we are willing and are able to lose based on our own life circumstances and comfort in taking the risk and are we sufficiently diversified in our investments in order to be able to lose whatever it is that we are investing.

Spending 20K on a car may be a luxury for some people or it may be a necessity. Recently, I also chose to spend 20k to pay off a car note - b/c I did NOT want that note hanging over my head. Surely, I could have used that 20k to invest, but I have to look at my own whole package.

Guys will come to differing judgements based on their own assessments of how extended they want to be in various regards.

Also, some guys will chose to put all their eggs in a particular investment package - which likely many of us can begin to feel that we are NOT sufficiently diversified.

For less than a week, I have been thinking about bitcoins, and for me, that is NOT enough time to decide to get involved in this particular investment. Even a year later, sometimes, a guy may NOT be comfortable enough with a particular investment vehicle, even though the price may have gone up 10 times in the interim.. but the fact that it went up 10x does NOT necessarily mean that the guy should rush to make his decision.. .he has to reassess that it may have been better to buy a year ago, but maybe at this time the circumstances are different. The fact that the investment possibility went up 10x in the past year, may signal that it is time to sell some of that asset rather than to buy it.

I am looking at the data regarding bitcoins, and surely, it may be the case that this investment vehicle is going to continue to go up to a million dollars per coin, and it is also possible that some kind of crackdown or corruption will occur in order to cause the whole system to fall apart. Several guys have already suggested that there is a learning curve with these coins, and even, you, El Mech mentioned at one point that you do NOT know what you are doing, but you are making money.

In sum, at this point, I'm NOT jumping in based on recent press about the recent trends in the market.... Maybe i will be kicking myself in a week or two or a year later, but maybe NOT.
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#69

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

I may not know what I'm doing but..

In the last two days about 10 people have asked me about this stuff here in Redneck Florida so it has media attention mainstream.

Hype creates value so everytime there's hype it goes up when there's bad press (silk road and GOX problems with US gov) it goes down. What else is there really to know?
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#70

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

Quote: (11-13-2013 12:29 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

I may not know what I'm doing but..

In the last two days about 10 people have asked me about this stuff here in Redneck Florida so it has media attention mainstream.

Hype creates value so everytime there's hype it goes up when there's bad press (silk road and GOX problems with US gov) it goes down. What else is there really to know?

No denying the recent hype.

Actually, I think that once a guy is "in" an investment, there is a little bit of a different story as compared to deciding whether to get into an investment.

I mentioned your statement about NOT knowing what you are doing as an example of the complicated nature of any investment, and likely NONE of us really knows what we are doing. Instead, we are merely acting on the best knowledge that we have at our disposal. No way am I trying to diss you for saying that you do NOT know what you are doing, b/c it is good to hear the reality concerning from where a guy is coming.

You are also correct that when there is hype, that can cause investments to skyrocket UNTIL such point that it NO LONGER skyrockets.

As we know, that's called volatility, and surely some guys can be good at riding volatility and even getting into volatility. And, sometimes, if a person is going to get into volatilty, then he better have some time and psychological capital at his disposal to invest in such rollercoaster ride.

On the other hand, buying one or two coins, may NOT be as big of a deal, yet NOT everyone can even afford to do that (whether it is money, time or psychology). For example, I know that in my life, when I have a lot of things going on, i may be looking to disinvest in a variety of the things rather than adding more things - even if those more things that i could add may be profitable.

El Mech: Are you gonna remember us little guys when you become a mega millionaire, or will you just say, too bad, I got mine, I tried to enlighten you way back when but too bad that you did NOT invest. [Image: smile.gif] [Image: smile.gif] [Image: smile.gif]
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#71

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

I heard about bitcoin a few years ago.

I mentioned it to my brother at the time but didn't buy any. But I thought it was an idea which would become very famous over time (a bit like when I first heard about wikileaks). But an idea becoming famous - and an idea making alot of money seemed like two different things in my head.

Anyway - nothing happened with the currency for the next 18 months - before it suddenly went on a crazy run of bubble like proportions.

So - I wish I had taken the plunge and made some money.

Now - the reason I mention this - is because my plan has always being to have 1000 pounds (or maybe 5000 pounds - or more?) which I would treat as 'dead money'. Something that I would only use for wild punts. I like the idea of setting up an account and then forgetting about the money.

I would then use the cash for wild punts like this. Or - if the worse came to the worse - just bet it all on red.

You just need a system in place that allows you to put aside some money for you to gamble with in ventures like this one.

If I had a system like that in place I would have bought alot of bitcoins back when they were very cheap. And could possibly be sitting on millions today. Who knows?

I am not so bothered about the 'what if?' scenario. More that I wish I had gotten round to putting aside some 'play money' for gambling in speculative ventures such as this.

I think it is something that alot of people should consider.

Put some money to one side - and forget about it.

And then one day - when something pops up that you are not sure about - you can take a flutter on your hunch. Without overly worrying about losing the money - since in your mind you already consider it to be dead money.

Cardguy

PS In the scenario above - I would like to have 10 thousand pounds put to one side. But 5 thousand might be more realistic. Whilst - anything under 1 thousand pounds isn't really worthwhile. But ideally - I would have ten grand to play around with.
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#72

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

And if nothing ever took my fancy. After a few years I would take the money and just stick it on red at a roulette table in a casino. In your mind you really have to imagine your secret stash as been like monopoly money.
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#73

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

Quote: (11-13-2013 01:04 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

I heard about bitcoin a few years ago.

I mentioned it to my brother at the time but didn't buy any. But I thought it was an idea which would become very famous over time (a bit like when I first heard about wikileaks). But an idea becoming famous - and an idea making alot of money seemed like two different things in my head.

Anyway - nothing happened with the currency for the next 18 months - before it suddenly went on a crazy run of bubble like proportions.

So - I wish I had taken the plunge and made some money.

Now - the reason I mention this - is because my plan has always being to have 1000 pounds (or maybe 5000 pounds - or more?) which I would treat as 'dead money'. Something that I would only use for wild punts. I like the idea of setting up an account and then forgetting about the money.

I would then use the cash for wild punts like this. Or - if the worse came to the worse - just bet it all on red.

You just need a system in place that allows you to put aside some money for you to gamble with in ventures like this one.

If I had a system like that in place I would have bought alot of bitcoins back when they were very cheap. And could possibly be sitting on millions today. Who knows?

I am not so bothered about the 'what if?' scenario. More that I wish I had gotten round to putting aside some 'play money' for gambling in speculative ventures such as this.

I think it is something that alot of people should consider.

Put some money to one side - and forget about it.

And then one day - when something pops up that you are not sure about - you can take a flutter on your hunch. Without overly worrying about losing the money - since in your mind you already consider it to be dead money.

Cardguy

PS In the scenario above - I would like to have 10 thousand pounds put to one side. But 5 thousand might be more realistic. Whilst - anything under 1 thousand pounds isn't really worthwhile. But ideally - I would have ten grand to play around with.

Cardguy:

You said it pretty well, and I am also more inclined towards making a longer term investment rather than attempting to time the market, the investment or anything or to try to figure out the nitty girtty about whether something is good or NOT or speculating about the specifics of the future. Accordingly, maybe even cashing out in the short-term profits, after it has gained.

Like you said.. like monopoly money that a guy is willing to lose, if it comes to that.
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#74

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

It is annoying because GOOGLE was a bet that many of us would have made if we had easy money lying around. And that stock has rocketed ever since. The only reason people didn't jump for it at first was that the internet bubble had just popped. And at the time it was unclear how GOOGLE would make any money (like today with Facebook).

If it were a 'sure thing' then you wouldn't get a good return. By defintion - every good business opportunity seems risky. Otherwise the returns wouldn't make it worthwhile. And in order to handle the psychology of rik - it helps to have a slush fund set to one side.

Indeed - one of the best books on the stock market I have read is 'The Zurich Axioms'. And most of the book focuses on the idea of risk. Risk and return are the same thing. You can't have one without the other. There will always be good reasons NOT to invest in something. But - those reasons will often turn you away from the very best (in hindisght) opportunities. It is a bit of a paradox.

A few years ago - Nintendo was the biggest stock market gainer for that year. And I totally bought into their new strategy (at the time) of widening the game playing population to new people (through the Wii and the handheld 'brain improving' DS consules). But again - I just didn't have any 'fuck it' money to make a play.

Also - Warren Buffett advises against diversification. Indeed - he thinks you should only invest in about 20 stocks in your entire life. And I have read others as well who recommend going all in if you want to make some serious money. It won't work for everyone - but putting all your eggs in the same basket is the best strategy when dealing with 'play money'.
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#75

Bitcoin -- for interested beginners & critics/skeptics

Managed to jump in on the weekend when it was hovering around $280-320. Still disappointed I missed jumping on at $200.

I have 5% in LTC, 2.5% in Peercoin and the rest in BTC.

BTC is getting a lot of mainstream attention and adoption rates are on the upswing, a lot of positive news.
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