[samsamsam]

I am not talking about petty burglary or assault or murder.

I watch the show American Greed sometimes and even then I guess it is just the lure of a quick wealth? Some do it out of desperation.

But there are some super smart guys that know it is a crime and have no problem going for big scores (i.e Ocean's 11 though it is a movie).

Just wondering about the psychology. My quick search on the internet didn't turn out anything except about people who do small time crime to survive.

Is it just the rush?

If any of you are actively involved in big scores, I advise starting the sentence with "A friend of mine..." lol

I am just really curious about the psychology.

Thanks.

[Sourcecode]

do research on sociopaths. it will explain a lot.

[Cattle Rustler]

They can't find a good job

They feel conned or bitter and need something to feel powerful. Like walter white wishing his drug empire to be bigger than Gray Matter Technologies' market cap. He felt bitter as he was pushed out of the company.

They're bored, many kidnappers in Mexico are not poor but rather upper class.

[cardguy]

Steve Jobs once said that he would definitely have become a criminal, if it hadn't been for an inspirational teacher he had.

[Grit]

If you consider government and its associated laws, rules, and regulations to be ordained by the most powerful, then why not challenge the most powerful.

On the other hand, if government is a petty bureaucracy of incompetents, why would you respect the authority of such a system?

Notice that both my points of view of the government are not from a good or bad perspective, simply an observation of who has power.

[WesternCancer]

The skin of some men crawls when they live within the constraints of society. Eventually they realize they have enough power and ability to exact their will upon the world. Some guys pull a Walter White and some guys adventure and fuck beautiful women.

[Basil Ransom]

Interesting link: http://ww2.odu.edu/ao/instadv/quest/Genius.html

[Que enspastic]

i recall reading about two highly intelligent professional American men famous for attempting to commit "the perfect murder". They perceived it as one of life's greatest intellectual and psychologically challenging exercises, irrespective of morality. Probably sociopathic.

[cardguy]

Yeah - that is the plot to ROPE by Alfred Hitchcock (it is based on a true story).

One of the best films I have ever seen (often I decide it is my all-time favourite).

And the film is set in one room - and has no cuts (well that is what Hitchock was aiming for with the technology available to him at the time).

[Screwston]

Its a rush commiting a crime. Make a cop run after you and see if youre scared to approach girls when you grt away.

[mental]

It's probably like this: you figure out it's more satisfying and rewarding to do something a little risky but rewarding than being a blue-collar drone like every other Joe, and the more success you have, the less you care about if it's right or wrong - you rationalize that everyone would do the same if they saw the chance, and your sexual and professional options back up your claim.

[Bad Hussar]

Lately I've been reading up on creativity. One of the more interesting pieces was by a guy who's principle theory is:

Creativity = High IQ + High Psychoticism

He describes cultures which are smart, but uncreative (e.g. China today) and cultures that are smart and creative (Europe until mid-1800's in his opinion) and others that are sort of coasting (Europe today).

The theory is that pretty much by definition exceptional people will not fit into society (this does not mean that all people who don't fit in are exceptional...). If they had the psychology to fit in that very way of thinking would make them unexceptional.

So, as Grit alludes to above it is very possible. No, actually pretty much inevitable, that exceptional people will be disaffected. It's what they are. So here you have a very smart person with typical avenues of achievement and esteem closed off to him (almost always male, but that's a different discussion...). What is he supposed to do? Become a CEO. Maybe, but only the Steve Jobs type. The type who CREATES companies. Not the MBA type who manages the companies created by.... creative people.

My own modest addition to the discussion is to contrast the people who create ideas/institutions/companies etc. and the people who manage them. The creators will pretty much inevitably be severely disaffected (High IQ+ High Psychoticism) and "at war" with the management class, who is 99% of people.

So, this war, if it's played out in corporate boardrooms with lawyers present to keep everything (just) on the right side of the law, is generally how business runs. When it stops running this way because the Management Class have taken over completely the company is on the way down. But for lot's of reasons the really creative people may be excluded from practicing their creativity legally. For example consider a politically incorrect person who has a desire (and ability) to be a great academic researcher. The possibility of him achieving this in any formal structure is close to zero, since his views annoy the management structure of every single academic institution in all Christendom. They won't let him in, no matter what he has to offer. In fact they won't let him in specifically because what he offers threatens them. As will any truly creative undertaking. By it's nature it disrupts.

What are these able people structurally excluded from society supposed to do? IMO, at least some of the super smart guys who are criminals are such people. Now, I'm not saying it describes all, or even most, of them. But It is a factor. Every force needs an outlet. If formal outlets are closed, the force will find other ones. Such as criminal enterprises.

[Kickb]

Maybe it has something to do with the large profit margins and the thrill.

[Therapsid]

(10-21-2013 02:30 PM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  

Lately I've been reading up on creativity. One of the more interesting pieces was by a guy who's principle theory is:

Creativity = High IQ + High Psychoticism

He describes cultures which are smart, but uncreative (e.g. China today) and cultures that are smart and creative (Europe until mid-1800's in his opinion) and others that are sort of coasting (Europe today).

The theory is that pretty much by definition exceptional people will not fit into society (this does not mean that all people who don't fit in are exceptional...). If they had the psychology to fit in that very way of thinking would make them unexceptional.

Whose theory is this? It sounds like an interesting book.

[Bad Hussar]

(10-21-2013 02:36 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  

(10-21-2013 02:30 PM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  

Lately I've been reading up on creativity. One of the more interesting pieces was by a guy who's principle theory is:

Creativity = High IQ + High Psychoticism

He describes cultures which are smart, but uncreative (e.g. China today) and cultures that are smart and creative (Europe until mid-1800's in his opinion) and others that are sort of coasting (Europe today).

The theory is that pretty much by definition exceptional people will not fit into society (this does not mean that all people who don't fit in are exceptional...). If they had the psychology to fit in that very way of thinking would make them unexceptional.

Whose theory is this? It sounds like an interesting book.

Wasn't a book. Was a blog. Am looking for it in my history now.....

OK, here's the home page of the blog:
http://iqpersonalitygenius.blogspot.com/

Bruce Charlton is the blogger. You'll have to search specifically for "creativity" posts, but he has lot's of blog posts discussing the Creativity = High IQ + High Psychoticism formula. E.g:
http://iqpersonalitygenius.blogspot.com/...icism.html

[w00t]

fast money
the rush of doing something illegal / breaking the rules
the feeling of getting away with a crime / fucking over society

I can think of many reasons.

[AnonymousBosch]

If you're smart enough to discount religion as a form of social control by those in power, then why would you follow its notions of morality?

This is what confuses me about feminists: they've discarded Christian Morality as A Evil Patriarchial Structure to control women, so have freed themselves from things it frowns upon (casual sex; divorce; love, honour, obey; disobedience to men; having children from multiple fathers; spinsterhood; wealth accumulation; selfishness; narcissism; false idols (celebrities / television). They refuse to be 'good' / moral women, but still expect men to be 'good' / moral men. If they can refuse to be shamed by discarding stricture, so can we.

[kinjutsu]

I think it might be the fact most highly intelligent people are extremely bored.
Sometimes if you're not challenged in life you create your own "fun"
Breaking the law and and committing crimes can be a rush for a lot for people.

[Pyre]

OP's got it wrong. The absolute worst criminals already work in the government.

You want the greediest? The most corrupt? The ones who commit genocide and justify it on legal grounds? The ones who incarcerate more civilians than anywhere else in the world? The ones who steal 1/3 of your income and then piss it away on useless bridges to nowhere? All you have to do is look at our friendly politicians!

[Giovonny]

You answered your own question..

(10-21-2013 01:38 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

quick wealth

Quote:

desperation.

Quote:

the rush

Quote:

greed

Everyones mind works differently. Different people do things for different reasons.

It's almost always some combination of the above and/or the person is insane.

[AnonymousBosch]

(10-21-2013 03:47 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

It's almost always some combination of the above and/or the person is insane.

Insanity is too easy. I'd just say, because they can.

If we're going to frame psychopathy as a deviation from moral norms, then we have a psychopathic government that feels free to take advantage of the feeble-minded via lotteries, horse-racing and gambling.

Also, by that definition, all of us posting here would be considered insane, because we have little interest in monogamy and understand how game works to achieve our desired outcome.

[Duke Castile]

A guy gets pushed to the limit or rubbed the wrong way for the last time.

He looks at "legal" criminal behavior and realizes that the only difference between himself and the legal behavior is govt sanctioned privilege.

He notices that his friends with money are guys that wouldn't steal from him. He looks at his poorer friends that rationalize not paying their part in a group expense or they nickel and dime things but only when it's to their benefit and he says "this is a waste of my goddamn time".

He sees the nasty nature of people in general and concludes that very few people in general are worth jack shit.

He says, "it's time I get mine".

[Enigma]

I'm surprised to see red pill guys assuming criminals are insane.

Some people would call men who don't have a traditional career, are unmarried and largely single into their 30s, and spend their free time traveling to third world countries "sociopaths" too.

The truth is that the elite families of the Western world built their fortunes doing things that were illegal and immoral.

Turning our attention to the micro level that is more applicable to the average person, let's examine someone who deals drugs.

Compared to the typical college graduate, they had a lower barrier to entry, worked less, is in less debt, and has a more glamorous job. They come and go as they please while getting pussy thrown at them from all directions.

Let's take a look at your traditional business owner. How many small businesses fail before every turning a profit and lose hundreds of thousands of dollars? More than 50%? If you're smart and lucky, you might be profiting 10-20% a few years down the road. But at any minute any multitude of things could come along and tear down everything you've built and send your ass to the poor house.

Now, it's common sense that profit margins are higher for the drug dealer but the risk of failure is actually lower. Not only is the percentage that fails lower (especially when you include law enforcement and the government's role in trafficking), the latter business was profitable from day one. You're obviously thinking you don't want to go to jail but only because prisons in the US condone cruel and unusual punishment in addition to substandard living conditions to protect their profit margins (makes you wonder why drugs are illegal in the first place). In reality, many people would prefer two years of free room and board over losing half a million dollars if you take being raped out of the equation.

The truth is that, depending on the substance, there's a good chance a drug dealer would get nothing more than probation on their first offense and could have their record expunged as quickly, if not before, a bankruptcy will leave your credit report.

[Giovonny]

(10-21-2013 04:05 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

(10-21-2013 03:47 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

It's almost always some combination of the above and/or the person is insane.

Insanity is too easy. I'd just say, because they can.

"Because they can"

Good call.

When I said "insane", I was thinking more about murderers. I forgot that this thread is more about white collar crime. White collar can be "crimes of opportunity". They would never rob someone with a gun but given the opportunity to "steal" from someone's investment account, they do it.

Don't underestimate the fact that someone could be talented, capable, and criminal, all at the same time. It all depends on his upbringing and the culture he grew up in.

I have met some very intelligent criminals and some guys that were just fucking crazy! And, some who are both!

[Tuthmosis]

Crime pays.