[rastignac]

Generously descriptive article on the lack of interest in sex amongst young people in Japan.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oc...CMP=twt_gu

Increasingly, I am understanding that the rise of corporatism and the decline in the nuclear family is the catalyst for various international changes in sex, dating, mating. Each country is transforming in a slightly different way, but the gist is that individualism and corporatism is trumping the intermediary of the family as the major driver of social organization.

[Sargon of Akkad]

So that's what's been going on over here this whole time.



Osaka delenda est.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

I have no idea what the fuck is going on there. No significant feminism, no fat epidemic, no state meddling into the usual domestic issues... yet a quarter of their males have gone herbivore and now it seems that even more women are doing the same. I don't think it's just due to corporate culture and difficult life - it's a mystery!

What's particularly puzzling is that we think that "attraction is not a choice", yet it's a country full of people who are saying "meh, attraction isn't worth it". I can't imagine what would cause so many young people - who don't yet have to worry about marriage, children and obligations to be affected by depression - to completely lose their gina tingles and the natural male drive for banging hot women.

In Denmark, you don't bang women. In Japan, women don't bang YOU!

[lskdfjldsf]

Nature always comes up with interesting ways to balance out the population.

[Therapsid]

It could be their diet.

Japanese people consume a ton of soy.

From one study:

"Asian populations consume large quantities of soy food that contained isoflavones such as genistein and daidzein (6). Mean serum or plasma concentrations of isoflavones in Japanese men are 10 to 100 times higher than those in men from the United Kingdom (7) and Finland (8). Moreover, Morton et al. (9) reported a higher concentration of daidzein in the prostatic fluid of Asian men than in Western men. Genistein and daidzein exhibit anticarcinogenic properties and estrogenic activity in vitro and have shown a protective effect against prostate cancer development in some animal studies (6)."

From Dietary Isoflavones May Protect against Prostate Cancer in Japanese Men

http://nutrition.highwire.org/content/137/8/1974.full

It could be that the Japanese diet confers protection against prostate and other forms of cancer, but that it comes with a price - it may cause a feminization of men and lower libido.

The problem is that the most recent and comprehensive research on isoflavones at the doses Asian people consume them does not show that they have any feminizing effect in terms of testosterone or sex drive at all. I wonder if eventually research will confirm there is some impact, but we'll see.

Also, even if this is a factor, would it explain the trend of Japanese young people withdrawing from sex and marriage? Are they eating more soy than their parents did at their age?

[Quintus Curtius]

There is definitely some sort of listlessness, some sort of malaise, that has overtaken Japanese society in the past 30 years. I think it is a product of several factors:
1. The stifling control and restrictions placed on people as a result of societal rules and etiquette.
2. A deeply pervasive corruption in public and government life where the big companies are in cahoots with the government, and you can't get ahead unless you play ball. The small business owner faces real hurdles.
3. A loss of fighting spirit and martial virtue made possible by decades of pathetic dependence on American military power to protect Japan. Too much peace rots away the soul of a people.
4. The increasingly difficult financial costs to raise a family and get along in Japanese society.
5. A sense of comfort and ease promoted by a social structure that seeks to coddle everyone from the cradle to the grave.
6. Too much affluence, too much stability, and too much material wealth.

There are other factors here, and they have been very well described by one of the most articulate observers of modern Japan, Alex Kerr. His two books "Dogs and Demons" and "Lost Japan" are very perceptive and should be required reading for anyone trying to diagnose Japan's malaise. I recommend them.

All this is very sad for those of us who love Japan, appreciate the role it has played in our lives, and care about its people. But I do feel cautiously optimistic about the future. No one should ever count the Japanese out. They have a resilience to them, and have shown a willingness to bite the bullet and do what's necessary to fix their problems. But they really, really need to wean themselves away from the US. That's the crux of the problem.

[Cattle Rustler]

I'll mention a few things that I think have contributed:

Depressed economy, not the best time to have a relationship
Part time economy, the same thing as above
1/7th of Japan lives in poverty, NYT reported on it and how many people are now scraping by working at KFC and don't want to have kids

As QC said: not having to worry about defense leaves society more beta and omega than pre-wwII

[kosko]

(10-20-2013 12:52 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  

It could be their diet.

Japanese people consume a ton of soy.

From one study:

"Asian populations consume large quantities of soy food that contained isoflavones such as genistein and daidzein (6). Mean serum or plasma concentrations of isoflavones in Japanese men are 10 to 100 times higher than those in men from the United Kingdom (7) and Finland (8). Moreover, Morton et al. (9) reported a higher concentration of daidzein in the prostatic fluid of Asian men than in Western men. Genistein and daidzein exhibit anticarcinogenic properties and estrogenic activity in vitro and have shown a protective effect against prostate cancer development in some animal studies (6)."

From Dietary Isoflavones May Protect against Prostate Cancer in Japanese Men

http://nutrition.highwire.org/content/137/8/1974.full

It could be that the Japanese diet confers protection against prostate and other forms of cancer, but that it comes with a price - it may cause a feminization of men and lower libido.

The problem is that the most recent and comprehensive research on isoflavones at the doses Asian people consume them does not show that they have any feminizing effect in terms of testosterone or sex drive at all. I wonder if eventually research will confirm there is some impact, but we'll see.

Also, even if this is a factor, would it explain the trend of Japanese young people withdrawing from sex and marriage? Are they eating more soy than their parents did at their age?

Asian populations eat a lot of FERMENTED soy which is the difference. Tofu and other non fermented soy shit was never a staple of their diets. In China they used soy as a bumper crop and it had little nutritional value unless it was done a certain way. Natural populations keep thier natural (classic) diets in check. The Japanese men were alpha before the war and for the thousands of years they were fuking people up in Asia. Tofu didn't cause generations of men to check out.. It's something more than that.

[Tex Pro]

Japan's population is going to fall to less than half of what it currently is within the next hundred years due to low TFR's:

[kbell]

Perhaps they blame the samurai code and manlieness that used to be Japanese tradition as the reason they were nuked.

[Cattle Rustler]

(10-20-2013 01:56 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

Japan's population is going to fall to less than half of what it currently is within the next hundred years due to low TFR's:

I wonder what that will do to real estate prices. Japan might need to take in hordes of refugees from Darfur to off set it lol.

[Tex Pro]

(10-20-2013 02:16 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

(10-20-2013 01:56 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

Japan's population is going to fall to less than half of what it currently is within the next hundred years due to low TFR's:

I wonder what that will do to real estate prices. Japan might need to take in hordes of refugees from Darfur to off set it lol.

The Japanese are very anti-immigrant, so I don't expect them to take in too many immigrants.

My guess is they will transition to a "robot economy" (they are already starting to now).

[Cattle Rustler]

(10-20-2013 02:21 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

(10-20-2013 02:16 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

(10-20-2013 01:56 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

Japan's population is going to fall to less than half of what it currently is within the next hundred years due to low TFR's:

I wonder what that will do to real estate prices. Japan might need to take in hordes of refugees from Darfur to off set it lol.

The Japanese are very anti-immigrant, so I don't expect them to take in too many immigrants.

My guess is they will transition to a "robot economy" (they are already starting to now).

Lol, it was a joke, considering how xenophobic they are. They're starting to import filipinos to help in hospitals and manufacturing but native japanese are not too friendly about it.....and as you said, they would rather want a robot than a pinay.

[Kingsley Davis]

(10-20-2013 02:16 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

(10-20-2013 01:56 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

Japan's population is going to fall to less than half of what it currently is within the next hundred years due to low TFR's:

I wonder what that will do to real estate prices. Japan might need to take in hordes of refugees from Darfur to off set it lol.

The real estate market in the Fukushima region is off the "charts".

[Sargon of Akkad]

Reminds me of a video I posted here last year...

Ceterum censeo Osakam esse delendam!

[MHaes]

Getting nuked wrecks your morale, I guess.

[The Lizard of Oz]

It's crazy considering that the introduction of a somewhat higher calorie diet and western dentistry has made young Japanese pussy unforgivably and dangerously luscious. I mean they have very serious tits and asses now and better dentition, and on top of the amazing skin and facial features they always had, they are luscious to the point where it makes you want to vomit when you see it. But yeah, young Japanese dudes have no interest in fucking this heavenly pussy. It's one of the strangest things in the world.

What they need is a war. I think the extended peace is making the men there feel like what's the point.

I wouldn't count Japan out though, they're an amazing people. They may have a big comeback in them. These demographic trends can be reversed.

[Laner]

(10-20-2013 01:10 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

There is definitely some sort of listlessness, some sort of malaise, that has overtaken Japanese society in the past 30 years. I think it is a product of several factors:
1. The stifling control and restrictions placed on people as a result of societal rules and etiquette.
2. A deeply pervasive corruption in public and government life where the big companies are in cahoots with the government, and you can't get ahead unless you play ball. The small business owner faces real hurdles.
3. A loss of fighting spirit and martial virtue made possible by decades of pathetic dependence on American military power to protect Japan. Too much peace rots away the soul of a people.
4. The increasingly difficult financial costs to raise a family and get along in Japanese society.
5. A sense of comfort and ease promoted by a social structure that seeks to coddle everyone from the cradle to the grave.
6. Too much affluence, too much stability, and too much material wealth.

There are other factors here, and they have been very well described by one of the most articulate observers of modern Japan, Alex Kerr. His two books "Dogs and Demons" and "Lost Japan" are very perceptive and should be required reading for anyone trying to diagnose Japan's malaise. I recommend them.

All this is very sad for those of us who love Japan, appreciate the role it has played in our lives, and care about its people. But I do feel cautiously optimistic about the future. No one should ever count the Japanese out. They have a resilience to them, and have shown a willingness to bite the bullet and do what's necessary to fix their problems. But they really, really need to wean themselves away from the US. That's the crux of the problem.

Good observations.

Quote:

3. A loss of fighting spirit and martial virtue made possible by decades of pathetic dependence on American military power to protect Japan. Too much peace rots away the soul of a people.

This makes a lot of sense when I think back to Japan in 1999 (first time I went there) and how people treated me. Especially the women, but a lot of the men were also more likely to be interested in hanging out.

When I spent a lot of time there between 2004-2011 there was a significant change in the way I was treated. Women payed less attention, and not because of how we would normally think the reason to be. The mentality had changed, and not just toward foreigners.

The last time I was there (two weeks after the Fukushima earthquake in 2011) there was a much more positive reaction. People were openly thanking me for being there. Japan, in a sense, had got their war. They had something of purpose and a way to rally and protect themselves. They are a very generous culture and I will never forget the first images of the devastation and the sacrifice that so many made at that time.

Quote:

But I do feel cautiously optimistic about the future. No one should ever count the Japanese out. They have a resilience to them, and have shown a willingness to bite the bullet and do what's necessary to fix their problems. But they really, really need to wean themselves away from the US. That's the crux of the problem.

I feel the same way. In fact being there and observing from outside is like night and day. Sure the real estate has been flat for 15 or so years, but the economy, really has not been that bad. It could have been much worse, and if I believe all they hype from the west it might get worse still. But the friends and family I have there are all doing very well, have many options career wise and sexually, and are not negative on the place at all. In fact the friends who work at Riken are downright stoked and are purely optimistic on the research going on there.

There is no easy answer. The situation is strange and the effects of it on the people have created some very interesting results. The 80/20 rule is very applicable here, but unlike in America, many of the 80% drop out instead of try to climb out. My only experience is a cousin of a relative who completely buckled while in university and is now what is called a Hikikomori. She is about 35, and would be very good looking if not for her total lack of desire to be part of the social world. She looks defeated, and will be a housemaid to her parents until they pass on. Strange, but this is common in Japan.

[Vicious]

Therapsid, the Japanese diet has been largely unchanged for the last 400 years. Soy can't explain this fairly recent development in birthrates.

[JimNortonFan]

Their porn is so good they're fapping instead of sarging and no real life activity is occurring.

[kbell]

So adding tentacle porn and other weirdness will lower the birth rate in a country?

[MHaes]

Only when you blur out all the good parts.

[Que enspastic]

great doco about "sex in japan" by poster above.

[Eirykr]

I suspect it might might have something to do with their population density and super-space efficiency and this:

http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/42/wiles.php

"How do you design a utopia? In 1972, John B. Calhoun detailed the specifications of his Mortality-Inhibiting Environment for Mice: a practical utopia built in the laboratory. Every aspect of Universe 25—as this particular model was called—was pitched to cater for the well-being of its rodent residents and increase their lifespan. The Universe took the form of a tank, 101 inches square, enclosed by walls 54 inches high. The first 37 inches of wall was structured so the mice could climb up, but they were prevented from escaping by 17 inches of bare wall above. Each wall had sixteen vertical mesh tunnels—call them stairwells—soldered to it. Four horizontal corridors opened off each stairwell, each leading to four nesting boxes. That means 256 boxes in total, each capable of housing fifteen mice. There was abundant clean food, water, and nesting material. The Universe was cleaned every four to eight weeks. There were no predators, the temperature was kept at a steady 68°F, and the mice were a disease-free elite selected from the National Institutes of Health’s breeding colony. Heaven.

Four breeding pairs of mice were moved in on day one. After 104 days of upheaval as they familiarized themselves with their new world, they started to reproduce. In their fully catered paradise, the population increased exponentially, doubling every fifty-five days. Those were the good times, as the mice feasted on the fruited plain. To its members, the mouse civilization of Universe 25 must have seemed prosperous indeed. But its downfall was already certain—not just stagnation, but total and inevitable destruction."

....

"So what exactly happened in Universe 25? Past day 315, population growth slowed. More than six hundred mice now lived in Universe 25, constantly rubbing shoulders on their way up and down the stairwells to eat, drink, and sleep. Mice found themselves born into a world that was more crowded every day, and there were far more mice than meaningful social roles. With more and more peers to defend against, males found it difficult and stressful to defend their territory, so they abandoned the activity. Normal social discourse within the mouse community broke down, and with it the ability of mice to form social bonds. The failures and dropouts congregated in large groups in the middle of the enclosure, their listless withdrawal occasionally interrupted by spasms and waves of pointless violence. The victims of these random attacks became attackers. Left on their own in nests subject to invasion, nursing females attacked their own young. Procreation slumped, infant abandonment and mortality soared. Lone females retreated to isolated nesting boxes on penthouse levels. Other males, a group Calhoun termed “the beautiful ones,” never sought sex and never fought—they just ate, slept, and groomed, wrapped in narcissistic introspection. Elsewhere, cannibalism, pansexualism, and violence became endemic. Mouse society had collapsed."

[Que enspastic]

Maybe Japan needs more liberalism and women-friendly laws. The West is too far on one side, Japan too far on the other extreme. Seriously.

Quote:

Tomita says a woman's chances of promotion in Japan stop dead as soon as she marries. "The bosses assume you will get pregnant." Once a woman does have a child, she adds, the long, inflexible hours become unmanageable. "You have to resign. You end up being a housewife with no independent income. It's not an option for women like me."

Around 70% of Japanese women leave their jobs after their first child. The World Economic Forum consistently ranks Japan as one of the world's worst nations for gender equality at work. Social attitudes don't help. Married working women are sometimes demonised as oniyome, or "devil wives".