[jariel]

(09-28-2013 01:15 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

Wrong. I am Mexican-American.

When people say Hispanic in the USA, I am pretty sure I know who they are talking about, and I am pretty sure you know who they are talking about. Even the police ask when getting descriptions of perps if he is "black, Hispanic, white, Asian, etc."

While your ascendencia may be Mexican, your understanding of the culture and its people as a whole is that of an American.

When someone says "Hispanic", I don't know what they're talking about.

David Ortiz, Sofia Vergara, and George Lopez are all "Hispanics" in this country, so just on the term alone, it's laughable to suggest that it can identify who or what someone is.

If there was a prueba de fuego on being Latino, you sir just failed it.

[Tex Pro]

(09-28-2013 01:48 AM)jariel Wrote:  

(09-28-2013 01:15 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

Wrong. I am Mexican-American.

When people say Hispanic in the USA, I am pretty sure I know who they are talking about, and I am pretty sure you know who they are talking about. Even the police ask when getting descriptions of perps if he is "black, Hispanic, white, Asian, etc."

While your ascendencia may be Mexican, your understanding of the culture and its people as a whole is that of an American.

When someone says "Hispanic", I don't know what they're talking about.

David Ortiz, Sofia Vergara, and George Lopez are all "Hispanics" in this country, so just on the term alone, it's laughable to suggest that it can identify who or what someone is.

If there was a prueba de fuego on being Latino, you sir just failed it.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I am talking about how it is used in the USA. It is used on government forms, medical forms, identification forms, etc. The police use it and the media uses it. Get real. The police & the meida use this to identify suspects in crimes. Of course it doesn't have an application outside the USA, it was made in the USA.

Again, it is used even by the police and the media to identify suspects. 99 times out of 100, people know what it means. This is especially true if you talk about its use in the Southwest. Stop being dense.

[jariel]

(09-28-2013 01:59 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Haha, ya I know man, bootleg Latinos are a riot.

(09-28-2013 01:59 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

I am talking about how it is used in the USA. It is used on government forms, medical forms, identification forms, etc. The police use it and the media uses it. Get real. The police use this to identify suspects. Of course it doesn't have an application outside the USA, it was made in the USA.

Right, they use a made up term to describe Spanish-speaking indivuduals that homogenizes the entire culture and its people.

You're not dropping any knowledge here, I did that with my first response, the reason I responded at all is because you tried to correct someone when they rightfully stated that "Hispanic" is not a race.

If the "media uses it" is the best defense you have, then debating with me on this issue is well above your pay grade.

[Tex Pro]

(09-28-2013 02:05 AM)jariel Wrote:  

(09-28-2013 01:59 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Haha, ya I know man, bootleg Latinos are a riot.

(09-28-2013 01:59 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

I am talking about how it is used in the USA. It is used on government forms, medical forms, identification forms, etc. The police use it and the media uses it. Get real. The police use this to identify suspects. Of course it doesn't have an application outside the USA, it was made in the USA.

Right, they use a made up term to describe Spanish-speaking indivuduals that homogenizes the entire culture and its people.

You're not dropping any knowledge here, I did that with my first response, the reason I responded at all is because you tried to correct someone when they rightfully stated that "Hispanic" is not a race.

If the "media uses it" is the best defense you have, then debating with me on this issue is well above your pay grade.

[Swagger]

Even though his reference to bestiality is racist, I don't find anything wrong in him not wanting to date black women. The average thin black woman in america looks like the woman in the video below. They would trade up a brother for a lighter skinned race at the drop of the hat. I personally find black women unattractive because of their manly features, entitlement attitude and this chip they carry on their shoulder "i"m black" I find annoying, nothing racist. Black guys are the same way. Every other race is completely fair game for generalizing till it comes to their own race

[Jaydublin]

Why is everyone so caught up in race... There are a couple people on this forum who end up in a race discussion in any thread that mentions race at all, usually people like this are closet racists...... Why don't we focus on the American Icon, Romeo Rose.

[Teedub]

(09-27-2013 09:31 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

^This "Hispanics aren't a race" meme isn't totally correct because when people say "Hispanic" in America, they usually mean mestizo, which is to some extent a hybrid racial group.

I wish it was that simple. The fact of the matter is, they think anyone with a Spanish name MUST be Mestizo. It's why all the right wing furore over Elysium is so weird. Some right wing commentators were complaining about a percieved anti-white bias because, apart from Damon, it was 'Latinos' as good guys and 'Whites' as evil. From my perspective, EVERY main character in that film was white. The 'evil' president was Indian, but he was a very minor role. My point is, is that whilst Damon and Jodie Foster are Northern Euro white, the other three main actors were Mexican and Brazilian (two of them)... All were white though, just Mediterranean white. In this circumstance the right wing conservative types who were complaining were acting like leftist diversity police and trying to find a problem where there wasn't one - born out of ideology but also out of ignorance about what white is. Sure, perhaps the Mexican guy has a bit of indigenous in him, but so small that it doesn't make him look like this:




And thus, not at all worthy of a different classification. Even JMM above, has probably only about 30% Indigenous, so hardly this 50/50 which is what many would have people believe all Mexicans are.

(09-28-2013 01:48 AM)jariel Wrote:  

David Ortiz, Sofia Vergara, and George Lopez are all "Hispanics" in this country, so just on the term alone, it's laughable to suggest that it can identify who or what someone is.

That's the bit that made me become so interested in this 'issue'. Before I found Roosh and stuff, I'd never had any Americans to discuss it with. I'd frequent soccer forums and boxing forums and ridiculous questions would come up like. "Is Lionel Messi white or latino?" etc.

I'll share a PM I sent to speakeasy about it. I'm sure he won't mind me using it.

speakeasy Wrote:

Teedub Wrote:

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-28484-...#pid542976

I was going to mention the ignorance many Americans have that there are white people in South America, and how they can't really believe this, as they think 'white' is like Matt Damon and not, for example, Cristiano Ronaldo etc.

The funniest is if you say, here is 'Tommaso Bienvinuti" (invented name ha) from Italy they'd be like "sure he's white, he's from Europe". However, if you said "Here is Pablo Garcia", he's from Columbia, even if they were identical looking you'd have people saying "Sure, I can totally see the Native in him". Retards.

Yes, I've seen that MANY times happen. So damn annoying.

I'm not saying anyone here is a "Retard" by the way, I was referring to the people I encounter on the forums and in comments sections of youtube etc.

Fuck it, it doesn't affect my life, but ignorance irritates me.

[deathtofatties]

[Tex Pro]

(09-28-2013 12:16 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

And thus, not at all worthy of a different classification. Even JMM above, has probably only about 30% Indigenous, so hardly this 50/50 which is what many would have people believe all Mexicans are.

Sorry, Teedub, but there is scientific evidence that mestizo is its own racial category:

Landmark Study Reveals Significant Genetic Variation Between Mexico's Population And World's Other Known Genetic Subgroups:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200...081744.htm

[Teedub]

Oh, I have no problem with that really to be honest, I was actually going off on a tangent from my original point.

Just checked that study, it doesn't mean Mexico in general, it says "... a landmark Mexican study showing significant genetic variation between Mestizos (Latin Americans of mixed European and Amerindian ancestry) and the world's other known genetic subgroups.

Not all Mexicans are mestizos, which sort of brings me back to my original point. Also, about boxing, people getting lambasted for calling Saul Alvarez white is ridiculous. He is white.

My main point was what I addressed elsewhere, and in other threads - I think it's ridiculous that say, for example, Juan Manuel Marquez, Andy Garcia, and loads of Brazilians, Cubans, Argentinians are classed as one 'race'. I'm sure you agree. I wish there was a mestizo category for mestizos in the census, as there is in Mexico, Chile, Brazil et al. Although, they (Brazil) have further classifications for specific mixed groups. For example, they would think the idea of calling Obama "black" was pretty weird.

[Tex Pro]

(09-28-2013 02:28 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

Oh, I have no problem with that really to be honest, I was actually going off on a tangent from my original point.

Just checked that study, it doesn't mean Mexico in general, it says "... a landmark Mexican study showing significant genetic variation between Mestizos (Latin Americans of mixed European and Amerindian ancestry) and the world's other known genetic subgroups.

Not all Mexicans are mestizos, which sort of brings me back to my original point. Also, about boxing, people getting lambasted for calling Saul Alvarez white is ridiculous. He is white.

Most people who look white in Mexico are actually still mestizos. The only ones who are pure white are recent European immigrants to Mexico. The mixing in Mexico was pretty unique because so many Spanish men who colonized Mexico took native American wives. My mother, for instance, looks white but she is probably around 1/8 native American.

[Tex Pro]

(09-28-2013 02:28 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

My main point was what I addressed elsewhere, and in other threads - I think it's ridiculous that say, for example, Juan Manuel Marquez, Andy Garcia, and loads of Brazilians, Cubans, Argentinians are classed as one 'race'. I'm sure you agree. I wish there was a mestizo category for mestizos in the census, as there is in Mexico, Chile, Brazil et al. Although, they (Brazil) have further classifications for specific mixed groups. For example, they would think the idea of calling Obama "black" was pretty weird.

This I can agree with. It doesn't make much sense to group so many different populations into one category. However, 63% of Hispanics in America are of Mexican decent, so the category is used nominally to represent Mexicans, at least in the Southwest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic_an...mographics

[Teedub]

(09-28-2013 02:42 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

My mother, for instance, looks white but she is probably around 1/8 native American.

This is where we come into 'debate'. In most places in the world, she'd be white, because that's what she is. Looks wise. 1/8 is so nominal it barely matters. A 'mestizo' to anyone outside of the States (I include Mexican-Americans as those within it) is someone who looks visibly indigenous. If your mother looks no different to your typical Italian for example, then she is, white.

EDIT - I'm not trying to diss your heritage btw. I'm just saying how people outside of America see the Hispanic thing.

[speakeasy]

(09-28-2013 02:42 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

(09-28-2013 02:28 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

Oh, I have no problem with that really to be honest, I was actually going off on a tangent from my original point.

Just checked that study, it doesn't mean Mexico in general, it says "... a landmark Mexican study showing significant genetic variation between Mestizos (Latin Americans of mixed European and Amerindian ancestry) and the world's other known genetic subgroups.

Not all Mexicans are mestizos, which sort of brings me back to my original point. Also, about boxing, people getting lambasted for calling Saul Alvarez white is ridiculous. He is white.

Most people who look white in Mexico are actually still mestizos. The only ones who are pure white are recent European immigrants to Mexico. The mixing in Mexico was pretty unique because so many Spanish men who colonized Mexico took native American wives. My mother, for instance, looks white but she is probably around 1/8 native American.

If you "look white" then you ARE white. I mean that's like saying someone "looks black" but they aren't really black. How could that even be? How could a guy that looks like Chris Rock not be mostly African genetics? Even if he has some white in him from slavery. The Dominican Republic is the only place I'm aware of that people who look as black as the ace of spades trying to claim they aren't really black. It's laughable.

[Tex Pro]

(09-28-2013 02:55 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

(09-28-2013 02:42 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

My mother, for instance, looks white but she is probably around 1/8 native American.

This is where we come into 'debate'. In most places in the world, she'd be white, because that's what she is. Looks wise. 1/8 is so nominal it barely matters. A 'mestizo' to anyone outside of the States (I include Mexican-Americans as those within it) is someone who looks visibly indigenous. If your mother looks no different to your typical Italian for example, then she is, white.

Mestizo just means mixed. If someone is phenotypically white, but mixed race, then that person is mestizo in my book. Hell, Mexico calls itself a mestizo nation for that reason.

(09-28-2013 03:29 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(09-28-2013 02:42 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

(09-28-2013 02:28 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

Oh, I have no problem with that really to be honest, I was actually going off on a tangent from my original point.

Just checked that study, it doesn't mean Mexico in general, it says "... a landmark Mexican study showing significant genetic variation between Mestizos (Latin Americans of mixed European and Amerindian ancestry) and the world's other known genetic subgroups.

Not all Mexicans are mestizos, which sort of brings me back to my original point. Also, about boxing, people getting lambasted for calling Saul Alvarez white is ridiculous. He is white.

Most people who look white in Mexico are actually still mestizos. The only ones who are pure white are recent European immigrants to Mexico. The mixing in Mexico was pretty unique because so many Spanish men who colonized Mexico took native American wives. My mother, for instance, looks white but she is probably around 1/8 native American.

If you "look white" then you ARE white. I mean that's like saying someone "looks black" but they aren't really black. How could that even be? How could a guy that looks like Chris Rock not be mostly African genetics? Even if he has some white in him from slavery. The Dominican Republic is the only place I'm aware of that people who look as black as the ace of spades trying to claim they aren't really black. It's laughable.

Looking "white" is your phenotype. Mestizo means mixed, so you can be a light-skinned mestizo that looks white, but still not genetically 100% white. The way white is used in the USA is generally the "one drop rule," and under that rule, anyone who is mixed is not white.

[Teedub]

(09-28-2013 03:29 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

If you "look white" then you ARE white. I mean that's like saying someone "looks black" but they aren't really black. How could that even be? How could a guy that looks like Chris Rock not be mostly African genetics? Even if he has some white in him from slavery. The Dominican Republic is the only place I'm aware of that people who look as black as the ace of spades trying to claim they aren't really black. It's laughable.

Some of it in the American 'Latino' thing is the 'cool' factor. It's 'cool' to be 'mixed' or, lets say, non-white. See our famed Jessica Alba DNA test thing for an example of that. I think, in Saul Alvarez' case, a lot of (actual) mestizos and black fans don't want to see him as white as that has always been a point of contention in boxing - they don't want 'whites' to claim him or whatever. Floyd Mayweather and Bernard Hopkins have made several claims toward the inferiority of white boxers in comparison to what they call "Black and Hispanic fighters". Of course, when you and myself say that De La Hoya is white for example, we get looked at as insane on this board, but anywhere in South America, Europe, or in fact, anywhere else on the planet - saying De La Hoya was NOT white would be met with strange looks. Even more so (of course! He's ginger and pale) with Saul Alvarez.

[Teedub]

(09-28-2013 03:38 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

Hell, Mexico calls itself a mestizo nation for that reason.

That is for solidarity and political purposes within the working class than for anything else. The leaders of Mexico and and the 'posh' people in the telenovas are white. Unashamedly so. So much so that "indio" is an insult.

[Tex Pro]

(09-28-2013 03:43 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

(09-28-2013 03:38 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

Hell, Mexico calls itself a mestizo nation for that reason.

That is for solidarity and political purposes within the working class than for anything else. The leaders of Mexico and and the 'posh' people in the telenovas are white. Unashamedly so. So much so that "indio" is an insult.

I'd be white under your definition, and I can assure you I am not considered white in the USA.

[Teedub]

If you said you were white then I doubt anyone would insist that you aren't. Unless, like I said, you look visibly Asiatic. By that, I mean of course native American.

(09-28-2013 03:45 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

I'd be white under your [anyone from any country outside the U.S and maybe Canada] definition, and I can assure you I am not considered white in the USA.

[Brackets and emphasis mine]

By your (Americas) definition loads of people in Greece, Italy and Spain aren't white either. Even France when I think of it.

[Tex Pro]

(09-28-2013 03:50 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

If you said you were white then I doubt anyone would insist that you aren't. Unless, like I said, you look visibly Asiatic. By that, I mean of course native American.

Don't look native, but I look "Hispanic", which makes sense since I am mostly Spanish, but again you are a Brit...you don't understand the WASP mentality here in the USA. People call Antonio Banderas a Mexican (he often plays one).

[speakeasy]

(09-28-2013 03:45 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

I'd be white under your definition, and I can assure you I am not considered white in the USA.

But that doesn't mean much. By law for most this country's history and maybe even still now, if you were as little as 1/16th black, you were considered "black" under the law. A person that's 1/16th black is indistinguishable from a European. Yet they are considered "black". That's how screwed up Americans are on definitions of race. So I wouldn't use American opinion as gauge for anything.

A pure Mestizo is someone that is 50% white and 50% Native American. When I think Mestizo/a, I think of this:



I would consider these Monterrey girls to be white since she looks to be almost all European ancestry with no recognizable indigenous features:




Then of course purely indigenous Mexicans from the Mayan region:

[Teedub]

^ Dude, I understand it and ridicule it regularly on here. My point is what I said earlier, that just the vast, vast ignorance of yes the WASP politicians but also the Hispanics themselves irritates me. Your answer implies that in America, Spanish people aren't white. As in, Spaniards. So, I've done a little diagram:

De La Hoya:



Xavi, a native Spaniard from Spain (football player):



Golly gosh, I sure can certainly see the 'indigenous' in that soccer player.

In all seriousness, Xavi looks more 'mestizo' than De La Hoya does, which sort of proves my point about silly idiots saying they can "see" the 'native' in Jennifer Lopez, Jessica Alba et al.

[Tex Pro]

Speakeasy & Teedub,

We are arguing in circles. In America, if you are mixed, you are not white. Period. End of story. No more discussion is needed.

Plus, it is not cool to be white in America, so I don't expect this opinion to change anytime soon. I met people in MEChA (the student group) who have green eyes and light hair, and they call themselves mestizos. If they are part mixed (almost a 100% certainty if their family lived in Mexico for a long time), then they are mestizos. Arguing with someone who is mixed race over whether or not they are white is pointless and a little condescending since they know better what they are than you do.

Good day, gentlemen.

[speakeasy]

(09-28-2013 04:11 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

Speakeasy & Teedub,

We are arguing in circles. In America, if you are mixed, you are not white. Period. End of story. No more discussion is needed.

Plus, it is not cool to be white in America, so I don't expect this opinion to change anytime soon. I met people in MEChA (the student group) who have green eyes and light hair, and they call themselves mestizos. If they are part mixed (almost a 100% certainty if their family lived in Mexico for a long time), then they are mestizos. Arguing with someone who is mixed race over whether or not they are white is pointless and a little condescending since they know better what they are than you do.

Good day, gentlemen.

But what is mixed? Just because you aren't 100% pure something doesn't mean you are "mixed". If this is the case, then we should stop referring to blacks in America as "blacks" because almost all of us have 20-25% European mixture. But nobody looks at black Americans as mulattos unless they have a white parent. If someone is 80-90% one group, they are considered that group. So if a Mexican is like 90% European and look indistinguishable from a southern European, then they are Europeans.

And as Teedub says, ANYWHERE outside the USA this is just considered common sense. Brazil has a much more realistic interpretation on race. They scratch their heads in disbelief when someone like Rashida Jones is considered "black" when she looks mostly European. Or that someone like Marco Rubio would be considered "non-white".


@Teedub. All in a good day's work my friend.

[Teedub]

Haha speakeasy, me and you keep editing our posts/pictures to find more succinct examples.

Fair enough T.P - but again, a lot of the people who get labelled as non-whites in America (Lionel Messi is often an example I use for it's ludicrousness) are 100% boring, white, European people. Despite being perhaps the more 'exotic' southern type.