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Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?
#1

Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?

Okay guys, I've been experiencing a "gaming issue" and I'm curious to get some feedback, on how you guys go forth when you reach that point in the interaction where you can't decide if a woman is worth further "investment."

I will delve into anecdotal examples so you can see where I'm coming from. I feel that my game has improved and is continuing to improve, while in the past I'd go for easy pickings (girls that are 6-7), now I am pretty much only "putting in work" to approach 7-8s, and usually 8's.

While in the past a lot of these HB 8's would kind of blow me off, or not fully engage or indulge my approach, my approaches are currently doing well and hooking well into conversation. I rarely get blown out and if I do, it's either because I chose the wrong "target", the girl is a total bitch, or my game was slightly "off."

However, now I am dealing with a new problem, which is gauging women's interest levels and whether or not my interactions with them will ultimately lead to sex. I have a firm grasp of female IOI's and when women are clearly showing interest vs. not showing interest, but recently I've been getting interest, and IOI's, but when I try to really escalate and go for the kiss, or try to bounce girls back to my place, I am getting resistance.

For example, last night I was at the bar with a big group of guy friends, it was fun hanging out with them, but make no mistake I was also out to holler at ladies. I saw this pretty sexy blonde hair blue eyed girl sitting alone at the end of this big table drinking a beer by herself. Automatically I thought, "this is the best kind of girl to approach", so I swooped in and leaned in towards her ear and hit her with a classic Roosh opener, "you look like you're having tons of fun."

My voice and delivery was smooth, and she laughed and said how her friends were being lame and basically never showed up to meet her at the bar. I was able to quickly establish a conversation and pulled up a stool and sat down next to her.

Now, one of my biggest tests is whether a girl invests in conversation and asks me personal questions, (advice mostly gleaned from Roosh), this girl was really putting in an equal amount of effort in the conversation, asking personal questions, and I even broke eye contact, looked around the room, and went silent to see if she'd try to pick up and reinitiate conversation, which she always did.

At some point she got up to use the bathroom, but said she'd be right back and asked if I was going to be hanging out in the same spot, which I said I was. When she came back from the bathroom she said she was going to get another beer, and when she did she came back to talk to me. At this point my friends all bounced and went to another bar, so I stuck around talking to her, and when we finished our beers I asked her if she'd like to join me to go to the other bar to meet up with my friends.

She accepted when I asked if she would like to bounce, so she venue changed which I took to be another good sign, because if a girl isn't feeling you, it's rare that she'll leave and bounce to another venue with you.

Any how my friends turned out to have already bounced, but I stayed at the bar with the blondie and got us some beer and sat down at a booth, where I really ampted up kino escalation. She was still engaging and didn't "reject my kino", but also didn't really welcome it either and didn't seem to reciprocate, which girls that are really into you will, or at least then will open up move in closer and show intent through body language, which she did not.

Now wrapping this anecdote up, she did ask for my number and mention hanging out, but also excused herself about 15 minutes before last call, and when I gave her a hug and leaned in for a kiss, she turned her head and I got cheek.

I fucking hate when that happens and it's been happening to me a lot lately, I get deep into the conversation zone with a chick, all signs seem to point towards success, but when I try to step up escalation they either shut down or pull away.

I got the blonde girls' number and I will hit her up this week, but I'm not over optimistic that she will come through, although it's definitely worth a shot.

Basically, after she left I stuck around the last 15 minutes and bounced to the bar my friends were at and was surprised by how many cute girls had suddenly showed up that weren't there earlier, and part of me had this feeling that I fucked up and stuck things out for too long with the wrong chick, whereas I could have gone to my "go to" spot where my boys were and probably picked up a drunk hoe and fucked that night.

Unfortunately I got there too late so I reasoned that there wasn't much time for me to operate and if I approached the hottest girls I'd come across as the lame dude who had to get shit faced drunk at the end of the night before he had the balls to approach, so I kind of held back.

There was a kind of chubby girl that was cute and had a bubbly/perky/pleasant aura to her that was smiling at me and giving me doe eyes, she wasn't very fine, maybe a 6, but I started talking to her. She was instantly into me, and because I was drunk and kind of feeling miffed by the blonde, I gave her some attention. They called last call and we were out in front of the bar and made out for a bit, she was all over me and I probably could of hit it that night, but her roommmate basically cockblocked me.

Her roommate was acting all weird and shitfaced drunk and for some reason had the girl's purse and cell phone and wouldn't give it to her, and was all like "I want you to walk back home with me". The girl I was making out with basically agreed to go back with her roommate, but said if I called her in 15 minutes and picked her up she'd come back to my spot. I was originally going to do it, but the more I thought about it, the more I was like this girl isn't that fine, it's obvious she is super into me, and I'm tired and want to go to sleep without having to try to kick this chick out and have to drive her back home.

Any how, I guess the point of this post aside from the long anecdote, is how do you guys decide whether or not to stick with an approach, or to "pull shoot" as I like to say, and cut your losses and move on to other chicks?

I am not exclusively looking for ONS or SNL, but that is always the goal when I go out, if a girl is fine I'm down to get numbers and try to set up dates, but to be honest, usually things fall through, the girl doesn't respond to my text, flakes, or flat out rejects me.

The fact that I spent two hours hanging out with the blonde and she left early and wouldn't let me kiss her, kind of annoyed me. Who knows what would have happened or what will happen, but part of me can't help but think there may have been a more DTF chick I could have macked on and actually gotten laid that night, as opposed to having to text the blonde who will most likely flake.

Is getting the make out a good litmus test? If a girl isn't down to kiss after you've spent an hour or two hanging out and flirting, is she probably not going to de down in general? When do you decide to cut your losses and move on? It's just frustrating when you get all the IOI's the indicate they are into you, only to have them pull away when you go for the kill. For the record I feel in these situations my game is pretty tight overall, and I really doubt I'm making any missteps that are fucking me up.
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#2

Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?

Did you try taking the blonde home the same night? Offer a nightcap drink? Walk he home, etc.? Not sure of the logistics of where you are but that's one thing I always try.
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#3

Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?

Quote: (09-15-2013 06:03 PM)slubu Wrote:  

Did you try taking the blonde home the same night? Offer a nightcap drink? Walk he home, etc.? Not sure of the logistics of where you are but that's one thing I always try.


To be honest I thought about suggesting it, and I usually do, but I didn't in this situation. I just got the vibe like she wouldn't go for the one night stand. She is the one who said she wanted to leave early and wasn't getting too buzzed, because she wanted to drive home. She actually lives in a nearby town that is about 15-20 minutes from where I live, and we were at the bars in a college town in between the two towns we live in.

I can't blame her for not wanting to drink too much, because the cops in her town are really cracking down on DUIs and will find any excuse to pull people over on weekend nights, and often times make up B.S. reasons to pull people over. However in retrospect, I should have maybe pushed her to drink more that way if she got too drunk then I'd have a reason for her not drive herself home and come over to my place to hang out and "sober up."

I really should have tried to push for her to come back and hang out at my spot, and I agree that is a good "test" for how down a girl is. That said, I want to reiterate that I'm down to wait and go on a date or two with a girl if she is fine enough and I deem worth the investment, which I thought she was. I know GF material is hard to find at a bar, but there are definitely some chicks who don't want to do a ONS, which I respect, even though I want to get my dick wet. That said, maybe if I was more her "type" and the attraction was stronger she would have been down to hook up that same night.
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#4

Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?

Always push to go back somewhere with a woman. Even if you don't think she's down for the bang, it's a statement of your ultimate intent.
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#5

Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?

Great write up.

What did you guys talk about for 2 hours?
Where did you lead the conversation?
What emotions did you try to stir within her?

My gut reaction is that you didn't heat her up enough.

WIA
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#6

Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?

This is why having a J pre-rolled is great. Pull her outside for a smoke, say around the 20 min mark, and offer to bounce somewhere (I usually say food).

Then I drive straight to my house.

Edit- This is for the 2nd spot. Clarification*

WIA- For most of men, our time being masters of our own fate, kings in our own castles is short. Even those of us in the game will eventually succumb to ease of servitude rather than deal with the malaise of solitude
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#7

Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?

Quote: (09-15-2013 06:13 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

To be honest I thought about suggesting it, and I usually do, but I didn't in this situation. I just got the vibe like she wouldn't go for the one night stand. She is the one who said she wanted to leave early and wasn't getting too buzzed, because she wanted to drive home. She actually lives in a nearby town that is about 15-20 minutes from where I live, and we were at the bars in a college town in between the two towns we live in.


I really should have tried to push for her to come back and hang out at my spot, and I agree that is a good "test" for how down a girl is. That said, I want to reiterate that I'm down to wait and go on a date or two with a girl if she is fine enough and I deem worth the investment, which I thought she was. I know GF material is hard to find at a bar, but there are definitely some chicks who don't want to do a ONS, which I respect, even though I want to get my dick wet. That said, maybe if I was more her "type" and the attraction was stronger she would have been down to hook up that same night.

Sounds like you answered your own question. Shoulda tried to close her more aggressively toward the end, even before she hinted at leaving a little early (you'd know by looking at the clock). No pansy one-off kiss attempt. Multiple kiss attempts, nibbles or whatever.

Like how you pratically closed the six? Same deal but because the 8 is an 8, you were more timid around her, but treat her the same as you did the 6.
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#8

Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?

^^^If anything, you need more aggression around an 8. But its kind of a subdued aggression, not straight caveman "I throw you over shoulder and bring you back to cave" vibe.

WIA- For most of men, our time being masters of our own fate, kings in our own castles is short. Even those of us in the game will eventually succumb to ease of servitude rather than deal with the malaise of solitude
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#9

Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?

Quote: (09-15-2013 06:13 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

I just got the vibe like she wouldn't go for the one night stand.

Don't say "no" for her.
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#10

Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?

Quote: (09-15-2013 07:14 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Great write up.

What did you guys talk about for 2 hours?
Where did you lead the conversation?
What emotions did you try to stir within her?

My gut reaction is that you didn't heat her up enough.

WIA


We talked about a lot of stuff, ranging from school to work, to where we are from, how long we lived in the area, what we like/dislike about the area, we joked around a bit, but also talked about a bunch of other stuff, (travel, sports, pets, plans for the future, etc). The conversation went well and she was easy to talk to, I definitely tried to inject a fair amount of flirting in the conversation, I slipped in a few subtle compliments, but kept it smooth and non-needy. I think I made my interest and sexual intent pretty clear, but I certainly could have tried to lead things in a more sexual direction, or been more aggressive.

I don't know what it is, I think I'm just over chicks that I see at the bar week in and week out, or just sick of the attention whore types who wear skimpy little outfits to get guys to fawn over them, so I've been going for more seemingly "innocent" types, girls that I've never seen out at the bars before or infrequently. This blonde kind of fit that bill and she like a couple other girls I've been dealing with tried to make her out to be the type of girl who doesn't go out and drink and party a lot and is more of the shy reserved type.

Whether or not that's the truth, I don't know, I know a lot of chicks try to work their own "game" and act a certain way or portray themselves a certain way which isn't always consistent with the truth. Any how those may reasons why I'm rationalizing why I didn't push harder or sexualize it more.

I would say I developed a lot of comfort and rapport, but apparently not enough sexual tension, although I did kino a lot, putting my arm around her and putting my hand on her upper thigh (she was wearing a skirt).

The best answers I got here are things I already know and just didn't do, I should have pushed earlier for the kiss, instead of waiting to go for it before she left. I also should have mentioned getting one last drink and hanging out at my place, to gauge her reaction, and make my intent fully understood.
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#11

Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?

Quote: (09-15-2013 09:04 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

Quote: (09-15-2013 07:14 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Great write up.

What did you guys talk about for 2 hours?
Where did you lead the conversation?
What emotions did you try to stir within her?

My gut reaction is that you didn't heat her up enough.

WIA


We talked about a lot of stuff, ranging from school to work, to where we are from, how long we lived in the area, what we like/dislike about the area, we joked around a bit, but also talked about a bunch of other stuff, (travel, sports, pets, plans for the future, etc). The conversation went well and she was easy to talk to, I definitely tried to inject a fair amount of flirting in the conversation, I slipped in a few subtle compliments, but kept it smooth and non-needy. I think I made my interest and sexual intent pretty clear, but I certainly could have tried to lead things in a more sexual direction, or been more aggressive.

I don't know what it is, I think I'm just over chicks that I see at the bar week in and week out, or just sick of the attention whore types who wear skimpy little outfits to get guys to fawn over them, so I've been going for more seemingly "innocent" types, girls that I've never seen out at the bars before or infrequently. This blonde kind of fit that bill and she like a couple other girls I've been dealing with tried to make her out to be the type of girl who doesn't go out and drink and party a lot and is more of the shy reserved type.

Whether or not that's the truth, I don't know, I know a lot of chicks try to work their own "game" and act a certain way or portray themselves a certain way which isn't always consistent with the truth. Any how those may reasons why I'm rationalizing why I didn't push harder or sexualize it more.

I would say I developed a lot of comfort and rapport, but apparently not enough sexual tension, although I did kino a lot, putting my arm around her and putting my hand on her upper thigh (she was wearing a skirt).

The best answers I got here are things I already know and just didn't do, I should have pushed earlier for the kiss, instead of waiting to go for it before she left. I also should have mentioned getting one last drink and hanging out at my place, to gauge her reaction, and make my intent fully understood.

I don't know if more aggression/more kino was the ticket.
If you're getting the go ahead with the kino, of course. But if she's just letting you move up the ladder, but not really reciprocating....

It goes back to the roller coaster. If you're not getting the wide range of emotional reactions, it's just a cool ass convo, it's been hard for me to take it to the next level then and there. I might lay some groundwork for a Day 2, but argh...it's like you invested 2 hours of your best shit, and she ain't bite. Frustrating.

WIA
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#12

Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?

Girls do complain about guys sending mixed messages. This seems laughable to us - girls are the Subject Matter Experts at mixed messages, of course. But if they're sensing that we want to fuck them, but then we aren't congruent to her perception (the perception that we want to fuck them) by acting in a manner with intent that logically communicates that we are attempting to fuck them, she gets confused.

That's my thought about what happened.

Check out my occasionally updated travel thread - The Wroclaw Gambit II: Dzięki Bogu - as I prepare to emigrate to Poland.
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#13

Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?

Ah, that's a tough one. Maybe offering your sofa as a place to crash could have kept her out with you longer.

They need that "plausible deniability" or it won't happen.
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#14

Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?

You know, there are some girls that just don't want to fuck a guy the first time they meet them, or even make out. I know this comes as anathema to current game dogma, but the fact that she didn't let you tag her honey walls that night doesn't necessarily mean she isn't DTF. Go out with her again and gauge that shit - if you sense she's leading you on or lukewarm, bail.

Look at it this way: do you want to bang her? Then you need to see her again. Worry less about the time invested and whether she likes you and make the choice for yourself.
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#15

Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?

Quote: (09-15-2013 05:54 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

Any how, I guess the point of this post aside from the long anecdote, is how do you guys decide whether or not to stick with an approach, or to "pull shoot" as I like to say, and cut your losses and move on to other chicks?

The fact that I spent two hours hanging out with the blonde and she left early and wouldn't let me kiss her, kind of annoyed me. Who knows what would have happened or what will happen, but part of me can't help but think there may have been a more DTF chick I could have macked on and actually gotten laid that night, as opposed to having to text the blonde who will most likely flake.
first... get your screening on

then...

Quote: (09-15-2013 05:54 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

Now, one of my biggest tests is whether a girl invests in conversation and asks me personal questions,
to me it's some signal but not really that big one. often times girls just carry on the conversation if it's interesting enough but there is no real urge on their part. they talk just to talk and waste our time. investment is something more than talking back and asking where you are from. IMO true investment is emotional and comes from the fear of loss. so there is some EMOTIONAL NEED on her part behind all that talking.

- statement not questions - using statement instead asking questions makes other people want to justify themselves because by telling something inaccurate [purposefully] about them they feel labelled and just NEED to explain what's up. for example, instead of asking where are you from? / what do you? tease them you're so tall and so blonde, tell me something in sweedish / from the way you act i can tell you must be one of those crazy PR people. guarantee girls will feel the need to correct you. but it won't be delivered in flat tone like in a normal conversation. it will be charged with emotion behind it.

- commanding & challenging tone of voice - the natural reaction to that is to be more apologetic. it's like someone in charge fucks with you and accuses you of something and you start explaining yourself which makes your voice high pitch and BL more seeking approval. example, "you don't even know my name! what's my name?"

- breaking eye contact and body language - by doing that you show that what she says is not interesting enough for you to pay attention so you're distracted and turn away a bit. it's done playfully. if she likes you then she will try to come up with something cool to say to get it back. then you reward her by listening to her and looking at her. so it's SHE who's stressed out trying to get your attention. see the investment? it's that fear of loss. not just the fact that she talks back saying whatever.

- playing with touch - by giving her just a bit but not enough makes it so special. it's playful spontaneous push/pull. you go in and break it. when you can cover it up with some bullshit excuse it's golden. read

- showing indifference - tell her "it's super fun you don't have to at all if you don't want to". or even tease her "no no stay you better stay here in this lame bar it's too cool there for you anyway" or "i'd like to dance but i don't really know about you, look, if you can't it's fine you can sit here and watch me". she's very likely to jump through your hoop.

notice it's not just about how to make her talk back. it's more than that. it's about how to make her feel compelled to stick to you and invest emotionally enough so that she doesn't want to fuck it up and feel rejected.

Quote: (09-15-2013 05:54 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

I fucking hate when that happens and it's been happening to me a lot lately, I get deep into the conversation zone with a chick, all signs seem to point towards success, but when I try to step up escalation they either shut down or pull away.
again, i suppose it was just a really good conversation maybe even deep topics were touching but in the end she was focused on talking itself not on the guy who's talking. i'm just guessing.


Quote: (09-15-2013 05:54 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

Is getting the make out a good litmus test? If a girl isn't down to kiss after you've spent an hour or two hanging out and flirting, is she probably not going to de down in general?
i personally don't like making out in public except for those SHORT little subtle kisses [that i always break]. i prefer playing with anticipation and sexual tension. when i see that sexy glance a girl does subconsciously that says "you're mine" that's all i need.
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#16

Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?

It's possible that the chick had a boyfriend and was just soaking up the attention. A lot of single women just will not be out by themselves, because it reminds them that they're single.
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#17

Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?

Sounds like a yellow light girl, as xxl describes in his screening post. Her bouncing with you was a big sign of compliance though. I would have thrown a few more compliance tests next time, to be sure.

First, I would ask her to hold something for you. a drink or jacket works well. come back and reward her with a cheek kiss. ask for a neck massage. then do something for her, like pull the chair for her, take a picture, etc. then point/tap to your cheek for a compliance kiss. if she doesn't get it, point more exaggerated, say "kiss", as in a command, but with a smirk. 90% will give a little peck. then tease her. "5/10. you can do better than that. try again, with *feeling!*. then reward her for the improved kiss.

If she won't play along or kiss your cheek, it"s time to move on to a warmer prospect.
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#18

Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?

What where you trying to acomplish?

Pulling her home?

Making out at the bar?

Just a kiss?

Her phone number?

If you dont have an specific goal, then you cant take specific action.
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#19

Gaming issue: when to "pull shoot"?

OG, what are your thoughts on day game?

Seems like you'd avoid a lot of the issues you've mentioned here.

RVF Fearless Coindogger Crew
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