[Tenerife]

If you've been lifting consistently for under a year, are in your mid twenties (with good tesosterone), but want to gain 20-30 pounds of extra muscle, should you just stick to natural weightlifting?

I just want the aesthetics and am willing to sacrifice some athleticism. Also, for me the gym isn't necessarily a proof of my character, so I'm not big on the natural method if taking a few mild cycles of roids can give me the boost I need.

[Hades]

(09-21-2013 09:44 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

^ You're under the mistaken impression that Sisson believes that test and gh are unhealthy.

I did some googling. I guess I was wrong to be skeptical, he seems suspiciously well informed on the subject.

Quote:

I would work closely with a trained anti-aging doctor to monitor my fasting glucose, fasting insulin, free and bound testosterone, liver enzymes, cortisol, DHEA, hematocrit, ferritin and other parameters.

Quote:

I would incorporate therapeutic amounts of testosterone (yes, I know it's illegal, but I'm giving you the best-case scenario), to balance out high levels of cortisol when I have gone to the well too much.

Yeah he's probably taking hgh and test. This practically reads like a confession. I bet he started when he trained for that ironman a few years back. Here's the interview if anybody is curious.

[MikeCF]

(09-22-2013 05:13 AM)Tenerife Wrote:  

If you've been lifting consistently for under a year, are in your mid twenties (with good tesosterone), but want to gain 20-30 pounds of extra muscle, should you just stick to natural weightlifting?

I just want the aesthetics and am willing to sacrifice some athleticism. Also, for me the gym isn't necessarily a proof of my character, so I'm not big on the natural method if taking a few mild cycles of roids can give me the boost I need.

3-5 years in the gym.

1 year of training means you don't even understand your body well enough in a natural state to start messing with hormones.

[DVY]

@MikeCF-

Ha, to be honest, most people take nowhere near 3000mg/day, but yea the danger of taking Tylenol is real ESPECIALLy if you drink alcohol or take any recreational drugs that are metabolized through the liver.

This is also why you don't take tylenol after drinking. The alcohol hasn't cleared your system (I think alch is metabolized 1 drink/hour in most people)

I wrote about it a while back---->

(01-02-2013 03:32 PM)DVY Wrote:  

Do not recommend acetaminophen with drinking. Acetaminophan impairs your liver enzymes from proper functioning.

Granted the dosages are small and possible effects minimal, but take an aspirin instead. In my head, why even take the extra un-necessary risk for the same result?

Acetaminophen is a level D or X tetratogen aka high chance of deformities when taken by pregnant women. That plus its liver nephotoxicity effects and poor combination w/alcohol is scary.

Honestly, its a wonder that tylenol is still widely sold OTC.

Doing CE courses....Verifying what I already knew. Especially for drinkers, acetaminophen is a terrible choice. You are warned...

"Acetaminophen, the leading cause of acute liver failure in the U.S., is a typical example to illustrate the latter type of event [129]. When administered at doses above the therapeutic thresh-old for analgesia and antipyresis, it causes liver
toxicity and can eventually cause death due to liver failure."

-Lewis JH, Ahmed M, Shobassy A, Palese C. Drug-induced liver disease. Curr Opin Gastroenterol. 2006;22(3):223-233.

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-170-post-339242.html#pid339242

[Ensam]

Also remember that a good number of the people who die from acetaminophen overdose are recovering vicodin addicts. Vicodin is hydrocodone complexed with acetaminophen. When people gradually increase their dose their liver adapts and can handle the increased acetaminophen load. When people quit and their livers revert back. But if they relapse they'll usually take the dosage they were taking right before they quit and it'll totally overload their liver and they die from acetaminophen poisoning - not from a hydrocodone overdose.

[Thomas the Rhymer]

(09-23-2013 02:12 AM)DVY Wrote:  

Acetaminophen is a level D or X tetratogen aka high chance of deformities when taken by pregnant women.

No. It's safe in pregnancy (internationally belongs to Category B). In fact, it's one of the few painkillers that can be given to pregnant women through all three trimesters.

It is, however, extremely toxic to cats.

You might be confusing acetaminophen with aspirin, which indeed is Category D.

[sthesia]

Learned a ton from this thread; and got extremely motivated to research further. (especially after reading stuff from the Mikes, Reaper, and others)

Have been chewing thru forums (T Nation, ATM), blogs, journal articles (urology, endocrinology), conference proceedings (A4M, Endocrine Society) for the past few weeks.
I have gotten a very solid understanding of the hormonal axis between hypothalamus, pituitary, testes and all the positive and negative feedback loops. Have also gained quite a bit of understanding about the HPTA hormonal axis as well. I think having a base of graduate work in reproductive biology definitely helped ease the learning curve for me.

Got extensive blood work done on my own after doing a ton of research as to what labs to get done.

My reason for posting is that I wanted to get some opinions from respected board members regarding what they would suggest given my circumstances. [Note: I know this is NOT a medical forum and that I should consult with a doctor, etc. etc.]
I simply want some thoughts from guys in the real world who have dealt with this stuff (i.e. personal experience.)

Personal background:
31yo
6'0' 190lbs
Gym 4 days/wk (squat, bench, overhead press, DL + some core conditioning/planks/pull-ups/etc. thrown in)
Poor recovery past few years; some lethargy; possibly lower libido as well
Diet: try to do some interm fasting 4-5 days per wk; know I need more protein in my diet
Meds: none
Supps: Vit D-3 10,000 units per day, Zinc 100mg daily (note: was previously on half dose of each, but am currently at these elevated doses after lab results showed me to be in mid-range on both assays)

Relevant Labs:
Total Test: 504 (300-1200)
Free Test: 16 (8-25)
Estradiol: 37 (7-42)
LH/FSH/SHBG: normal

Basically all other labs (CBC, BMP, Liver function, other hormones/minerals were all normal.)
Maybe slightly barely hypothyroid due to TSH near upper limit of normal (note: fT3, fT4 were normal)... but again values all fell within normal range according to reference values given by testing lab.
I won't go in to the nitty gritty of every single vitamin and mineral level I ordered.

So based on labs alone ... perhaps it wouldn't seem like I am a homerun candidate for T replacement therapy.
Plus maybe my symptoms are not thaaaat bad? (But I also don't know if this is just my poor baseline that I've become accustomed to.)
I've read some of the great experiences some of the members here have had with T replacement .... so I decided to seek out a local doctor for an evaluation/mgmt.
Nice guy ... basically said its up to me how I want to proceed. He doesn't treat a number but instead treats the symptoms.

He is willing to Rx Testosterone (injectable); aromatase inhibitor (anastrozole); HCG; clomiphene; plus supplies.
But he said the decision is mine and should depend on how severe I feel the symptoms are.

Truthfully, I am not in severe depression because of my poor recovery from workouts; inability to get rid of stubborn belly fat; lack of gain of lean muscle mass; average-mediocre sleep. But, maybe I don't know how amazing I will feel with supplementation? Perhaps supplementation can take me to the next level??

I am a little wary of shutting down my endogenous T production at such a young age. (although, HCG should probably take care of that worry) I may still want to keep my fertility intact down the road if I decide to have kids.

----
I am just looking for some thoughts/opinions from guys out there that maybe have been in my shoes and can give some insight. I'm very much willing to give this a go ... but also understand that perhaps I'm not taking some other important considerations into mind that I'm overlooking.

Also if anyone with experience would like to chime in on suggestions of where to start with drug therapy; I'd be willing to hear you out.

Some thoughts I had were:
-start HCG only therapy ... keeps endogenous production alive; doesn't mess with endogenous T levels shutting down; may run into high Estradiol issues tho (given that may E is already near upper limit of normal)
-start aromatase inhibitor only therapy ... doc said since I'm not very fat to begin with that I probably dont suffer from a lot of peripheral T to E conversion and thus an AI only therapy would do little to increase my T levels
-start T + AI + HCG (using dosing protocol I've seen others mention ... T 100mg per wk; HCG 250 units daily; AI ??dose??/??timing??)

Eager to learn more...

[reaper23]

dude, mad props because you really went out there and did it the right way.

you have all the pertinent information and have taken all the right steps.

and you found a kick ass doctor, where is this guy located? not kidding.

one minor quibble, the protocol i've seen doesnt have hcg 250iu per day but E3D.

500 is okish. you could probably live through that without too much problems.

and remember that you're 500 is probably pretty constant

when I get to 950, it drops over the week down to like 250-300. more peaks and valleys. it may average out to the same as you. but this also why i'm switching to twice a week injections.

I guess the real question is do you want to cycle up to supra physiological levels?

you've got the back up plan all set under a Doctor's supervision which is awesome.

It wasn't until I was on TRT did I ever cycle.

again, major kudos to you for doing the research and taking all the right steps.

[reaper23]

(09-18-2013 01:06 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  

(09-18-2013 12:58 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  

MM: any other source besides Alldaychemist?

for albuterol?

clearsky
inhousepharmacy.vu
not sure if aurapharm has it but you could check them

just priced alldaychemist v inhousepharmacy


10 mg singulair x 28 = $70 at inhouse
10 mg singulair x 30 = $9 at alldaychemist

public service announcement

[mikeymike]

(10-13-2013 10:43 AM)reaper23 Wrote:  

(09-18-2013 01:06 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  

(09-18-2013 12:58 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  

MM: any other source besides Alldaychemist?

for albuterol?

clearsky
inhousepharmacy.vu
not sure if aurapharm has it but you could check them

just priced alldaychemist v inhousepharmacy


10 mg singulair x 28 = $70 at inhouse
10 mg singulair x 30 = $9 at alldaychemist

public service announcement

nice find...you gotta shop around all these places they all have one or 2 items that are way cheaper than everywhere else.

[reaper23]

i will say that at 100mg/day i'm not getting much relief from the 10 mg singulair.

between the insomnia, the tension, the short fuse and the cardio impairment....thoughts of getting off are creeping into my mind and its only been two weeks

[pheonix500000]

(10-14-2013 10:57 AM)reaper23 Wrote:  

i will say that at 100mg/day i'm not getting much relief from the 10 mg singulair.

between the insomnia, the tension, the short fuse and the cardio impairment....thoughts of getting off are creeping into my mind and its only been two weeks

in total how much mg of test do you take a month?

[reaper23]

(10-15-2013 02:16 PM)pheonix500000 Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 10:57 AM)reaper23 Wrote:  

i will say that at 100mg/day i'm not getting much relief from the 10 mg singulair.

between the insomnia, the tension, the short fuse and the cardio impairment....thoughts of getting off are creeping into my mind and its only been two weeks

in total how much mg of test do you take a month?

100 mg per week

[mikeymike]

(10-14-2013 10:57 AM)reaper23 Wrote:  

i will say that at 100mg/day i'm not getting much relief from the 10 mg singulair.

between the insomnia, the tension, the short fuse and the cardio impairment....thoughts of getting off are creeping into my mind and its only been two weeks

Sadly tren just rough on some guys, you can go the sleeping pill route to counter insomnia and for many guys singulair and in cases albuterol ( I didn't like it for cardio but I have inhaler in case of tren cough, it kills it asap ) have made the difference for cardio but if it's not helping you then you might just be in the hard luck category, which I know is no help but you don't want to keep adding compounds into the mix just to run one compound. The singulair definitely helps me with cardio but my cardio output is still nowhere where it normally is, I do find that when I come off that my cardio output is higher than I was going into the blast tho...I liken it to training in high altitude, you're never going to feel "right" completely until you leave high altitude but that's when you feel how far you've come, a little hard work on tren is doing a lot of good but just not to the degree you're used to seeing..just stick to LISS and push into HIIT when you're off it, no need to go insane with cardio while on tren, you should be able to manage a low intensity crawl, shit I did it when I tried dnp, and if I can do it on that poison you can do it on tren. It's only 2 weeks in for this run and the first few weeks are always an adjustment if you're already this far in give it another couple weeks if you simply can't hack it at that point and the sides aren't diminishing at all, then it's probably time to look into going another direction. The golden era guys didn't rely on parabolan, most were cutting on nandros and primo, so there are multiple ways to skin a cat, and most of them are far easier on the body than tren.

[The Lizard of Oz]

sthesia,

You're 31; your labs are completely fine. I would bet that you don't sleep on an absolutely consistent schedule. Do so. Start going to bed at 11 PM and getting up at 7 AM, every day of the week, no excuses.

If you're using screens/devices after sunset, make sure you download flux.exe and use it correctly.

A 10,000 lux light-box will help you eliminate your mild depression/low libido and will profoundly deepen/enhance your sleep. Light therapy is a ridiculously underused technology which few people know anything about, but if you spend a few hours on pubmed reading about "bright light therapy," you'll learn many important things.

http://sunbox.com/?products=sunlight-jr

Use a lightbox; use flux; and maintain an absolutely consistent schedule for the next 6 weeks and then come back here and tell us how you feel.

It will be highly instructive all around.

[MikeCF]

Guy runs 700 mg of tren (!!!) a week/Blames tren for side effects.

Even at underdosed UG levels, 700 mg is insane.

I would never run 700 mg/week of tren. That's a crazy amount.

Using gear responsibly means taking a long view.

8 weeks of 300 mg. Then 8-12 weeks off.

Body recovers. Labs remain normal. Smooth.

No crazy gains in mass on a "baby cycle" but also no crazy crash. No one can really tell when you're on and off because your body doesn't change much when you go off.

You add a nice, sustainable 5-8 pounds of muscle a year.

After a few years you look good. In 10 years people can't help but notice you.

Let the high school kids or guys who wanna go pro run crazy doses.

We are middle aged men. By now we should have judgment and impulse control and be able to realize that quick muscle, like quick gains, is a mirage.

Slow and steady.

[reaper23]

i've been at this level before and had outstanding results. i took 12 weeks off, bloods recovered, everything is fine. endocrinologist monitored.

running even lower test this time than before with the tren and the sides seem worse, dont know why.

have cut back to 350/week to see what happens.

lets not get too crazy and start to think that just 700 mg / week of tren is anywhere near what even an amateur bodybuilder uses. they'll use that in conjunction with several other compounds adding up to over multiple grams of gear per week plus HGH and insulin.

one compound at 700 mg / week is not insane and easily recovered from.

like you've said before, guys like us monitor their bloodwork, health and other factors more religiously than others - and i'm no exception

[thoughtgypsy]

(10-10-2013 03:13 PM)sthesia Wrote:  

Learned a ton from this thread; and got extremely motivated to research further. (especially after reading stuff from the Mikes, Reaper, and others)

Have been chewing thru forums (T Nation, ATM), blogs, journal articles (urology, endocrinology), conference proceedings (A4M, Endocrine Society) for the past few weeks.
I have gotten a very solid understanding of the hormonal axis between hypothalamus, pituitary, testes and all the positive and negative feedback loops. Have also gained quite a bit of understanding about the HPTA hormonal axis as well. I think having a base of graduate work in reproductive biology definitely helped ease the learning curve for me.

Got extensive blood work done on my own after doing a ton of research as to what labs to get done.

My reason for posting is that I wanted to get some opinions from respected board members regarding what they would suggest given my circumstances. [Note: I know this is NOT a medical forum and that I should consult with a doctor, etc. etc.]
I simply want some thoughts from guys in the real world who have dealt with this stuff (i.e. personal experience.)

Personal background:
31yo
6'0' 190lbs
Gym 4 days/wk (squat, bench, overhead press, DL + some core conditioning/planks/pull-ups/etc. thrown in)
Poor recovery past few years; some lethargy; possibly lower libido as well
Diet: try to do some interm fasting 4-5 days per wk; know I need more protein in my diet
Meds: none
Supps: Vit D-3 10,000 units per day, Zinc 100mg daily (note: was previously on half dose of each, but am currently at these elevated doses after lab results showed me to be in mid-range on both assays)

Relevant Labs:
Total Test: 504 (300-1200)
Free Test: 16 (8-25)
Estradiol: 37 (7-42)
LH/FSH/SHBG: normal

Basically all other labs (CBC, BMP, Liver function, other hormones/minerals were all normal.)
Maybe slightly barely hypothyroid due to TSH near upper limit of normal (note: fT3, fT4 were normal)... but again values all fell within normal range according to reference values given by testing lab.
I won't go in to the nitty gritty of every single vitamin and mineral level I ordered.

So based on labs alone ... perhaps it wouldn't seem like I am a homerun candidate for T replacement therapy.
Plus maybe my symptoms are not thaaaat bad? (But I also don't know if this is just my poor baseline that I've become accustomed to.)
I've read some of the great experiences some of the members here have had with T replacement .... so I decided to seek out a local doctor for an evaluation/mgmt.
Nice guy ... basically said its up to me how I want to proceed. He doesn't treat a number but instead treats the symptoms.

He is willing to Rx Testosterone (injectable); aromatase inhibitor (anastrozole); HCG; clomiphene; plus supplies.
But he said the decision is mine and should depend on how severe I feel the symptoms are.

Truthfully, I am not in severe depression because of my poor recovery from workouts; inability to get rid of stubborn belly fat; lack of gain of lean muscle mass; average-mediocre sleep. But, maybe I don't know how amazing I will feel with supplementation? Perhaps supplementation can take me to the next level??

I am a little wary of shutting down my endogenous T production at such a young age. (although, HCG should probably take care of that worry) I may still want to keep my fertility intact down the road if I decide to have kids.

----
I am just looking for some thoughts/opinions from guys out there that maybe have been in my shoes and can give some insight. I'm very much willing to give this a go ... but also understand that perhaps I'm not taking some other important considerations into mind that I'm overlooking.

Also if anyone with experience would like to chime in on suggestions of where to start with drug therapy; I'd be willing to hear you out.

Some thoughts I had were:
-start HCG only therapy ... keeps endogenous production alive; doesn't mess with endogenous T levels shutting down; may run into high Estradiol issues tho (given that may E is already near upper limit of normal)
-start aromatase inhibitor only therapy ... doc said since I'm not very fat to begin with that I probably dont suffer from a lot of peripheral T to E conversion and thus an AI only therapy would do little to increase my T levels
-start T + AI + HCG (using dosing protocol I've seen others mention ... T 100mg per wk; HCG 250 units daily; AI ??dose??/??timing??)

Eager to learn more...

What is your caloric intake? The reason I ask is I've followed a similar workout regimen, and based on my food intake, xenoestrogen avoidance, and supplementation I should have been on paper a testosterone powerhouse. However, my caloric intake was about ~1000 calories/day below what it should have been and it was killing my T levels. It didn't help that I was doing high intensity compound lifts that were burning massive calories on top of my deficit. I've seen studies where having a low caloric diet can significantly reduce (~40%) your T levels.

Would you mind posting your diet breakdown? Personally, I was following a paleo-based diet plan, and without the carb hunger I just didn't eat as much. It was awesome for maintaining a cut physique, but testing revealed lower T levels than I wanted. I've recently incorporated some slow carbs like beans, brown rice, and sprouted bread to up my calories and sense of hunger. Taking apple cider vinegar with my carb meals helps control blood sugar spikes. I read that carbs help with restoring muscle glycogen and reduce the breakdown of muscle tissue (in the form of branch chain amino acids) while working out. Whatever you do, make sure you are getting enough cholesterol and fat in your diet. Fat should be at least 40% of your caloric intake, and testosterone is made from cholesterol so keep eating your eggs. Including cruciferous vegetables like broccoli will help minimize adverse effects of xenoestrogens, but if you're too lazy to cook veggies you can get some DMI supplements.

As a general rule, if you're doing weightlifting, you probably want ~18-20 calories per lb of bodyweight to maintain optimum T levels. If you're cutting, I wouldn't drop below a 500 kcal/day deficit. Your levels are probably pretty normal for your age compared to the rest of the population. If you want to exhaust every natural option before trying TRT, I'd try following a diet similar to: http://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/01/18...naturally/ and make sure you are getting enough calories. You can track it on myfitnesspal.com relatively accurately. Any time you make major changes to your diet and fitness routine, give it at least 6 weeks before testing to get a good indication of what it means on your T levels.

[sthesia]

Appreciate the feedback and comments. Quick update since last post ~1 month ago.

Vitals:
6' 0" 185lbs
Bodyfat (done by Pers trainer via calipers): ~22-23%

Gym:
4-6d/wk breakdown (Lifting days = 45-60min session with personal trainer)
Mon: DL/Back
Tue: Bench/Chest
Wed: 45 min stationary bike (target HR 130s)
Thu: Squat/Legs
Fri: OH Press/Arms
Sat or Sun: 45 min stationary bike (target HR 130s)

Had to take a break from DL and Squat for last 1-2 weeks due to lower back pain/strain when pulling/squatting. Could be a form issue ... or perhaps a muscle strain/sprain?
Instead of switching to rack pulls, decided to simply take a break from DL/Squat for a few workouts.
I have to take a break from the gym for a few weeks because I am having surgery tomm anyway ... will look to add the DL and Sq back in post-recovery... likely after T-giving.

Diet:
-gave up on the interm fasting trial as I think it was leading me to not get enough calories
-been using MyFitnessPal app on the iPhone to help track cals and macros
-on the 4 lifting days: try to get over 3000+ cals and 150-200 grams of Protein
-on non-lifting days: end up getting ~2000-2500 cals and 80-140 grams of Protein

Breakfast: 3-4 days per week try to get 3-4 egg omelette with tomatoes/avocado/cheese; no toast/potatoes
Lunch: something protein based (sushi, salad or soup with meat, etc.) / limited carbs on non-lifting days
Snack: try to have at least 1 chobani yogurt (14g protein) at some point during the day
Drinks: drink at least two 17oz muscle milk drinks per day (~32-34grams protein each) [usually 1st is with breakfast; 2nd is after lunch 1-2 hrs prior to 5pm lifting], plus a protein shake with 40g protein, skim milk, peanut butter, banana after every workout on the 4 lifting days
-that makes close to 100g protein just from protein drinks on lifting days (plus all the dietary intake of protein on top from whole foods)
Dinner: always something protein based (steak, meatballs, chicken, etc.) sometimes with some carbs thrown in limited to lifting days (noodles, pasta, etc.). On non-lifting days, will still try to do something protein based for dinner, but limit the carbs.

Diet has also been impacted recently by my having orthodontics put in place a few weeks ago. Protein drinks and shakes have been a savior in allowing me to keep my protein intake high, as chewing meats has been challenging these first few weeks with braces. (things are about to get even more challenging after tonsillectomy tomm.)

Related to orthodontics, I recently purchased an electrical toothbrush and a Waterpik water flosser. These purchases have motivated me to make personal dental hygiene a priority and hopefully a habit that will stick even after my braces come off in 12-15 months.

Supplements:
-Vit-D3 10,000 units daily
-Vit E 30 IU + Selenium 200mcg daily
-Vit K2 5mg daily
-Vit B12 5000mcg daily
-ZMA daily
-ACV 1-2tbsp in large glass of water 2-3x week

(Note: the Vits and Minerals are being supplemented based on test results based off my initial blood work)

Sleep:
-noticed some improvement after having blackout blinds installed in bedroom recently
-bought a 10,000lux Phillips light a few weeks ago and try to do 2-4 sessions per week of 20 mins of light therapy after waking in the morning
-been consistently getting at least 7-8+hrs of sleep per night (barring 1-2 days in the past month due to being hungover)

-Also related to sleep... am undergoing to tonsillectomy tomm for enlarged tonsils that may possibly have been contributing to some night time breathing obstruction (note: never had a formal sleep study) .. but have been prone to snoring in the past. So hopefully sleep can improve even more.
-Am also having some facial cosmetic work done while under anesthesia
-Planning on an approx 2-week long recovery during which time I am taking a break from the gym and my diet will be drastically effected (I will try to keep up my protein intake with protein shakes and smoothies and imagine I will be having a lot of juices early on as well)
-People have told me to expect anywhere from 5-10lbs of weight loss following this surgery due to difficulty in eating/swallowing post-op. Hoping that the weight loss is mostly fat loss and limited muscle loss.

Future TRT:
-plan to get my labs re-checked in early Dec (once fully recovered from surgery) ... that will be ~3 months since the last set of labs
-will re-eval plans for TRT based on new lab values

If Total T remains around the 500 level ... I am going to srsly consider a "cycle" of TRT. I realize its a little silly to call it a "cycle" of TRT, as usually when you go on TRT ... you don't really come off ... (unless you want to go back to your usual low endogenous levels). However, I believe in my case since I am already at a TT level of 500 ... I may want to experience first-hand what the diff between 500 and 1000 is.

I am really interested in cutting my BF down to sub 15% levels (from the current ~23%) and putting on some decent muscle mass in the next few months (Dec-Mar) when I'll be turning 32.

I'm imagining doing a TRT "cycle" of Test cyp or enanth at 100mg every 5 days (25G needle either IM or SQ) + hCG 250units every 3 days (SLIN pin). (might add in anastrozole 0.25mg every 3 days depending on Estradiol levels on labs as well to prevent any gynecomastia/other estrogenic effects.) I would run this "cycle" for approx 10 weeks or so, and then likely do some PCT with clomiphene and hCG for 2 weeks. This would give me a 3-month experience of what TRT could be like ... and if I don't notice a significant difference from my usual baseline, then I could hopefully return to my usual endogenous levels of ~500 and hold off on permanent TRT for another few years until I "really" need it.

Appreciate the discussion.

[The Lizard of Oz]

Thanks for the update.

I don't recommend doing light therapy 2-4 times a week. If you're going to do it, do it every day around the same time, soon after you wake up. You want to get consistent every day entrainment. 10,000 lux for about 30 minutes.

Which B-12 are you using? This Source Naturals sublingual is the best formulation I know of:

http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Met...blets/1461

[sthesia]

B12- I am using Jarrow Formulas methyl B12. They are sublingual lozenges. Highly rated, as well as advocated for on some anti-aging forums.

Light therapy- my research led me to understand that you want to titrate up your therapy over a period of time, rather than simply jumping into full dose therapy right away. I started with 15 min sessions at 50-75% intensity and have worked my way up to 20min sessions at 100% intensity. I also didn't find an overwhelming amt of evidence supporting over 20 min of usage per day. The timing of my therapy is very consistent as I do it almost immed upon awakening around 7-8ish a.m..

The funny thing is that now whenever I raise my blackout blinds in the morning and start the light therapy... the Phillips light just kind of blends into the background of the light coming in thru my uncovered window. The window is large and faces the sun just as it is rising in the morning. Note: the 10,000lux light still stays ~12-24in from my face/eyes.

It will be hard for me to provide a fully honest assessment of the effects of light therapy because I've made several other changes at the same time which may act as confounding factors. Namely: diet, blackout blinds, tonsillectomy (after today- which I'm kind of freaking out about).

[Vaun]

Animal Paks, you guys like them? Wanted to start a basic supp routine again as I am ramping up my training. I usually just do ZMA, Zinc and C if I get sick or run down, hit the tanning bed in the winter if I don't get outside. Getting my blood work redone this week too.