[Doc_J]

I decided to start this thread for people to share their experience and knowledge on negotiation tactics.

From my point of view negotiation is one of the focal points on getting ahead of the pack and becoming the best you can be. If you think about it, it doesn't really matter if you are discussing a new job with someone who will hire you, trying to get this girl to come home with you or just arguing with your mother about cleaning up your room, we are always negotiating. And the problem is it's not easy.

I'll start out the thread by putting my current situation into light where I am negotiating a new job with 2 different contenders:

I work as consultant for a firm based in Europe but with branches in almost every continent. I earn well but the work I've been doing lately does not motivate as I feel I am not learning anything new and I am not getting the chance to do what I do best. Also, the way things are managed doesn't really please me. So, I decided to be open to new opportunities which in my niche appear pretty often.

Usually opportunities that come along are not much better than the position I currently have but I have received two propositions on which I'm working.

I got an offer from a company based in Dubai to go work there. They made me an excellent offer where I can earn as much as 4 times what I earn now and not pay any taxes. Sounds good right? Sounded good to me too, the problem is they raised the expectation to a certain point but when the offer in paper came out it was at about 70% the expected. Now, this maybe their tactic for negotiating with me, it maybe merely mistake or maybe they just didn't get the budget from human resources that they were expecting to get. I'll right on how I handled this in a second....

Shortly after first being contacted by the Dubai company, I was approached by a former colleague to return to a company I used to work for 8 months ago. They want me back to go and command some operations in the US. As an European citizen there are some issues with visas etc that are still being worked out. But basically I think I could push them to get 2-3 times what I get paid now and would be able to live in any place of the US of my choice (which would probably go towards Miami).

So basically I have these two opportunities at hand. Analyzing this carefully, they help each other.

The fact that I have a choice on table allows me to be more blunt in my approach. Now, I do not like blackmail, it is a cowards crutch in business. So I don't use them against each other presenting one with the offer from the other, but I do use other tactics. For example, opportunity number one was brought to me by a headhunter (which I think Ill be able to bang if I meet her ), and I got into a really good and more personal relationship with her. Obviously she acts as a middle man so I told her that I had an alternative on the table instead of telling the actual employer. This protects me from appearing like a mercenary in the eyes of the company, but leverages my negotiation position with them since I know the headhunter will probably mention this with them at some point.
At the same time I responded to their offer. I was careful to do this in writing so that I can be as assertive as possible. I also did not refuse nor accept the offer. I merely told them that:

1. I was honored to receive their invitation to join the company
2. I was a bit disappointed with the offer since it failed initially set expectations
3. That I was available to discuss it on the phone if they like
   

Notice I didn't refuse. I left them in doubt and finished by keeping a way open for them to come back to me, even if to say this is the most they can offer right now. That way at least I'll be sure If I can stretch the rope or not a bit further.


As for opportunity number 2, I had lunch with my ex-colleague. I was careful to state my objectives clearly in what comes to money and to the job it self. However I was always very careful in highlighting my career objectives rather than my salary aspirations. Why? Because this will project the image you are a highly motivated professional who focuses on business. Of course it is important to not discard the money, but I was a bit open here and deferred it back to him with a "give me an offer I can't refuse approach" by not mentioning specific values, only ranges and indicating where I could negotiate (eg. less salary but more holidays).
By doing this I stated really clearly what I wanted, and was ambitious about it, but left him unsure of what kind of monetary offer would make me move, and hopefully this will make him play it safe and provide a higher value proposition.
In the meanwhile and since I got the offer from the 1st company I must accelerate negotiations with the 2nd so that I have two offers to choose from. So I have decided to send an email with bullet points on what I expect from their proposal. I will be ambitious but will indicate there is room for negotiation on some points, such as housing allowance, deviating attention from the big salary I will try to pull off.


So this basically is where I stand now, and we'll see how it turns out. I'll probably post the results when I finish this negotiation If anyone is interested.

I am usually good on negotiation but sometimes a bit aggressive as well and I try to work on that everyday. It is sometimes very difficult to know when to wait, to push, to show interest and to show disregard. I do what I do from experience, and of course knowing who you are dealing with is a very important thing for the whole matter.

[Vaun]

whenever I have a deal or contract process stall, which they always do, I ask the simple question "Are you interested in.." continuing, discussing, working with us, etc etc. It elicits three responses; yes, no and silence. Two of those I take as a positive and a green light to keep pursuing, the no is a win as I can move on quickly. So I am constantly trying to test the other side for their interest level, similar to game.

[Vaun]

(07-13-2013 08:51 AM)puckman Wrote:  

whenever I have a deal or contract process stall, which they always do, I ask the simple question "Are you interested in.." continuing, discussing, working with us, etc etc. It elicits three responses; yes, no and silence. Two of those I take as a positive and a green light to keep pursuing, the no is a win as I can move on quickly. So I am constantly trying to test the other side for their interest level, similar to game. I will actually up my game with silence to get them to either say no or yes quickly.

[Que enspastic]

in negotiation i always seek to understand, then be understood.

hold your cards, try and get them to reveal theirs first.

[Pinocchio]

start low/high, come down/up in small increments. First person to make a reasonable offer loses.

[Brodiaga]

Always ask for a higher salary when you get a job offer. Politely ask for $10k more, you'll likely get $5K. Realistically, this is your last chance to negotiate your salary with that company from a position of power.

[painter]

I spent years negotiating deals all day long. Once you have the script down in your head it's very simple.

A lot in negotiation depends on who is in the position of power. Sometimes you need something and negotiate from a weak position, sometimes somebody needs something from you and you negotiate from a strong position. Sometimes I wanted to help someone out, sometimes I nailed people to the wall.

It's a skill that takes practice. The more you do it, the better you get. When it becomes second nature you can negotiate anything with anyone anytime.

Negotiation should always be kept as simple as possible. Pick your target amount, start well above it (or well below it) then just go back and forth until you get to it. Never be afraid to walk away.

The biggest piece of advice I would give is to negotiate in tiny increments either upward or downward. For example, let's say the car you want to buy has a sticker price of $10,000. You offer $4000, they counter with $8000. Now you know what sort of "blocks" the other person is willing to knock off. I would counter that with $4500. The sales guy is dealing in $2000 blocks and I'm dealing in $500 blocks, I am in the power position here. However the negotiation goes he will be taking big chunks off while I only increase a small amount. Eventually they will reveal their bottom line as you go back and forth.

For a job negotiation you do the opposite, start high and work slowly down. By dealing in small blocks you will wear the other side down first, the top they are willing to pay you will become clear as you go back and forth and you either accept it or reject it depending on what you want. People do get pissed off when you out negotiate them, they hate being made to reveal their limit first but when you move slow and deal in tiny increments it's an inevitable win for you every time.

Don't ever be afraid to offer an insultingly low or high amount to begin negotiations. Most people are afraid to negotiate because they don't think it's polite. You have to pretend to be human while thinking like a robot, make the other side emotional while you control yours and stay disciplined. Set yourself up to let the negotiation play out until their limit is clear.

I do have respect for Soviet Style negotiation tactics but when you play hardball people get very emotional and even though that helps keep you in a position of power it creates a lot of animosity and I prefer to have people happy at the end of the deal, not pissed off.

[Doc_J]

Totally agree with your two points on never being afraid to walk away and never being afraid to offer an insulting amount but with the caveat of making sure you don't appear stupid or ignorant for not knowing market value.

[1bliss]

Say I recently started a job and the boss and I have already agreed after 3 months trial period, if I decide I like it and want to stay, we will negotiate another salary. For example I am making 30k now and I'm seeing how important I am/will be for this owner. Basically I do everything in terms of helping him run the company/business. Essentially I'm his executive assistant right now, I do all the accounting stuff, bookkeeping, deal with clients, go to dinners with him and clients, sit down and befriend clients, payroll, travel with him, deal with suppliers/manufacturers, orders, etc. He has already told me the plan for him is to have me be partner and run the place in 2-3 years with him.

Say in a month or 2 when it comes time to decide if I wanna stay and re-negotiate a better salary, he says he'd pay me 35k but I want at least 50k. How would you go about negotiating in this situation? I don't really consider him my boss as he is very very cool and genuine. The guy is very chill, genuinely nice, always happy, very generous, etc. Couldn't ask for a better person to work for. He's also somewhat of a family friend, not a stranger.

PS keep in mind that this guy hates losing an employee and finding somebody new. He is still extremely sad/disappointed that the last guy left after 1.5 years with him. And most of the other employees he has (secretary and labor people) have been with him for years (15+). So keep in mind that he's investing lots of time and training into me because he wants me here long term. So I think I have some power.

[Tigre]

Remember that negotiation is much more than just haggling over a price.

It's important to understand the other guy's figures and his position.

In situations where you're competing against others for a deal - if you can discover hidden value to offer to him, you will win.

Consider your own position holistically and over the long term. Sometimes the more sustainable deal over the long term will offer you more cumulative value. Squeezing the other guy's margin in the short term is not always a winning move if it just motivates him to substitute you out of the picture as soon as it's convenient.

There's a time and a place to use the phrase "what do you think is fair?" and just accede to that immediately. Especially if the difference is not that material to you.

[Young T.R.]

Never make the first offer, if possible.

[painter]

(07-14-2013 09:14 PM)1bliss Wrote:  

Say I recently started a job and the boss and I have already agreed after 3 months trial period, if I decide I like it and want to stay, we will negotiate another salary. For example I am making 30k now and I'm seeing how important I am/will be for this owner. Basically I do everything in terms of helping him run the company/business. Essentially I'm his executive assistant right now, I do all the accounting stuff, bookkeeping, deal with clients, go to dinners with him and clients, sit down and befriend clients, payroll, travel with him, deal with suppliers/manufacturers, orders, etc. He has already told me the plan for him is to have me be partner and run the place in 2-3 years with him.

Say in a month or 2 when it comes time to decide if I wanna stay and re-negotiate a better salary, he says he'd pay me 35k but I want at least 50k. How would you go about negotiating in this situation? I don't really consider him my boss as he is very very cool and genuine. The guy is very chill, genuinely nice, always happy, very generous, etc. Couldn't ask for a better person to work for. He's also somewhat of a family friend, not a stranger.

PS keep in mind that this guy hates losing an employee and finding somebody new. He is still extremely sad/disappointed that the last guy left after 1.5 years with him. And most of the other employees he has (secretary and labor people) have been with him for years (15+). So keep in mind that he's investing lots of time and training into me because he wants me here long term. So I think I have some power.

Hmm, tough situation to read here. Line up another job where they will pay you $50k and let him know that's what you need, but that's probably not very likely so you'd have to BS him about it. Can he easily afford to pay you $50k? He may want to try you out for a bit longer before bumping you up to that amount. If you want $50k and he wants $35k it's likely you'd wind up somewhere around $40k depending on who "wins" the negotiation.

Maybe use the negotiation to get some other perks, more vacation time, a vehicle, Fridays through the summer off, or a guaranteed higher salary down the road...

[Doc_J]

If you have such a good relationship with the guy I think what you need is to know what you want. Which for me doesn't look like you do.

If he is a honest and trustworthy guy with you and you are sure it's genuine, pay back in the same coin. Ask yourself the following questions:
-How much do I need to earn given my personal objectives. (at your age and experience what where you expecting to earn, and what you would earn somewhere else)
-How much do I deserve to earn realistically, taking into account the company's situation, your role in it and your pairs.

Take the number you get from asking the above (if they are different, take an average of both), and take it to him. If he is so nice as you say I think you can just be upfront about it and say you have been thinking about your salary and you would like to earn X (your number) + 10%. The 10% is for negotiation.

If you use the right tone and make it an informal conversation he will probably tell you he will think about it and after a few days either give you what you ask or try and negotiate with you.

I wouldn't go about getting another offer and leveraging that, because it seems like you like it there and you don't really want to leave, so if you are not prepared to leave, don't threaten you will, it will never work.

My 50 cents anyway....

[The Great Basilisk]

Might as well use this to ask some career advice:

I am currently in a junior level developer position. I will graduate next spring and when i started working here my salary was pretty solid considering the status of my studies. Now i have already advanced in my studies and they are nearing the end(3 courses + "show of studies"(30-50 pages of some bullshit about subject related to my field). I asked for a raise in the beginning of summer, but i got a strict "no" answer because "the company had not reached its financial goals", which of course, is none of my fucking concerns since its not my responsibility.

My expertise is well in demand in Finland and i could apply for another job BUT i have the following things to consider:

+ My work hours are crazy flexible; 2-5 days a week(i decide, even if i have no projects). This is good considering i still have 3 courses left to finish in school.
+ I like this job and my colleagues.
+ Location is perfect

+/- I am the only UI developer in the whole company, which brings me some responsibility, pushes me to learn and gives me "hand". On the other hand i have no mentor...
+/- I was promised a renegotiation of my salary once i graduate. But i feel like i don't have as much "hand" as i could due to...

-Low salary. My salary is lagging behind my responsibilities. My boss wasn't even willing to negotiate about a raise...

I feel like my options are:

1) Work as before. Finish studies. Renegotiate contract once i graduate. Will turn out decent enough. I feel like this is something a sheep would do. This is easy.
2) Apply for other positions right before graduation. Get leverage in the form of other job offers. Take the best contract. This is the seconds easiest.
3) Apply for other jobs right away. Force my boss to offer a raise right now. Lots of projects would fail if i left right now, lots of uncertainty for the company at least for the next 2 quarters. This option would be very hard to do because of my studies.

What would you do?

I cannot burn bridges under any circumstances. The industry is crazy small in Finland

[1bliss]

(07-15-2013 05:09 AM)painter Wrote:  

(07-14-2013 09:14 PM)1bliss Wrote:  

Say I recently started a job and the boss and I have already agreed after 3 months trial period, if I decide I like it and want to stay, we will negotiate another salary. For example I am making 30k now and I'm seeing how important I am/will be for this owner. Basically I do everything in terms of helping him run the company/business. Essentially I'm his executive assistant right now, I do all the accounting stuff, bookkeeping, deal with clients, go to dinners with him and clients, sit down and befriend clients, payroll, travel with him, deal with suppliers/manufacturers, orders, etc. He has already told me the plan for him is to have me be partner and run the place in 2-3 years with him.

Say in a month or 2 when it comes time to decide if I wanna stay and re-negotiate a better salary, he says he'd pay me 35k but I want at least 50k. How would you go about negotiating in this situation? I don't really consider him my boss as he is very very cool and genuine. The guy is very chill, genuinely nice, always happy, very generous, etc. Couldn't ask for a better person to work for. He's also somewhat of a family friend, not a stranger.

PS keep in mind that this guy hates losing an employee and finding somebody new. He is still extremely sad/disappointed that the last guy left after 1.5 years with him. And most of the other employees he has (secretary and labor people) have been with him for years (15+). So keep in mind that he's investing lots of time and training into me because he wants me here long term. So I think I have some power.

Hmm, tough situation to read here. Line up another job where they will pay you $50k and let him know that's what you need, but that's probably not very likely so you'd have to BS him about it. Can he easily afford to pay you $50k? He may want to try you out for a bit longer before bumping you up to that amount. If you want $50k and he wants $35k it's likely you'd wind up somewhere around $40k depending on who "wins" the negotiation.

Maybe use the negotiation to get some other perks, more vacation time, a vehicle, Fridays through the summer off, or a guaranteed higher salary down the road...

We went for dinner the other day after work. At the top of the Trump Hotel. Great food, great atmosphere (we ran into a rich old man that he knew and was friends with), good scotch.

He basically told me that he always mentions the previous guy who worked before me because he was so disappointed and sad (and still is)
about him leaving after 1.5 years with him because he had plans to have him become partner and co-run the place with him (the other guy was my age, 23). He said that's the plan for me so I need to figure out if this is what I wanna do for sure. He also said he understands I'm still young and he doesn't expect me to know this is what I want for awhile, but to keep it in mind.

He might be saying this to justify why he has me learning and doing so much in the shop, from bookkeping, accounting, to ordering, phone, and going to dinners/lunches with him and clients. He always introduces me as his right-hand man to all the wealthy successful clients of his, even the less rich ones although still super rich. Never puts me under him, always beside him. So I kind of believe him.

So I don't really know how to approach the negotiations.

[Vaun]

(07-14-2013 08:53 AM)painter Wrote:  

I do have respect for Soviet Style negotiation tactics but when you play hardball people get very emotional and even though that helps keep you in a position of power it creates a lot of animosity and I prefer to have people happy at the end of the deal, not pissed off.

I have noticed Israelis negotiate like this as well, struggling to see the positives and to me it only sets up short term engagements.

[slubu]

Bumping this old thread. Anyone have any recommendations for good books to read about negotiation?

[Travesty]

The Art of the Deal

[RoastBeefCurtains4Me]

Negotiating is like poker. You have to have table stakes. You have to have something the other person wants, that they can't easily get from someone else. Most ordinary people don't have a situation like this. They hope to get a job, but they are easily replaceable. Basically, they have to settle for what the employer wants to pay, and it has to be less trouble to hire them than to deal with bringing in someone else to interview.

Guys on this forum should know to make themselves more valuable.

Even among those who have real value to offer, many are afraid to play hardball with it. They let the other person in the negotiation get the better end of the deal, instead of getting the full value they are worth.

Once you start to see the pattern as I describe it, you can start to relish the opportunity to squeeze the other guy in the negotiation. You enter negotiation with options, with the ability to walk away, while you know the other guy needs what you have to offer.

If you have any worthwhile level of skill or talent, then you have to know there are never enough good people. Have you ever tried to hire someone to manage a business operation for you profitably, or to take responsibility for a major project and deliver it on time and on budget? Good luck! If you can do these things, then you have table stakes, and you should use them. If you don't have this level of value, improve yourself and become that kind of man.

Negotiation is not just about buying a car or agreeing on a salary for a new job. It's wheeling and dealing. It's hustling to get ahead. It's game.

[Peregrine]

To paraphrase the late (and great) Felix Dennis, a lot of this thread is talking about problem solving, not negotiating. Read chapter 11 of his book (yes, that one) if you're interested. For another example, read about the interactions between Alan Schwartz and Jamie Dimon when discussing the sale of Bear Stearns to JP Morgan. That's negotiation.

Instead of playing hardball with potential employers, why not develop a relationship with a boss to the point where you can trust him to pay you top dollar? I have a friend who literally said to his boss, I know you want what's best for me and will fight to get it, here's my signature - fill in whatever number you can get for me. Guess what? He's making above market rate and, more importantly, has more advancement opportunities within the company than if he played silly games.

[Brodiaga]

(09-08-2015 08:46 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Instead of playing hardball with potential employers, why not develop a relationship with a boss to the point where you can trust him to pay you top dollar? I have a friend who literally said to his boss, I know you want what's best for me and will fight to get it, here's my signature - fill in whatever number you can get for me. Guess what? He's making above market rate and, more importantly, has more advancement opportunities within the company than if he played silly games.

This all sounds great, but in reality, during a typical interview process, you get about an hour of interview time with your would-be boss. Then, if you are selected, a one or two opportunities to talk to him and discuss the offer (this part may be over the phone or email).

At Google and other companies trying to be like Google, you may not even get interviewed by your boss, because they select a bunch of candidates and then assign them to projects/teams.

In this situation, the best thing you can do is politely ask for more (like I mentioned earlier in this thread) and have a convincing answer when they ask why you need more.

[el conquistador]

(09-08-2015 06:55 PM)slubu Wrote:  

Bumping this old thread. Anyone have any recommendations for good books to read about negotiation?

I read 'Secrects Of Power Negotiation' by Roger Dawson. It's a good mix of overall mindsets and actionable lines you can use.

A few things I've learned from that book and my own experience:

1. What's very important to you might be something your negotiating rival cares little about and vice versa. For example, the girl wants dinner at a nice restaurant and you want sex. You don't have to butt heads because you're not fighting over the same thing.

It can be win-win rather than two dogs fighting over the same bone. Bring other prizes into the negotiation so that you don't deadlock on one thing e.g. price.

2. I used to be worried about insulting people with an extremely low first offer. But remember, you're not putting a gun to his head and forcing him to take a loss in his business. He can laugh, call you cheap, walk away etc. that's his prerogative. You're free to make a ridiculously low offer and he's free to refuse or accept it.

3. Practice in low pressure environments first (flea markets, third-world cab drivers) to get comfortable before you start negotiating over thousands of dollars.

Refusing and walking away is uncomfortable. You need to feel this discomfort as it's not something you can read your way through. The Dawson book is a great start though.

[Ice]

(07-14-2013 08:53 AM)painter Wrote:  

The biggest piece of advice I would give is to negotiate in tiny increments either upward or downward. For example, let's say the car you want to buy has a sticker price of $10,000. You offer $4000, they counter with $8000. Now you know what sort of "blocks" the other person is willing to knock off. I would counter that with $4500. The sales guy is dealing in $2000 blocks and I'm dealing in $500 blocks, I am in the power position here. However the negotiation goes he will be taking big chunks off while I only increase a small amount. Eventually they will reveal their bottom line as you go back and forth.

For a job negotiation you do the opposite, start high and work slowly down. By dealing in small blocks you will wear the other side down first, the top they are willing to pay you will become clear as you go back and forth and you either accept it or reject it depending on what you want. People do get pissed off when you out negotiate them, they hate being made to reveal their limit first but when you move slow and deal in tiny increments it's an inevitable win for you every time.

Don't ever be afraid to offer an insultingly low or high amount to begin negotiations. Most people are afraid to negotiate because they don't think it's polite. You have to pretend to be human while thinking like a robot, make the other side emotional while you control yours and stay disciplined. Set yourself up to let the negotiation play out until their limit is clear.

I do have respect for Soviet Style negotiation tactics but when you play hardball people get very emotional and even though that helps keep you in a position of power it creates a lot of animosity and I prefer to have people happy at the end of the deal, not pissed off.

Yeah this sounds very nice, and I have heard that before. But how realistic is that really.

So a car is 10'000 and you offer 4000 and then 4500 - ok, that works if you have a lot of options and you are in a power position.

(07-14-2013 08:53 AM)painter Wrote:  

Don't ever be afraid to offer an insultingly low or high amount to begin negotiations.

Well that is a good recipe to lose out on most job offers. There might be situations where they just NEED YOU, but in most cases there are other candidates for a position. So I'm always a bit sceptical about advice like this.

[Peregrine]

(09-08-2015 09:30 PM)Brodiaga Wrote:  

(09-08-2015 08:46 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Instead of playing hardball with potential employers, why not develop a relationship with a boss to the point where you can trust him to pay you top dollar? I have a friend who literally said to his boss, I know you want what's best for me and will fight to get it, here's my signature - fill in whatever number you can get for me. Guess what? He's making above market rate and, more importantly, has more advancement opportunities within the company than if he played silly games.

This all sounds great, but in reality, during a typical interview process, you get about an hour of interview time with your would-be boss. Then, if you are selected, a one or two opportunities to talk to him and discuss the offer (this part may be over the phone or email).

At Google and other companies trying to be like Google, you may not even get interviewed by your boss, because they select a bunch of candidates and then assign them to projects/teams.

In this situation, the best thing you can do is politely ask for more (like I mentioned earlier in this thread) and have a convincing answer when they ask why you need more.

All the more reason to avoid the typical interview process. Seek to work for people that you know and have had enough time to build up a relationship based on mutual trust. It's not realistic for your first job or two, but once you've been in an industry for a couple years, you should have built up a solid network.