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Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced
#26

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

Quote: (07-11-2013 09:00 PM)lurker Wrote:  

9. Go have preliminary case discussions with as many of the best family attorneys in town as he can deal with/afford.

Paternity isn't really up for debate at this point - legally, he has a short window to challenge it after the birth of the child. Most states have a one-year timeframe. Sounds like it's moot anyway.
If I understand correctly (this does not constitute legal advice blah blah please sign acknowledgement of waiver here) doing this prevents the lawyers he talks to from representing her in the case due to conflict of interest. Was going to type this up but lurker already said it.

Don't skimp on a good lawyer who can be aggressive if necessary.

I don't know how a trip to Vegas and lots of withdrawals would work. It might still need some kind of documentation. Perhaps gifting a large cash sum to parents who happen to be making a large purchase in a relatively liquid investment?

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#27

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

Quote: (07-11-2013 08:20 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

Thanks to everyone for chiming in so far. Keep it coming.

I'm making some mental notes of few bullet points to tell the guy to get his juices flowing. Some of the source material (websites, books) might be a little much for him right now, but I'll feel out where he is.

Here are some of my talking points:

1. File first!
2. Don't move out of the house
3. Record everything (written or otherwise)
4. Move and protect assets
5. Save receipts and records for alibis against potential (even likely) false accusations
6. Expect the worst from her (this we all know from being red pill)
7. Angle for mediation
8. Don't have sex with her again (I doubt he would)

That pretty much covers it much of it. However, I would move out. She's going to push his buttons and get him arrested the minute he does something stupid. Chances are that she's already plotting to kick him out and move the side dude in. probably she's waiting for the 10 year mark so she could get a piece of his Social security. I agree with MikeCF, getting the kid tested is a waste of time since in most states kids born under matrimony are presumed to be the husband by law so you are going to be paying child support anyways.

Does he have a pension? Does he own a house? Do you know for a fact he's been married less than 10 years? Did she worked?

If you are just a square dude who gets a w2 at the end of the year is almost next to impossible to hide your assets around. If he has a pension and a house. I would give up the house in a minute, sure it sucks that Diego is going to be balls deep in her at the house he worked so hard to come up with the down payment for but a pension is worth way more.
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#28

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

Quote: (07-11-2013 03:38 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

Fact Pattern:



What are some pieces of advice that I can send this cat's way as he enters this fucked up situation? Anything from legal to logistical to philosophical would be useful. Whatever you got, throw it out. I plan on having a serious heart-to-heart in the next day or two, so let the knowledge flow.

I'm going to give you some real talk.

The answer is. . .leave him be. Yeah it's harsh and he's your friend and all, but if you try to give answer to people who aren't asking for it, then it'll just blow up in your face. Now if he asks you for help/advice, then that means he's ready for it, then you can drop all sorts of your knowledge on him, shit, you could make it into a college type course and he'll eat that shit up.

But if he's not asking, just leave him be. If you want to try to help him anyway, and not have it blow up in your face (and lose a friend) Then lead by example. Don't rub it in his face, just live your life the best way you can, become so successful at your lifestyle, that he HAS to notice it! he'll wonder and wonder about it(opening himself in the process) and then eventually he'll ask you about it. THEN, lay out all the knowledge on him.

When people are ready for the answer, they'll find it. . .the pathway to the "answer" he is looking for may come from you, but most likely, he'll find another source. . .a source that is close enough to his beliefs, that it actually helps bridge his current belief, into a new one.

so yeah, the best thing you can do, is don't think about him, just make yourself as happy in your life as possible.

He'll either ask you about it, or you'll both drift off.

The alternative is have an ugly end to your friendship.

(the fact that he didn't dump that girl the first time she cheated on him after all your/other people's advice is a clear indication that he was not ready, and still isn't ready to hear what you have to say.)

This is one of the reasons why the phrase "the game is sold not told." exists.

Isaiah 4:1
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#29

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

as a resource for this thread I am reposting this thread from Dads Divorce forum called The List. It is basically your best source for a strategy, for a divorce, to protect your custody and your assets. Many of the basics from above are here.

The thing is, if you hire a lawyer who disagrees with this, FIRE HIS ASS. Hire a good lawyer that agrees with these tactics.

The List

WHY ARE YOU HERE?? This is not a silly question. You are about to learn a whole new meaning of the term,"rebuttable presumption," and why it applies exclusively to you in Family Court.

Trust me, you're in for the fight of your life. If you're not prepared, you can bet the other side will rebut you right out of fatherhood and into poverty. Your children, with your current and future finances, will be out of your life forevermore.

Your goal therefore, demands a strong offense. This requires dedication, support, "pro-active" planning, and lots of research. In other words, PREPARATION IS EVERYTHING!!

The following list is neither conclusive nor is it exhaustive. For that matter, not all of it will apply to you. Nevertheless, its intent is to get you to think, ask hard questions, and above all, to be prepared. Copy it. Print it. NEVER let your STBX see it.

What ever you do, NEVER LEAVE YOUR MARITAL RESIDENCE unless ordered by the court!! If you do, your STBX is free to do unto you as you are about to do unto her. It'll be a mistake that'll cost you dearly.

If you're not THOROUGHLY prepared, the other side will find your weakness and work you over. Their primary purpose is to "soften you up" and get you to give up custody WILLINGLY!! "THEY HAVE METHODS!!" They'll even recruit your attorney and get you to sign documents you'll
later regret. If you're not prepared, and if you fail to choose your attorney wisely, there'll be nothing left of you when they're done.

If your STBX files first, she's already plotted her next 10 moves against you. This is not where you want to be. If she files first, you can expect:

1) a restraining order that evicts you from your house and prevents you from contacting your kids.

2) to pay temporary child support, temporary alimony, community debt, and/or bills accumulated by your STBX during these proceedings. This can be 1 to 3 years. You'll be bankrupt well before trial.

3) to pay court costs and other fees, in addition to expenses mentioned above: GAL; Custody/Child Evaluator; Psychological evaluation; Your STBX's attorney fees.

EXPECT HER TO LIE. EXPECT THEM TO BELIEVE HER. EXPECT NO FAIRNESS. EXPECT TO NEED MOUNTAINS OF EVIDENCE TO PROVE YOUR CASE.

Their goal is to "bleed you dry" and beat you into submission. You'll never see the last of their dirty tricks. It behooves you therefore to be very prepared very early.

NEVER BE IN A POSITION WHERE YOU HAVE TO PLAY "CATCH-UP."

If you've got "skeletons" in your closet, prepare accordingly, ahead of time. Do likewise with your STBX's skeletons. Gather all incriminating info while you can. Never give her the opportunity to cover her tracks.

For starters, develop an EARLY GAME PLAN to win custody. Execute your play according to YOUR timetable. Pick your shots. Make them count. Timing is everything. Keep the other side off balance. This is very important.

Lay out a trap-line for your STBX. Perpetually work on setting her up for the fall. You know her weakness. Bait her!! Give her every opportunity to make a mistake. Spring your trap in front of the camera and in front of witnesses. Document everything.

Everything must be documented in a WELL-WORDED journal. What you write must be factual and correct. At trial, your journal will be a valuable source of events, dates, and patterns of behavior. Your journal should also contain surprises to keep the other side off balance. Most
importantly, your journal will discredit fabricated testimony and lies you can expect from the other side.

Along with your journal, gather supporting evidence with photos and videos. Put a trace program on the computer and a recorder on the phone. Don't be afraid to record phone calls. Make it your business to know where your STBX goes in cyber-space. Above all get witnesses, especially professionals involved with your STBX & kids. You may want to hire a PI. A visit to your local spy shop will be very worth while. Think of it as an investment.

Your journal, together with supporting evidence, will help you. More correctly, they will help your attorney. Remember, your attorney is only as effective as the information you give him. If he gets little from you, you can expect little in return.

Type and/or otherwise arrange journal notes well in advance of trial. Reserve plenty of time to review your journal with your attorney. You must bond with your attorney, and he must bond with you. Both of you must be "reading from the same page" between now and trial. Be sure save your original journal draft. You may need it.

YOUR JOURNAL IS THE TEMPLATE OF YOUR CASE!! Guard it carefully. It contains secrets the other side would love to have. Above all, BEWARE of so-called "neutral third parties," like the GAL or Custody Evaluator. These thugs are anything but neutral. They will specifically target their report and/or testimony to discredit everything you've written. To guard against subpoena, address each page to your attorney. Remember, the primary purpose of your journal is to rebut and/or otherwise discredit the lies and fabricated testimony that'll come from the other side. THIS IS OF THE UTMOST IMPORTANCE!!

Never sign anything the custody evaluator asks you to sign - even if it's a scrap of paper that states you agree to XYZ conditions. This is a trap. Anything you sign becomes a bona-fide legal document that will be used against you in court.

PLOTTING DATA (patterns of behavior) from your journal:

It's very important to have supporting evidence to back up your documentation. Photos and witnesses are ideal. However, you can't always count on people, nor can you count on having a camera when you need one. Therefore, you must build your case with what you have. YOUR JOURNAL!!

If done properly and consistantly, your journal becomes the heart and soul of your case. It is filled with important data. This data shows your STBX's pattern of behavior over time. In other words, you can scientifically predict how your STBX will behave based upon the data you've collected. Remember, when plotting scientific data of any nature, you can expect surprises. Remember, surprises are what keeps the other side off balance.

Data from your journal can be plotted on a graph, a pie chart, or bar chart. For comparison, it's a good idea to use all of the above. You'll need Excel software.

Plotted data are much easier to intrepret, both for the judge and your attorney. Plotted data show large blocks of evidence at a glance; ie, parenting history/behavior. This helps rebut the built-in bias of the system, and scientifically supports your bid for custody.

Keep in mind, a single "judgement error" will NEVER get the judge's attention. However, a "PATTERN" of well-documented judgement errors, supported by evidence, will make a difference.

Remember, neither the judge nor your attorney want to sift through endless streams of relatively "meaningless" journal data. Consider your audience. It's up to you to make things as easy as possible for them both.

SET YOURSELF UP TO WIN!! Pay attention to detail. Follow through on leads. Don't get side-tracked!! Use only what works for you.

BECOME A "CHILD ADVOCATE."

1) Get involved with a network of parent educators.

2) Make time for play dates and/or parties. Invite parent-chaperones who will observe you as a Superdad in fine form. Make sure mothers are invited. Ideally, they should be solidly married, above reproach, and will not be disparaged for having an affair with you.

These are great sources for collateral witnesses.

2) Enroll yourself and/or your kids in classes/counseling/treatment as necessary: Parenting classes; Co-parenting classes; Anger managment; Couseling for kids caught-in-the-middle; enroll in a Children's First program; Alcohol/drug treatment. Read contemporary books and literature
on the above subject matter. Take the initiative. Become informed. Do whatever it takes. Don't wait 'til it's too late.

3) The most important witnesses are court-appointed professionals, so-called "neutral third parties." They include; the home study evaluator, the forensic evaluator, the custody evaluator, the psychologist, the play therapist, and the GAL. Tread lightly with these people. They are
anything but neutral. These thugs are "GOD" in determining custody decisions. Keep in mind, the judge is gonna rule whatever they recommend. They live by one fundamental principle, "Dads be damned."

Whatever you do, NEVER agree to any form of binding mediation. You'll be giving up all your rights to further litigation. You'd just as well sell your soul to the Devil.

From the beginning, you must "attempt" get these witnesses on your side. They are the "tie-breaker." Truth be known, it's their job to insure the race isn't even close, much less a "tie." Nevertheless, do your best. Be sure to document everything.

a) It's their job to not like you.
b) It's their job to fabricate lies about you.
c) It's their job to soften you up and trick you into giving up custody before trial.

Remember "rebuttable presumption?" Some state's statutes declare both fathers and mothers have an equal right to parent their children. In this phase, that right is summarily taken from you. In other words, the game is rigged. It should come as no surprise, gender discrimination is rife within the Judicial Branch of Government.

With that in mind, you might consider hiring a private custody evaluator. The idea is to bring conflicting opinion/testimony with you to court. This is one sure way to minimize a GAL's highly biased testimony/report.

Additionally, make sure to get documentation/history of any violence, both physical and/or verbal/psychological. Is your STBX any threat to herself, to you, to your kids, or to anyone else? Evidence of this nature is critical to rebut an already biased GAL report/testimony.

I've heard of ONE (1) favorable recommend from a GAL. This dad was a school teacher. He was thoroughly professional and very well connected. Additionally he graduated with "honors" from parenting classes and had become a state-certified foster parent. In other words, he had credentials the rest of us don't have or can't get. The GAL liked this dad because he was "one of them."

In family court, the average "Joe Six-Pack" has a 90% chance of losing. That's why your journal and witness list are of the utmost importance.

Here's another example. Risky? Hell yes! But the results are what counts.

Both Parties agreed, together with the judge, to allow the final custody decision to be handled by a custody evaluator. Dad's attorney was familiar with this evaluator and requested that she hear testimony. Stbx's attorney also agreed with the request.

The evaluator met with both attorneys prior to taking testimony. She strongly advised that the Parties settle ahead of time. (Note: This is why you never agree to binding mediation.)

At this critical moment, Dad's attorney revealed the existence of a detailed journal together with a substantial body of evidence. He suggested the Parties walk away with dignity and share custodybetween them. As a result, Dad's STBX agreed to sharing both physical and legal custody without the evaluator deciding for them.

Dad's guess is that his attorney had spooked his STBX in prior courtroom encounters. She gave up without a fight, certainly not because she wanted to. Of that, Dad is sure.

The lesson here is that Dad's attorney had taken the initiative to thoroughly study the journal well in advance. As a result, Dad's attorney was convinced that the journal would tip the balance in an occasion such as this.

Thus: a detailed journal + a good attorney + strategy = Victory

There was another dad that "bought" his STBX out. He got the house, the kids, and everything for $70K. Still another dad got out of paying alimony for a mere $11K. I realize this sounds like a lot all at once. But over time, it's a bargain. Remember, let your attorney handle the negotiating process.

MOVING ON: Your WITNESS LIST must be exhaustive. Other than court-appointed professionals, people that see you with your children and/or otherwise know you personally are going to be your best witnesses. Remember, not everyone will support you, nor will they be available when you need them.

Potential witnesses include: Extended family; neighbors; day care, school professionals; parent volunteers; medical professionals; adult activity leaders.

"Cardinal Rule" No 1....... KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!! LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS!!

This is war. You must approach this as a top-secret military operation.

1) Thou shalt not raise any suspicions. DO NOT TELEGRAPH YOUR INTENTIONS.
a) Thou shalt not tell anyone what you're up to, ESPECIALLY YOUR STBX.
b) Thou shalt not share information with anyone about anything.
c) Thou shalt take care of business like nothing's going on.

2) Thou shalt not get side-tracked. This is "crunch time." Manage your time wisely.

3) Thou shalt maintain thy Poker Face. Get prepared for the long hall.

"Cardinal Rule" No 2....... NEVER LET YOUR GUARD DOWN!! WATCH YOUR BACK!!

Have minimal contact with your STBX. NEVER be in a position where she can allege domestic violence of any kind. It's best not to be alone with her. Always have a witness with you.

1) Be very careful when you are alone with your STBX.
a) She can file false domestic violence charges "at will," and have you thrown in jail.
b) She can get a restraining order "at will," and have you kicked out of your house.

2) "Thou shalt ALWAYS bite the bullet." At the same, "Thou shalt ALWAYS be bulding thy case."
a) Thou shalt not argue. Thou shalt not fight. Thou shalt not provoke thy STBX.
b) Thou shalt go the extra mile to be civil. Thou shalt be Mr Nice Guy.

3) Never engage in any form of business with your ex, no matter how much the deal "appears" to be in your favor. It will be a trap you'll regret 'til your dying day. Remember, there ain't no free lunch. You can always expect a pay-back down the road.

"Cardinal Rule" No 3....... BE THE BEST DAD YOU CAN BE!! DO WHATEVER IT TAKES!!

1) Get involved with your kids as much as possible.
a) Assume the role of primary caretaker well in advance.
b) This'll set you up for primary, if not 50/50 shared primary custody. This is your goal. Never lose sight of that!!

2) Make everything you do in the best interest of your kids. Always go the extra mile.

Give your STBX a day off every week. "That's OK, Honey. I'll take care of this. Why don't you go shopping?" Take advantage to document parenting time, and snoop around when she's not home.

The following sites offer charts to document parenting time and other relavent issues. Use them to help plan what you need to do.

http://www.deltabravo.net/custody/index.html
http://www.parentingtime.net/
http://www.ChildCustodyCoach.com

"Cardinal Rule" No 4....... GET CONNECTED!! STAY INFORMED!!

1) Familiarize yourself with Family Laws, Administrative Rules, and court procedures.
a) You must understand the court process and how the family law system works.
b) It is your responsibility to know anything and everything that applies to you.
c) Mastery of your state's Family Code will confer advantage to you in the courtroom.

As a father, you have rights. However, the goal of the judicial junta is to deny, and/or otherwise undermine those rights; ie, "rebuttable presumption." You've gotta be prepared.

2) Read books on winning custody. Read only those that work for you.

3) Get connected with a dads support group. This helps you stay focused. It's the most important thing you can do.
a) With networking, your proactive effort becomes leveraged exponentially.
b) Whether you gather or share, information is the a prequisite to constructive action.
c) Hang out with winners. When things heat up, you'll need their support.
d) AVOID losers and "nay-sayers." They'll drag you down.

4) BEWARE of your limitations. Find out what works for you and what doesn't.

You'll never survive if you do this alone. As discussed above, court-appointed professionals are not what they seem. They are wolves in sheep's clothing. They have no conscience.

"Cardinal Rule" No 5....... HIRE THE BEST FATHER FRIENDLY ATTORNEY YOU CAN FIND.

BEWARE OF WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING. BEWARE of attorneys who "claim" to know everything. They talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. Remember, you want results, not a compromise. Take your time. Shop around. Ask hard questions. Make your choice carefully.

Your attorney's specialty should be representing fathers in family court. HE MUST KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT. He should't expect a large retainer. He should tell you his win/loss record as well as your chances of winning. He should tell you his billing policy. He should be well-connected. He should know judges and court-appointed professionals; GAL's, custody evaluators, psychologists, etc.

It's no secret. Attorneys are 99% of the problem. So......

1) Be prepared, well in advance, BEFORE you choose an attorney. Know what to expect.
a) Above all, watch for "RED FLAGS."

2) Your attorney works for you. You must know ahead of time what you want and stick to it.
a) Never allow your attorney to dissuade you from your ultimate goal.
b) Never display "eager-to-deal."
c) Never allow your attorney to drag the process out unnecessarily. For starters, get a trial date set ASAP. Don't haggle over "little things." Stay focused. Keep the pressure on.

Be prepared to tell your attorney everything, especially the truth. Be prepared to follow his advice.

3) NEVER "assume" that your attorney will know everything.
a) Most of your knowledge will come from your support network; ie, experienced fathers who have tenacity and know the ropes.

4) Never expect your attorney to do "everything."
a) Manage your case actively and personally.

5) If your attorney advises you to take the "high road," find another one ASAP.
a) THIS IS WAR!! If you're gonna lose, go down fighting dirty.

6) Find a para-legal who's father friendly, one who's experienced with family law.
a) As you know, some nurses know more than doctors. The same hold true for para-legals and attorneys.
b) Find one you can count on. This is an important Plan B resource.

7) Speaking of Plan B, ALWAYS have a back-up for everything. You never know when you'll need it.
a) If you have doubts, NEVER think twice about getting a second opinion.
b) For that matter, never think twice about getting a different attorney.

8) As things progress, assess your chances of winning; best case versus worst case scenario. BE REALISTIC!!
a) If you you have a "reasonable" chance of winning, then go for it, and go early.
b) If you have "serious" doubts about winning, then settle early. Cut the best deal you can.

9) NEVER expect fairness from your STBX, much less fairness from the Family Court system.
a) Realistically, your chances of winning are 3 in 100.
b) If your ex is a junkie, a < edited >, a 3-time convicted felon, or any combination of the above, she'll win custody 97% of the time. These numbers are realistic.

This gives you some idea of what you're up against. Remember, you are at the mercy of Family Court thugs. The system is designed to degrade you and to bankrupt you. They'll force you spend your money any way they can. Like the "dog" that you are, they have tactics that bring
you to "heel." THEY DON'T LIKE YOU!!

"Cardinal Rule" No 6....... NEVER GIVE, OR SIGN ANYTHING TO YOUR STBX IN ADVANCE

You know your STBX better than anyone. You know what's important to her. You also know her weakness. Between now and trial, you will find that your STBX is "her own favorite charity." Her greed will soon become evident. Learn to exploit that to your advantage. For now, find out
what she wants.

At this stage, your STBX's "wants" are potential bargaining chips that can be exchanged later for things of importance to you, like property division/alimony.

Above all, never give her your children. They are not bargaining chips!! They are non-negotiable!! This is not open for discussion!! Stick to your guns!!

1) NEVER give, nor agree to give, anything to your STBX unless:
a) the judge orders it.
b) you get something of significance in return.
c) you get it in writing.
d) you get it from your attorney.

Remember at this stage, ANY converstion, agreement, or discussion MUST go through your attorney. No matter how much you hurt, never let your STBX back into your comfort zone.

2) Keep a list of everything you give to your STBX. Use items on that list as bargaining chips later on.

During the course of your marriage, giving freely to your wife was second nature. You never thought twice about it. Today however, she is something other than your "wife." Nevertheless, she still expects this "arrangement" of giving to continue. Worse yet, court professionals
think this way too. You've gotta be careful.

For example, if you give her "this" today, tomorrow she'll ask for "that." She'll nickle and dime you for every "little thing," one piece at a time. It'll never end. Before you know it, she'll have all your "bargaining chips" and you'll have nothing. BEWARE of this trap. You need to terminate this practice immediately. There's a time for property division. That time isn't
now. NEVER GIVE YOUR STBX ANYTHING!! Stick to your guns.

Remember, bargaining chips are very important. Individually, they may seem insignificant. Collectively however, and when "cashed in" at the right time, they WILL make a difference. If a bargaining chip has value for her, then it CERTAINLY has "value" for you. Never forget that.

Nevertheless, "IF" you must give her anything, make her sign a receipt for it. Think if it as an "advance" in property settlement. Be sure to list the item's "replacement cost." That receipt is now a bona-fide "document." Use it later as a bargaining chip when you divide community property. When the time is right, you can make her pay dearly for all those "little
things" she took in advance.

"Cardinal Rule" No 7....... YOU FILE FIRST!! This is of the utmost importance.

For starters, you are forever the plaintiff and she's the defendant. That's a good thing. You get the opening shot. You design the playing field. You've got the momentum.

1) The secret is:
a) do not relent.
b) Maintain the upper hand.
c) Set the rules of the game.

Remember, there's no guarantee that you'll prevail on every issue. But it's much better than starting the game on her terms.

2) A good lawyer is essential.

3) It's extremely important to you know want and that you are in a position to direct the outcome.

HOWEVER, file ONLY when you've got a solid game plan, and ONLY when you're ready. In other words, you pick the fight, when and where, on your terms. You want "home court advantage."

Surprise is everything. If you catch her off-guard, your STBX will be playing "catch-up" 'til trial, and beyond. THAT'S THE WHOLE IDEA!! If you're thoroughly prepared, and follow-through on details, she'll never catch up.

Remember, if you get temporary custody at this stage, and if you've done your homework, and if everything goes according to plan, your chances for permanent custody are virtually assured. All this of course, depends on your attorney, your journal, the thoroughness of your strategy/game plan, and your commitment to active case management. Meanwhile.....

Get complete information on your STBX and children: Full names, aliases, maiden and nick names, other names used; dates and places of birth/death; Social Security numbers; Driver's License numbers; etc.

Get every document you can think of. Leave no stone unturned. Some documents will be difficult, if not impossible to get. If/when you get stuck, move on. Do your research well in advance, BEFORE you separate. If you are thorough, you'll reap huge dividends at trial.

Store ALL documents in a safe deposit box in your name only. These include:

1) Tax returns for the last several years.
2) Marriage license; pre-nuptial agreement.
3) Documents from your STBX's previous marriage/divorce.
4) Birth/death certificates.
5) Passports, green cards, immigration documents.
6) DMV record(s); criminal history.
7) Thorough background check on your STBX. Hire a PI if necessary.
School records; college/high school diploma(s); transcript(s).
9) Medical and life insurance policies; will(s).
10) Deeds; titles; leases; contracts.
11) Bank statements; stocks, bonds and securities.
12) Retirement, pension, IRA, 401K, Keogh.
13) Credit report.
14) Family photos; heirlooms.
15) STASH YOUR CASH!!

Make sure you have passwords/access codes to ALL computers, bank accounts, credit cards, etc. Try them out. Make sure they work. Reset computer passwords with new software.

Get the following for your children:

1) Recent photos of your children, in clothes they typically wear.
2) Documentation of their physical descriptions.
3) Social Security, Student Body, and State ID cards.
4) Medical history, related info, and documents.
5) Immunization records.
6) Health history and/or special needs.
7) History of behavioral issues.
History of prescription medication.

CONTACT INFO for STBX and children: friends; extended family; service providers, doctors; school, counselors, day care; etc. If your STBX runs off with your kids, you'll need to track them down.

STBX's previous marriage and children:

1) Is she getting alimony and/or child support? How much? Paid by who?
a) Can she get alimony re-instated from her previous ex?

2) What was the value of her property settlement? What did she bring into your marriage?

3) Were any of her past debts serviced during the course of your marriage?

Remember, issues like these can, and do make a difference in property settlement. More importantly, this info might show "bad faith" or "intent." In other words, is your STBX is using marriage as a means of embezzlement or early retirement? Are you her next target?

STBX's school & job info:

1) Level of education/continuing education.

2) Current level and duration of employment/unemployment/underemployment/non-employment status.
a) Salary history and benefits package.
b) Career path.
c) Job skills.
d) Anticipated raises and/or promotions.
e) Anticipated career/job change.

3) Document willingness, or lack thereof, to become employed, better employed, or otherwise permanently self-sustaining.
a) You want to minimize potential alimony and child support as much as possible.

INVENTORY:

Take inventory of everything you own. List the difference between "cash value" and "replacement cost." There is a difference!! Back-up your written inventory with videos, pictures, and appraisals. Store everything in a safe place.

COMMUNITY ASSETS: Are they greater than you think? Where did it all go?

Before, or during your marriage, did your STBX set up any form of "asset protection" where she is named beneificiary? Remember, assets could be in her name or under an alias. Perhaps a friend, a relative, a bank, or an attorney has assets "buried" for your STBX under an alias, or within a corporation? These are all good places to hide marital assets:

1) Real estate.
2) Stocks, bonds.
3) LLC's, corporations, trusts.
4) Businesses; ventures. partnerships.
5) Off-shore holdings; bank accounts; investments.

WASTING MONEY:

During the course of your marriage, did your STBX, or did your STBX force/insist that you:

1) Give/piss away monies, assets, or property of any kind?
2) Did she waste money on herself? eg: college, clothes, jewelery, or cosmetic surgury?
3) Did she spend money on an outside relationship?
4) Did she waste money on a home business?
5) Did she forge your signature on any checks or documents?
6) Did she waste money on failed drug/alcohol treatment?

Remember, issues like these make a difference in property settlement.

ASSETS:

Make a thorough list of assets, equity, debt, monthly income, and expenses. List everything, including names that appear on each document. Don't forget student loans and day care. Your list must include: current values; dates of acquisition and purchase price; payment and income history (paid by/earned by who?). Your list must be exhaustive!!

Note: Any debt acquired during your marriage is a community debt. A student loan however, is more complicated. In essence, you are taking an "asset" with you and leaving a debt behind. If you anticipate paying child support and/or alimony, you could argue the increased income is a
direct result of this asset. It is therefore simultaneously captured thru the debt, ie; your greater income potential would not be possible without the accompanying debt. Obviously, the other side will argue for higher support and leave you with your mountain of student loan debt
at the same time. In other words, they want it both ways. Chances are,the judge will agree.

Real estate: Purchase price; equity; down payment; mortgage balance; monthly payment; maintenance; improvements; etc. Get your house appraised. Apply for refinancing. The numbers won't be equal. Such differences can be significant in property settlement.

Also include: Vehicles; boats; RV's; condo time shares; business/partnership interests/equity; credit cards; stocks & bonds; bank and investment accounts; jewelry and other items of value; etc.

Don't forget: Debts; gifts; inheritance; any type of "windfall;" lottery winnings; etc.

Meanwhile, STAY FOCUSED FROM THE BEGINNING.

1) DIG IN AND FIGHT DIRTY. THIS IS WAR!! THERE ARE NO RULES!!
a) If you take the "high road," you will lose.
b) If you compromise, you will lose.

2) Once you file, keep the heat on. NEVER let up on your STBX.
a) It's up to you to maintain momentum and keep pressure on your STBX "CONTINUALLY." Your attorney can't possibly do this for you. This is your fight, and yours alone.

3) Filing first sets the tone for the entire process.
a) The chances of winning or losing depends "SIGNIFICANTLY" upon who files first.
b) Filing first gives you distinct advantage. You control the high ground.
c) NEVER compromise your position nor your advantage.

4) As D-Day approaches:
a) Entice your STBX to voluntarily leave, WITHOUT THE KIDS. Bribe her if necessary.
b) While she's gone, clean out the house, take the kids, and file your court documents.

5) The moment D-Day arrives, you become "THE TERMINATOR."
a) You instantly change from Dr Jeckyl to Mr Hyde. No more Mr Nice Guy.
b) NEVER show mercy. Take no prisoners.
c) This is war!! NEVER LOOK BACK!!

6) File your family court documents with the court clerk. Be sure the clerk date-stamps your documents. Then:

7) Go immediately to ex parte.
a) Get a temporary restraining order against your STBX.
b) Get temporary orders for "exclusive occupancy" of your house. That means your STBX gets gets evicted from your marital residence.
c) Get orders granting you temporary sole custody of your kids. Say she is unfit and a risk to the kids due to ___________ (you think of something).
d) Get temporary orders for supervised < parenting time >.
e) Get orders for temporary child support and temporary alimony.

8) Give copies of your restraining order to the school, daycare, your employer, etc.
a) Notify anyone involved with your kids that you have a restraining order against your STBX.

9) Change all locks and alarm codes on your house and car.
a) Change passwords on everything, especially on bank and credit/debit cards. Deny your STBX access to any form of money.

10) Get a vicious dog that barks at your STBX.
a) That'll keep her from snooping around when you're not home.
b) Reward him to reinforce that behavior.

11) Get a new, unpublished phone number. Route all mail to a new PO Box.

12) Have your STBX's mail stopped.
a) Return her unopened mail to sender.

13) Remove your STBX's name from your health, life, vision, and life insurance policies.

14) Remove your STBX's name as beneficary from your retirement accounts.
a) Remove your STBX's name as beneficary from your will.

15) Inform companies with whom you do business that you want new passwords on your accounts; insurance, bank, etc. Instruct them that passwords must be used before releasing information or changing anything.

16) REMOVE ALL cash from joint accounts.
a) Close all joint credit card accounts.
b) If any accounts are in your name, but where she is authorized, cancel her.

17) Remove your name from the title and insurance for any car your STBX drives.
a) Remove her name from the title and insurance for any car you drive.
b) NEVER ALLOW your STBX to drive any car that is in your name.
c) NEVER be responsible for your STBX's driving behavior. From now on, she's a liability.

1 NEVER OFFER your STBX her clothes and/or personal necessities. Wait 'til she asks.
a) Make her sign a receipt for anything she takes. NO EXCEPTIONS!!
b) Store her personal belongings in boxes. Set them on the sidewalk where she can pick them up and leave immediately. More importantly, she'll have no reason to roam through your house.

c) Release her belongings ONLY if she signs a receipt, and ONLY if she has a police escort.

19) File charges and PROSECUTE your STBX for any domestic violence. DO NOT DROP any charges.

20) Inform your employer that you want your calls screened.
a) If your STBX calls, call the police and file a restraining order violation. DON'T EVEN THINK TWICE!!
b) Use your employer's receptionist is a witness.

Do all of the above. Leave no stone unturned. These measures set the tone 'til trial. Cut off your STBX's money and resourses early in the game. Do anything and everything that hinders her bid for custody. THIS IS WAR!! NEVER LOOK BACK!!

MEANWHILE: Focus on the basics. Fine-tune your game plan. Work on strategy. Keep it simple.

Don't forget, ALWAYS HAVE A CONTINGENCY PLAN for everything (Plan B)

Get your financial house in order. Clean out/close out everything, especially joint accounts. Take "convenience" out of purchasing. This includes credit cards, on-line purchasing, and other "lines-of-credit" you've established over time. This vicious cycle must be broken.

Except for essentials, don't buy anything. If you must buy, pay with cash. Pay all bills the old-fashioned way. Write a check and drop it in the mail. Keep a record of bills that get paid.

"IN YOUR NAME ONLY" - Route all mail to a new PO Box. Get a new cell phone. Keep it secure. Use it for "IMPORTANT" business only. Open savings and checking accounts at a different bank. Get a new safe deposit box to store cash, valuables, and documents. Open new Visa & Mastercard accounts. Use them only for "EMERGENCIES." Get a line of credit as large as you can. Rent a storage locker to stash large items of value. Remember your inventory? Manage it closely. Get new passwords for everything, including credit cards, PC, & ATM.

STASH YOUR CASH in your new safe deposit box. Another option is to open a "secured" Visa/Mastercard account. The bank takes $XXXX.00 from one account deposits it in an interest-drawing "trust." Meanwhile, use the credit card as usual up to the secured dollar amount. You can deposit additional funds as they become available. This/these transaction(s)
don't "appear" on bank or credit card statements. There's just less cash in your account.

MOVING ON - Convert what you can to cash. Think, "D-O-W-N-S-I-Z-E." Sell everything. Pay bills and reduce debt as much as possible. Save all receipts and bills of sale. You may need to account for everything later.

THIS MEANS: Cancel subscriptions and non-essential services. Cash in stocks and bonds. Sell the Lexus, the Suburban, the RV, and the boat. Sell your time shares for the condo, jewelery, china, and silverware. Include anything and everything you can think of. That means "boy's
toys" too. You're not gonna have time for them once the proceeding begins.

Before selling your house, convert your equity into cash by refinancing. You're gonna need it. Remember, there's no guarantee that a sale will occur any time soon. For that matter, there's no guarantee you'll get your asking price. Furthermore, with commissions, taxes, fix-up and
misc expenses, your equity could dwindle to something far less than you expected. It's best to cash out while you can.

The idea is to liquidate what you can ahead of time, while you have time. You won't have that luxury later. The time to sell is BEFORE you really have to. If you wait 'til the last minute, you'll be selling at a deep discount.

Keep plenty of cash on hand so there's no paper trail. You'll need this for "emergencies." For starters, earmark $10K for attorney fees and court expenses. Expect to need more later.

YOUR JOB:

Now is a great time to consider career options. They may be offered at work, or you may have to be creative: early retirement; continuing education; sabbatical; voluntarily lay-off/termination. Collect unemployment, severance package, restructure your career path. Do anything to minimize gross pay and maximize time spent getting prepared.

Postpone raises and promotions (if possible). Get your employer to tuck away a percentage of your salary where it can't be touched. Think, "asset protection." The idea is to minimize child support and alimony payments. You can return to your career path when this is over.

You may want to cash out your retirement/401K. Your STBX is gonna get half. You may as well get the other half. Your "rainy day" is here.

I know this sounds like a lot. It is. There's a lot at stake. Remember, the war starts the moment you file. Once you file, all hell's gonna break loose. You'll barely have time to keep up with details that follow, much less play "catch-up" or track down any of the above.

Rule of thumb = Preparation means everything

LOCK AND LOAD!! NEVER GIVE UP!! NEVER LOOK BACK!!
Reply
#30

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

I just saw this post because someone contributed to it recently.

In light of the date of the original post, it may be a little late to be giving advice, as I imagine that things are well underway with your friend's divorce by now. But if I'm wrong and things are still in limbo, here are my two cents.

I am a practicing attorney with family-law experience. Unfortunately, although some of the advice on in this thread is generally wise, the most important aspects of your friend's case will be determined by the laws and procedures applicable in his state. Some of the laws are extremely specific to that jurisdiction. For instance, it matters whether your friend lives in a community-property state or a state in which marital property is divided "equitably." Child support is determined strictly accordingly to mathematical formulas in some states but not in others. In some states, there is a strong custom or rule favoring equal custody of children for both parents, and in some states an equal-custody arrangement greatly reduces or even eliminates the obligation of a bread-winning father to pay child support to the mother for her half of the parenting time. Other states give the mother custody almost by default. The variations in the laws among the several states is quite large, and there is no way to avoid hiring a skillful lawyer who can help your friend formulate the right strategy in his particular jurisdiction. Nobody on this forum can provide that kind of advice without knowing what jurisdiction (and what judge) are involved.

If the jurisdiction is one in which the judge has lots of discretion (and most are that way), then the leanings and approach of that judge to family-law cases is by far the most important factor in your friend's entire case. There is variation from the judge to judge. As an illustration of the breadth of judicial discretion, California law provides as follows: "In an initial custody determination, the trial court has 'the widest discretion to choose a parenting plan that is in the best interest of the child.' . . . It must look to all the circumstances bearing on the best interest of the minor child." In re Marriage of Burgess, 51 Cal.Rptr.2d 444, 449 (Cal. 1996). It is extremely rare for appellate courts to say that trial judges have "the widest discretion." That should give you a sense of how much power the family-law judge has in California over custody arrangements. It is that way in most states.

In light of all this, the best advice I can give you concerns the steps your friend should take to secure the appropriate attorney for his case. First, keep in mind that, among civil litigators, family-law lawyers are close to the bottom of the barrel in the legal community. They are among the most poorly paid, have little prestige as law practitioners, and are generally viewed as people who spend their careers wiping the rear end of society. The best lawyers do not practice family law and recoil at the thought of doing so. And the difference between a good lawyer and a bad one is critical to your friend. I generally do complex civil litigation and have done some family law in a pro bono capacity as favors to people I personally know. I have been surprised at just how bad most family-law lawyers are. Many men (and even some women) get destroyed in court purely because their lawyers were incompetent. Your friend should ask around to find the top three family law firms. If your friend does not have acquaintances who can help him identify the best law firms, he should contact a respected big firm that does litigation in a large city in his state and ask someone at the firm who the top three family-law firms are. If he makes as much money as you have estimated, he'll be able to afford their representation. Don't let him hire a friend of his who happens to be a lawyer.

Second, he should interview the top three firms, outline his objectives, and ask for their opinion about his objectives. He should go with the firm that impresses him as being most capable of achieving his objectives. He should ask the firm to tell him about some of its cases that are similar to his and to describe what results they obtained.

Third, your friend should not be a passive client. Few lawyers care as much about the case as the client does. (Lawyers have many clients and cases.) It is common for lawyers -- especially in lower paying fields like family law -- to coast along and not work the case properly. Rather than passively reassuring himself that he has hired good lawyers, your friend should be actively thinking about ways to help his lawyer, including following up on leads and providing documents. These are the clients who get the most out of their legal representation.
Reply
#31

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

Great post Consul and plutoman! The tips are good and get to the point.

However, I wonder what the tips would be for someone with no kids nor joint assets. With kids the situation has to be more careful, but without....one can freely launch an all out war.

Cattle 5000 Rustlings #RustleHouseRecords #5000Posts
Houston (Montrose), Texas

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Game is the difference between a broke average looking dude in a 2nd tier city turning bad bitch feminists into maids and fucktoys and a well to do lawyer with 50x the dough taking 3 dates to bang broads in philly.
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#32

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

Quote: (10-27-2013 12:52 AM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

Great post Consul and plutoman! The tips are good and get to the point.

However, I wonder what the tips would be for someone with no kids nor joint assets. With kids the situation has to be more careful, but without....one can freely launch an all out war.

Not having any kids greatly simplifies the matter, because child support is by far the most important bargaining chip women have in a divorce, given how frequently they obtain primary physical custody.

There's still no way to avoid hiring a good lawyer if there' s a lot of money or other property at stake. Even if there are no "joint assets" (a phrase that I assume refers to property titled in both the husband's and wife's names), there is virtually no case in which there is no "marital property" (a term that has different meanings from state to state). Some states go so far as to say that a man's education, and hence his future earnings, are "marital property" that must be divided "equitably." Other states do not take such a broad view.

Again, my advice is the same in a simpler case as it is in a complex one: if there is a lot at stake, be sure to hire a top-shelf family-law lawyer and be an involved client.
Reply
#33

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

double post
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#34

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

Quote: (10-26-2013 06:53 PM)puckman Wrote:  

...

Reason #4080 never to get married.
Reply
#35

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

Puckman that's a hell of a list but I think it's too late for this guy? Tuth what happened to your hombre?

Contributor at Return of Kings.  I got banned from twatter, which is run by little bitches and weaklings. You can follow me on Gab.

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#36

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

Quote: (10-27-2013 01:08 AM)Consul Wrote:  

Some states go so far as to say that a man's education, and hence his future earnings, are "marital property" that must be divided "equitably." Other states do not take such a broad view.

Again, my advice is the same in a simpler case as it is in a complex one: if there is a lot at stake, be sure to hire a top-shelf family-law lawyer and be an involved client.

I had my degree, my professional license, and was vested in the pension system, retired and collecting before I ever met my future ex-wife ( I'm not even married.)

Except for child support, I'm assuming it would be very hard for a future bitch to get the pension away from me, yes? Since it was all worked for, earning and distribution started before she ever oozed onto the scene....
Reply
#37

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

Quote: (10-27-2013 01:49 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Quote: (10-27-2013 01:08 AM)Consul Wrote:  

Some states go so far as to say that a man's education, and hence his future earnings, are "marital property" that must be divided "equitably." Other states do not take such a broad view.

Again, my advice is the same in a simpler case as it is in a complex one: if there is a lot at stake, be sure to hire a top-shelf family-law lawyer and be an involved client.

I had my degree, my professional license, and was vested in the pension system, retired and collecting before I ever met my future ex-wife ( I'm not even married.)

Except for child support, I'm assuming it would be very hard for a future bitch to get the pension away from me, yes? Since it was all worked for, earning and distribution started before she ever oozed onto the scene....

Yes, I think that's probably right. Marital property generally does not include property owned or obtained prior to the marriage.

Don't be too confident, however, that your assets or earnings are safe. Even if you didn't marry her at all, you could be required to pay "palimony" to a live-in girlfriend. See Marvin v. Marvin, 557 P.2d 106 (Cal. 1976); Carroll v. Lee, 712 P.2d 923 (Ariz. 1986). Check out the facts of the Marvin and Carroll cases. I guarantee they'll piss you off (links below):

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?q...20&scilh=0

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?q...79&scilh=0

Over 20 states allow a live-in girlfriend (i.e., someone you never married at all) to obtain division of assets from you, i.e., "palimony." So, not getting married is not the panacea that some at the forum think it is. Did you start living with your woman before you got your license or degree, or while you were earning your pension? If so, she could come after you under a theory of "palimony" if you live in a state that recognizes it. (See how creative lawyers can get?)

Even if your state does not allow "palimony," there are ways of getting at your property even if you obtained it before the marriage. Some states require that property owned prior to the marriage not be "commingled" with marital property, or it becomes subject to equitable division. Of course, your degree and professional license cannot be "commingled" property, so your future earnings probably cannot be considered marital property on a "commingling" theory.

As for your pension, it is going to depend on the state whose law governs. You would need to research whether the pre- and post-marriage parts of the pension may be considered "commingled."

You would not believe how many traps there are for men. There are far more traps than most of the guys on this forum have imagined. It is only a slight exaggeration to say that, in family court, there are essentially no firm rules and almost anything could happen. You really do need a good lawyer to navigate these traps.
Reply
#38

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

Quote: (10-27-2013 02:08 AM)Consul Wrote:  

Quote: (10-27-2013 01:49 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Quote: (10-27-2013 01:08 AM)Consul Wrote:  

Some states go so far as to say that a man's education, and hence his future earnings, are "marital property" that must be divided "equitably." Other states do not take such a broad view.

Again, my advice is the same in a simpler case as it is in a complex one: if there is a lot at stake, be sure to hire a top-shelf family-law lawyer and be an involved client.

I had my degree, my professional license, and was vested in the pension system, retired and collecting before I ever met my future ex-wife ( I'm not even married.)

Except for child support, I'm assuming it would be very hard for a future bitch to get the pension away from me, yes? Since it was all worked for, earning and distribution started before she ever oozed onto the scene....

Yes, I think that's probably right. Marital property generally does not include property owned or obtained prior to the marriage.

Don't be too confident, however, that your assets or earnings are safe. Even if you didn't marry her at all, you could be required to pay "palimony" to a live-in girlfriend. See Marvin v. Marvin, 557 P.2d 106 (Cal. 1976); Carroll v. Lee, 712 P.2d 923 (Ariz. 1986). Check out the facts of the Marvin and Carroll cases. I guarantee they'll piss you off (links below):

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?q...20&scilh=0

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?q...79&scilh=0

Over 20 states allow a live-in girlfriend (i.e., someone you never married at all) to obtain support and division of assets from you, i.e., "palimony."
As for your pension, it is going to depend on the state whose law governs. You would need to research whether the pre- and post-marriage parts of the pension may be considered "commingled."

I see what you're pointing out and it's valuable, but I'm not even fucking anyone right now! hahhhaah.

As I said, I'm collecting the pension from past work now.

So if she comes onto the scene in a month and moves in, I guess there's some theoretical way she could claim palimony when I boot her, but it seems unlikely.
Reply
#39

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

Quote:Quote:

Do NOT move out of the house. Married guys often make this mistake, trying to make peace during the separation/divorce, and then find out that the status of the woman living in the house with the child is used against them (so as not to disturb the child's living arrangement).

What if she just goes to the police claiming "emotional abuse" and gets him evicted?

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#40

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

Quote: (10-27-2013 05:57 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

Quote:Quote:

Do NOT move out of the house. Married guys often make this mistake, trying to make peace during the separation/divorce, and then find out that the status of the woman living in the house with the child is used against them (so as not to disturb the child's living arrangement).

What if she just goes to the police claiming "emotional abuse" and gets him evicted?

ride it out until that point
Reply
#41

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

Quote: (10-27-2013 01:47 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Puckman that's a hell of a list but I think it's too late for this guy? Tuth what happened to your hombre?

Probably, but maybe not if the proceedings havent gotten very far, and given the average length of a divorce there is a lot there that he can do to improve his case. I also wanted the info to be in the thread at least for reference in the future when people search for divorce info. Interested too in hearing an update.
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#42

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

Quote: (10-27-2013 01:08 AM)Consul Wrote:  

Quote: (10-27-2013 12:52 AM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

Great post Consul and plutoman! The tips are good and get to the point.

However, I wonder what the tips would be for someone with no kids nor joint assets. With kids the situation has to be more careful, but without....one can freely launch an all out war.

Not having any kids greatly simplifies the matter, because child support is by far the most important bargaining chip women have in a divorce, given how frequently they obtain primary physical custody.

There's still no way to avoid hiring a good lawyer if there' s a lot of money or other property at stake. Even if there are no "joint assets" (a phrase that I assume refers to property titled in both the husband's and wife's names), there is virtually no case in which there is no "marital property" (a term that has different meanings from state to state). Some states go so far as to say that a man's education, and hence his future earnings, are "marital property" that must be divided "equitably." Other states do not take such a broad view.

Again, my advice is the same in a simpler case as it is in a complex one: if there is a lot at stake, be sure to hire a top-shelf family-law lawyer and be an involved client.

Still use this list to build your case. No kids make it easier, but your money is your 'kid' and that is still likely to be taken from you.
Reply
#43

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

Quote: (10-27-2013 01:47 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Puckman that's a hell of a list but I think it's too late for this guy? Tuth what happened to your hombre?

That's a good question. I haven't checked in with him about this lately but, last I heard, they were discussing some sort of out-of-court settlement. Chick seemed amenable to being "fair," but who knows if that's holding up.

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#44

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

The Dads Divorce list that puckman posted should be legendary.

I will now never forget the term STBX, for as long as I live.

Damn. Talk about hard-won knowledge.

If you want to know what makes men and women different, that post is a good place to start. Women don't produce documents of this kind. Men do, when they're at their best. Under combat pressure.

Because this post made me realize that divorce hell is the one way American men today get a taste of war. This is one of the themes of the post and it's not something that can be faked.

Wow.

same old shit, sixes and sevens Shaft...
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#45

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

Quote: (10-27-2013 12:52 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

The Dads Divorce list that puckman posted should be legendary.

It is and I was lucky enough to find it at the outset of mine. I had to direct my lawyer for everything, all based on the strategy I came up with. The results of mine were fair and equitable, and we avoided court. Hearing the tales I do from other men, I was lucky. Divorce literally kills men, and ambivalence is usually the cause.
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#46

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

I don't know how I missed this thread. There is some good information in here, but there are also some things that I disagree with.

If two people are married, have children together, are still living under the same roof, and divorce is inevitable, advising the husband to not move out is just horrible advice. Over the years, I have seen several hundred guys screwed by their refusal to leave the home and take the children with them. First, at least in my jurisdiction, it is extremely difficult (though not impossible) to be granted a divorce while living under the same roof as your spouse. If both parties refuse to vacate the marital home, they may never be able to get divorced and will therefore be stuck being married to and living with a person whom they despise. Second, by continuing to reside in the family home, you leave your nose open for one of two possible scenarios. The first scenario is your wife vacating the family home, taking the children with her, and initiating custody proceedings. She is now in a superior position because the children are living solely with her and she did not kidnap them because she is the children's mother. Your only option at that point would be to file an Emergency Petition seeking that the children be returned to the marital home. Unless there is a history of abuse, neglect, abandonment, and/or serious substance abuse on the part of the wife which can be proven, good luck with the Emergency Petition. Courts are often reluctant to take any action in such a case if the children are living with a parent. Down the road, when a more permanent custody determination is made, the court will likely want to preserve the status quo, which at that point would be the children living with their mother outside of the marital home. My mom took that course of action with me when I was younger and was granted custody of me. By "standing your ground" and refusing to leave the family home, you very likely screw yourself if you seek to be awarded custody in the future. The second scenario is that by continuing to live in the marital home, you run the risk of being hit with a Domestic Violence Petition. If you are hit with such a Petition, the court could order that you vacate the home, that the wife be granted temporary custody, and/or that you pay temporary support which could include, but may not be limited to, paying the entire mortgage or rent while you are residing outside the family home. Such temporary custody Orders which are part of Domestic Violence Orders can drastically affect a permanent custody determination. If you are seeking custody, there is too much risk by continuing to reside under the same roof as your wife.

One downside of vacating the marital home with the children is that it could prejudice you in with regard to fault in the divorce itself and could affect therefore affect the distribution of marital property and other non-custody issues. In my experience, abandonment is a pretty insignificant factor, because in virtually all divorces, one or both parties leaves the marital home and there are two sides to every story. In my opinion, it's not a big deal and if there are children involved, you protect yourself from both having the wife leave the marital home with the children and being hit with a Protective Order.

I can't agree with the advice about taking all the money out of your 401K and/or all joint bank accounts. There is a paper trail as to both of those assets and both parties are entitled to part of those assets if all or part of them are in fact, marital. Take half of those assets or have them frozen. That way, you protect yourself from your spouse taking all of those assets while the divorce is pending, but you also prevent yourself from being accused of dissipating marital assets. If it is proven that you dissipated assets, you will appear dishonest and that could affect your credibility in other aspects of your case. I'm sorry, but taking all the money and running is horrible advice. Protect yourself, keep yourself from having everything taken from you, but don't take what's not yours. Trying to be slick can very often screw you in a divorce case.

By far the best move (besides, of course, never getting married) is while the two of you are still residing under the same roof, negotiating a complete separation agreement which includes custody, child support, alimony, and distribution of marital property provisions. The agreement should clearly state the date, time, and manor by which separation should occur. The husband and wife should (but are not required to) be represented by counsel. The same attorney is prohibited by law to represent both parties (People very often don't understand that. People are idiots). Make sure you get the best attorney possible. Getting even the best attorney to negotiate and prepare a separation agreement will not break the bank. It will be far more expensive to litigate a divorce, especially if there are children involved. Make every effort to enter into an agreement as soon as it becomes inevitable that the marriage is not going to work out.

I don't think shopping around for an attorney is a good idea. When people meet with me, I can very often tell who is shopping around and who isn't. For a family law attorney, your best bet is to talk to as many friends and family members as possible and seek and gather as much information as possible before even calling a lawyer. Does this lawyer return phone calls? Does this lawyer immediately recognize you when he sees you (a very important, yet often overlooked factor)? Did you feel at all ripped off by this lawyer? Was this lawyer accommodating as far as scheduling appointments with you at nighttime? On Saturday? On Sunday? On Christmas Eve? Did this lawyer give you his cell number? Once you get the answers your looking for from friends and/or family members, shopping around becomes moot.
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#47

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

Quote: (10-27-2013 12:58 PM)puckman Wrote:  

Quote: (10-27-2013 12:52 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

The Dads Divorce list that puckman posted should be legendary.

It is and I was lucky enough to find it at the outset of mine. I had to direct my lawyer for everything, all based on the strategy I came up with. The results of mine were fair and equitable, and we avoided court. Hearing the tales I do from other men, I was lucky. Divorce literally kills men, and ambivalence is usually the cause.

I completely agree with puckman that a big reason why so many men get screwed in family court is their own indecision and passivity. In other words, they are beta until the bitter end, and this crushes them even in divorce.

In a divorce, you must be alpha and fight for everything.
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#48

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

Quote: (10-28-2013 10:27 PM)Consul Wrote:  

Quote: (10-27-2013 12:58 PM)puckman Wrote:  

Quote: (10-27-2013 12:52 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

The Dads Divorce list that puckman posted should be legendary.

It is and I was lucky enough to find it at the outset of mine. I had to direct my lawyer for everything, all based on the strategy I came up with. The results of mine were fair and equitable, and we avoided court. Hearing the tales I do from other men, I was lucky. Divorce literally kills men, and ambivalence is usually the cause.

I completely agree with puckman that a big reason why so many men get screwed in family court is their own indecision and passivity. In other words, they are beta until the bitter end, and this crushes them even in divorce.

In a divorce, you must be alpha and fight for everything.

Yeah its the ultimate negative result of beta, and I see these stories all the time. Suicide among recently divorced men is 4X higher than normal rates. Most men dont want to let go, I didnt.
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#49

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

I will post here before maybe starting a new thread.

I got a call this morning from a very good friend. Divorce is on the radar.

Situation:

- Common law (lived together for 7 years)
- Two young daughters
- Owns a house
- Union job
- Pension
- Canada (British Columbia)

Is it fair to say that the advice on here to Americans is pretty much the same as it is for Canadians?

He was baited into a fistfight last night by one of his wifes beta orbiters. Lots of witnesses (he did not throw the first punch, surprisingly). It was a good clean fight with no police or hospital visits despite a broken nose.

She is pushing his buttons and he knows it but is talking like "she would never do anything bad to me".

I broke down the advice from this thread and put it into a word doc and sent it over to him.

This shit sucks.
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#50

Call For Advice: Friend Getting Divorced

So step one file. Where do you file ? Do you talk to a lawyer first or file first.

What if you don't want custody of your kid because you work a lot and the mom doesn't ?

What if you only rent an apartment and don't own anything?

What if you moved out because it was unbearable to live there but still pay the rent because the Mother doesn't work and can't afford to?

What if you don't share a bank account and literally live check to check?

This is the exact situation of one of my buddies. He's lost and needs some advice too.

He currently lives at his moms paying the rent where his wife and son live. But he doesn't even live there.
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