[Excelsior]

This might be a game changer. The perilous economic prospects facing Gen Y have been understood for a while now. The unpaid internship has been central to all of that-young adults today are having a harder time getting stable entry level work and are more likely than previous generations to end up working for free (the "internship").

Now the court system is providing some substantiation for millennial concerns by saying that the whole concept of the unpaid internship may be illegal.

Unpaid No More: Interns Win Major Court Battle

Quote:

A federal court in New York has ruled that a group of interns at Fox Searchlight Pictures should have been paid for their work on the movie Black Swan. The decision may have broad implications for students looking for their first job.

Eric Glatt filed the federal lawsuit against Fox. He says everyone always told him taking an unpaid internship was the way to get his foot in the door in the film industry.

At Fox, he worked as an unpaid accounting clerk, he says — filing, getting signatures, running checks and handling petty cash — but he was working for nothing.

"All these employers who think if they slap the title intern on the job description, suddenly they don't have to pay for it," he says.

Glatt says this week's court ruling finally bursts what he calls the myth that employers are all offering interns great educational opportunities. "Businesses are not running free schools on their work sites," he says. "What they're doing is getting people to do work that their businesses need done."

Tightening Up Regulation

The Department of Labor has set rules for when internships can be unpaid. Other courts have interpreted them to mean that unpaid interns need to be getting more from the company than the company gets from them.

But this week's ruling goes even further, saying that unpaid internships must have an actual educational component independent of school credits or the job experience.

Juno Turner, Glatt's attorney, says the ruling leaves little wiggle room. "I think that many, many internships fall into the category of wage theft and I think that this decision is a blow to that practice."

Fearing A Negative Impact

Northeastern University law professor Roger Abrams calls the decision "extraordinary." It means the good news for young people is that if you are lucky enough to get an internship, now you are also likely to get paid.

But businesses might decide that interns are not worth the expense. "I think it may have a negative impact on this entranceway into a variety of professions and that's what I would be worried about," Abrams says.

It's a worry shared by 19-year-old Juliana Rordorf, a New York University sophomore interning at a small consulting startup this summer. She says it is exactly the type of workplace that might not bother to hire interns if it had to pay; she says the company doesn't need her as much as she needs them.

"I'm getting great connections, I'm able to actually take on real tasks," Rordorf says. "Even being somewhere on time and having a real responsibility ... and I would be concerned that this would take those opportunities away from other kids, or from me in the future."

Besides, Rordorf says, she's also had bad internships but it's easy to quit an unpaid job.

Promoting Equality In The Workplace

Boston University law professor Michael Harper says the idea is not only to stop the exploitation of young people but also to address the unfair advantage that goes to those who can't afford to work for nothing.

"If you were poor you wouldn't have had that opportunity, so another thing these laws do is provide more equality in the workplace," he says.

Fox declined to comment but released a written statement that says the company is disappointed and plans to appeal a court decision it calls "erroneous."

Mark Jaffe of the New York Chamber of Commerce says the decision is already starting to make waves in the business community. "We know there's a lot of businesses out there taking advantage of the internship situation — free labor — but the gig is up. You can't get away with it anymore; somebody's watching and you cannot abuse certain situations," he says.

For his part, former intern Glatt is hoping to move on to see what he'll get in back pay and damages. Glatt could use the money. He has given up on the movie industry and is now in law school.

[Tex Pro]

Unpaid internships always kind of seemed like a scam. I've heard of plenty of cases where unpaid "interns" have been strung along with the potential of a job offer to only have the job offer never materialize. If someone isn't willing to at least pay you something, then they are probably taking advantage of you.

I don't see how this court decision is a bad thing.

[Veloce]

You have no idea what it's been like in the kitchen. It's been a fucking nightmare.

In the kitchen, traditionally it's typical to complete what's called a stage, a French word that basically means "tryout". I've done many. Also, a stage is something you do if you're in a city or country and can only work a few days/weeks/months before having to go back home. It's typical for great American chefs to stage in Michelin starred French restaurants for a few months, snag a few ideas, spend some time with the heavy-hitters, and bring that knowledge and discipline back home.

At least in California, it's now illegal to stage. When I was working at a 1 michelin star restaurant here, we had a constantly revolving door of stages trying out for a position, and very few of them made it. Well, one of these cocksuckers, who to this day I remember his name (he sucked in the kitchen, totally worthless shithead), sued the restaurant for unpaid work, even though it was understood he wasn't going to get paid, but legally he was in the right so the restaurant settled and paid a hefty fine as well.

My gig now, I have to hire people based on their resume and interview and that's it. I'm not allowed to see them cook in the kitchen, they're not allowed to step foot or touch anything until they're on the payroll. There's no tryout or stage anymore because thanks to liberal policymakers in California, it's illegal.

This is exactly like drafting for a baseball team and having to hire a shortstop without EVER SEEING HIM PLAY. It's that retarded. In the kitchen, resumes and interviews don't mean shit; I gotta see the way a cook moves, the way he heats up a pan, dices an onion, how clean he is. The end result is it costs the operation WAY more money because having a revolving door of paid employees is expensive. While I'm training new employees, that means I gotta keep current employees on overtime at 1 1/2 their hourly rate. Thankfully this shit doesn't come out of my pocket, and god help me if I ever open my own restaurant in this stupid fucking state.

I go through about 2.5 employees per month. For a kitchen crew of 16, that's high. If I was able to make cooks stage for a 3-day trial period I guarantee you my turnover would pretty much stop, because I could filter through the knuckleheads and deadbeats before having to commit to anyone.

[Malekhit]

It's exactly like co-op in canada you do shit and you don't get paid and they say its for your own sake and colleges consider it mandatory. So I "did" my co-op in my friends travel agency not working at all there and focusing on another job for these 2 months that were required.
Most people are losers that can't land a job anywhere because a) no people skills b) poor appearance c) not even trying
So far In Canada getting a job that pays 20$ an hour is easy as hell you just need to have that ABC

[Tex Pro]

(06-14-2013 01:56 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

You have no idea what it's been like in the kitchen. It's been a fucking nightmare.

In the kitchen, traditionally it's typical to complete what's called a stage, a French word that basically means "tryout". I've done many. Also, a stage is something you do if you're in a city or country and can only work a few days/weeks/months before having to go back home. It's typical for great American chefs to stage in Michelin starred French restaurants for a few months, snag a few ideas, spend some time with the heavy-hitters, and bring that knowledge and discipline back home.

At least in California, it's now illegal to stage. When I was working at a 1 michelin star restaurant here, we had a constantly revolving door of stages trying out for a position, and very few of them made it. Well, one of these cocksuckers, who to this day I remember his name (he sucked in the kitchen, totally worthless shithead), sued the restaurant for unpaid work, even though it was understood he wasn't going to get paid, but legally he was in the right so the restaurant settled and paid a hefty fine as well.

My gig now, I have to hire people based on their resume and interview and that's it. I'm not allowed to see them cook in the kitchen, they're not allowed to step foot or touch anything until they're on the payroll. There's no tryout or stage anymore because thanks to liberal policymakers in California, it's illegal.

This is exactly like drafting for a baseball team and having to hire a shortstop without EVER SEEING HIM PLAY. It's that retarded. In the kitchen, resumes and interviews don't mean shit; I gotta see the way a cook moves, the way he heats up a pan, dices an onion, how clean he is. The end result is it costs the operation WAY more money because having a revolving door of paid employees is expensive. While I'm training new employees, that means I gotta keep current employees on overtime at 1 1/2 their hourly rate. Thankfully this shit doesn't come out of my pocket, and god help me if I ever open my own restaurant in this stupid fucking state.

I go through about 2.5 employees per month. For a kitchen crew of 16, that's high. If I was able to make cooks stage for a 3-day trial period I guarantee you my turnover would pretty much stop, because I could filter through the knuckleheads and deadbeats before having to commit to anyone.

Who cares????

There are costs to doing business.

The problem is that employers have abused the unpaid "internship" for far too long. The only way I can see an unpaid "internship" being good is if you are training a student in conjunction with a school's apprenticeship program, which is exactly what the court ruled.

[TheSlayer]

I dislike unpaid internships as well. Granted that for someone with no previous job experience they can be good opportunities to network and potentially earn a full-time job. However, I have always felt that at the very least they should be paying you minimum wage. If these large corporations can't even pay minimum wage for internships, that's just exploitation in my opinion. Mind you, this is after North American corporations are sitting on trillions of dollars and profits have been increasing the last 2-3 years after the meltdown of 2008.

In Canada they did a survey and found that companies were hoarding massive amounts of cash. We have had cases with multi-billion dollar profitable companies like Bell and Rogers not paying people for internships. Don't tell me these corporations can't even pay you $10/hour if you are working 40 hours and actually doing meaningful work.

[Laner]

This is always a hot topic in my industry.

In my opinion it is boiling down to people willing to do anything to get their foot in the door. Working for free is just what is has come down to. Traditionally internships were normally paid. Not much, but a living wage at least.

I know of some small firms and studios that have interns built into their business models, meaning that without the constant supply of interns willing to work for free, their profit margins shrink dramatically. I do not think this is right.

I do agree with being able to try someone out before putting them on the payrole, to some extent. The interview process for many jobs is good enough to get an idea of the person, and training can begin after they are hired. I can see how kitchens got screwed over on this regard.

I have hired interns and worked with them. One thing to always be aware of is that interns are supposed to be getting just as much, if not more from the firm, than the firm is from them. Interns should be given the opportunities to work on lots of different projects, with lots of different people. If they are just filing, cleaning, and all that the firm is failing on their part of the understanding.

[Samseau]

This is a terrible decision. If this becomes law then unemployment will go a whole lot higher.

[Veloce]

(06-14-2013 02:05 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

Who cares????

There are costs to doing business.

The problem is that employers have abused the unpaid "internship" for far too long. The only way I can see an unpaid "internship" being good is if you are training a student in conjunction with a school's apprenticeship program, which is exactly what the court ruled.

Who cares about what? Operating within reasonable expenses? You only feel that way because you're not a restaurant operator.

I'm sure many employers have abused the unpaid internship, but that doesn't mean they should be outlawed. At least in the cooking world, cooking school doesn't teach you shit. The real education happens on the line in a busy restaurant. There have been thousands of famous chefs that got to their level because at some point they went through an unpaid internship, and if you ask any of them I guarantee you 100% would consider themselves lucky for the experience.

I can't speak for the finance world or any other industry, but knowledge and experience are more valuable than money in many cases. I could understand some laws placing certain restrictions and parameters on internships, but to outlaw it completely is utterly moronic.

[TheSlayer]

(06-14-2013 02:38 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

This is a terrible decision. If this becomes law then unemployment will go a whole lot higher.

If you are working an unpaid internship are you really employed?

[TheSlayer]

@thedude: I can see your point of view from your industry's perspective. I am talking more about the corporate world.

[Samseau]

(06-14-2013 02:41 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  

(06-14-2013 02:38 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

This is a terrible decision. If this becomes law then unemployment will go a whole lot higher.

If you are working an unpaid internship are you really employed?

Yes. You are also gaining contacts you wouldn't normally have access to.

[bacon]

No one is forcing these interns to work for free they do it under the impression that it is an investment in future earnings because they are able to gain valuable experience.

Jesus how is this exploitation when the interns are wanting to work for free?

[Malekhit]

I agree with the dude I myself worked in the kitchen for long time and I've seen some shit. 3 days try out would be optimal you don't have to pay person for these 3 days but if he works 4th day you have to pay him. In that time you have time to see what that person is all about with no bullshit resume.

It is very difficult for me to even look at resumes because every fucking resume looks the same.... there is no creativity and most people put wall of text like you would care to read it. In eg. I don't give a shit what were your responsibilities in moxies you claim to be a cook great that's done you don't have to tell me what cook does.....

[Veloce]

(06-14-2013 02:38 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

This is a terrible decision. If this becomes law then unemployment will go a whole lot higher.

Exactly. You think outsourcing was bad before? The more restrictions you put on U.S. employers, the more bureaucratic nonsense you impose, the more hoops that have to be jumped through in order to do some fucking business, the worse the big picture becomes. Look, I know there are some corrupt assholes out there that take advantage of people, it's the nature of the game. Companies don't operate on goodwill, they operate on profit. There's a balance to be struck between allowing companies the freedom to operate within reasonable expenses and profits, and making sure that employees are cared for.

If an employee is gleaning knowledge from an employer, knowledge that took the employer years, maybe decades to develop, it's entirely reasonable to treat that knowledge as a commodity in itself and withhold actual pay, until the employee starts making real contributions to the company.

[Tex Pro]

(06-14-2013 02:40 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

(06-14-2013 02:05 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

Who cares????

There are costs to doing business.

The problem is that employers have abused the unpaid "internship" for far too long. The only way I can see an unpaid "internship" being good is if you are training a student in conjunction with a school's apprenticeship program, which is exactly what the court ruled.

Who cares about what? Operating within reasonable expenses? You only feel that way because you're not a restaurant operator.

I'm sure many employers have abused the unpaid internship, but that doesn't mean they should be outlawed. At least in the cooking world, cooking school doesn't teach you shit. The real education happens on the line in a busy restaurant. There have been thousands of famous chefs that got to their level because at some point they went through an unpaid internship, and if you ask any of them I guarantee you 100% would consider themselves lucky for the experience.

I can't speak for the finance world or any other industry, but knowledge and experience are more valuable than money in many cases. I could understand some laws placing certain restrictions and parameters on internships, but to outlaw it completely is utterly moronic.

Operating within "reasonable" expenses is entirely subjective. I am sure the slave owners of the antebellum South considered slavery necessary to operate within "reasonable" expenses. Having to pay someone for their labor is not an unnecessary burden for a business.

Also, the ruling doesn't outlaw unpaid internships, it just places basic restrictions on them.

[TheSlayer]

(06-14-2013 02:43 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(06-14-2013 02:41 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  

(06-14-2013 02:38 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

This is a terrible decision. If this becomes law then unemployment will go a whole lot higher.

If you are working an unpaid internship are you really employed?

Yes. You are also gaining contacts you wouldn't normally have access to.

I agree with that and I did include that point in my first post but if you are working an unpaid internship you are making no money. Might as well be unemployed technically. Also, I am not asking that interns be paid pro-rated full-time salaries and health benefits. Just that they be paid at least the minimum wage if they are doing meaningful work.

I am not saying unpaid internships are completely useless but in the corporate world where it has become a way of hiring free labour, I think they should be paid at least something.

[Timoteo]

I saw a brief segment on The Today Show about how Google pays its summer interns pretty well, depending on their skills. According to the segment, some make around $20,000 for the summer, which is around half what the average person makes per year.

[Tex Pro]

(06-14-2013 02:38 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

This is a terrible decision. If this becomes law then unemployment will go a whole lot higher.

It is already law: this case establishes a precedent in Federal Court for future cases involving unpaid internships. We operate under a common law system in this country.

[TheSlayer]

(06-14-2013 02:45 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

(06-14-2013 02:38 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

This is a terrible decision. If this becomes law then unemployment will go a whole lot higher.

Exactly. You think outsourcing was bad before? The more restrictions you put on U.S. employers, the more bureaucratic nonsense you impose, the more hoops that have to be jumped through in order to do some fucking business, the worse the big picture becomes. Look, I know there are some corrupt assholes out there that take advantage of people, it's the nature of the game. Companies don't operate on goodwill, they operate on profit. There's a balance to be struck between allowing companies the freedom to operate within reasonable expenses and profits, and making sure that employees are cared for.

If an employee is gleaning knowledge from an employer, knowledge that took the employer years, maybe decades to develop, it's entirely reasonable to treat that knowledge as a commodity in itself and withhold actual pay, until the employee starts making real contributions to the company.

I agree with your general premise that in your industry internships are meaningful and helpful to both the parties. My ire is directed towards the corporate world. By the way, eliminating unpaid interns won't lead to outsourcing. Just to be clear, it is the cheap wages in 3rd world nations that have led to outsourcing (and a myriad of other reasons) and will continue to happen until people in those countries accept a fraction of the wages that people in North America expect.

You are mixing two different issues.

[soup]

(06-14-2013 01:25 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

This might be a game changer. The perilous economic prospects facing Gen Y have been understood for a while now. The unpaid internship has been central to all of that-young adults today are having a harder time getting stable entry level work and are more likely than previous generations to end up working for free (the "internship").

Now the court system is providing some substantiation for millennial concerns by saying that the whole concept of the unpaid internship may be illegal.

Unpaid No More: Interns Win Major Court Battle

Quote:

A federal court in New York has ruled that a group of interns at Fox Searchlight Pictures should have been paid for their work on the movie Black Swan. The decision may have broad implications for students looking for their first job.

Eric Glatt filed the federal lawsuit against Fox. He says everyone always told him taking an unpaid internship was the way to get his foot in the door in the film industry.

At Fox, he worked as an unpaid accounting clerk, he says — filing, getting signatures, running checks and handling petty cash — but he was working for nothing.

"All these employers who think if they slap the title intern on the job description, suddenly they don't have to pay for it," he says.

Glatt says this week's court ruling finally bursts what he calls the myth that employers are all offering interns great educational opportunities. "Businesses are not running free schools on their work sites," he says. "What they're doing is getting people to do work that their businesses need done."

Tightening Up Regulation

The Department of Labor has set rules for when internships can be unpaid. Other courts have interpreted them to mean that unpaid interns need to be getting more from the company than the company gets from them.

But this week's ruling goes even further, saying that unpaid internships must have an actual educational component independent of school credits or the job experience.

Juno Turner, Glatt's attorney, says the ruling leaves little wiggle room. "I think that many, many internships fall into the category of wage theft and I think that this decision is a blow to that practice."

Fearing A Negative Impact

Northeastern University law professor Roger Abrams calls the decision "extraordinary." It means the good news for young people is that if you are lucky enough to get an internship, now you are also likely to get paid.

But businesses might decide that interns are not worth the expense. "I think it may have a negative impact on this entranceway into a variety of professions and that's what I would be worried about," Abrams says.

It's a worry shared by 19-year-old Juliana Rordorf, a New York University sophomore interning at a small consulting startup this summer. She says it is exactly the type of workplace that might not bother to hire interns if it had to pay; she says the company doesn't need her as much as she needs them.

"I'm getting great connections, I'm able to actually take on real tasks," Rordorf says. "Even being somewhere on time and having a real responsibility ... and I would be concerned that this would take those opportunities away from other kids, or from me in the future."

Besides, Rordorf says, she's also had bad internships but it's easy to quit an unpaid job.

Promoting Equality In The Workplace

Boston University law professor Michael Harper says the idea is not only to stop the exploitation of young people but also to address the unfair advantage that goes to those who can't afford to work for nothing.

"If you were poor you wouldn't have had that opportunity, so another thing these laws do is provide more equality in the workplace," he says.

Fox declined to comment but released a written statement that says the company is disappointed and plans to appeal a court decision it calls "erroneous."

Mark Jaffe of the New York Chamber of Commerce says the decision is already starting to make waves in the business community. "We know there's a lot of businesses out there taking advantage of the internship situation — free labor — but the gig is up. You can't get away with it anymore; somebody's watching and you cannot abuse certain situations," he says.

For his part, former intern Glatt is hoping to move on to see what he'll get in back pay and damages. Glatt could use the money. He has given up on the movie industry and is now in law school.

I think that most of what constitutes "internships" these days is essentially slave labor.

If I remember correctly from my art history classes, and I might be wrong, real meaningful apprenticeships/internships had the master actually taking the student under his wing and feeding him etc., like during the Renaissance.

[Timoteo]

(06-14-2013 02:40 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

At least in the cooking world, cooking school doesn't teach you shit. The real education happens on the line in a busy restaurant. There have been thousands of famous chefs that got to their level because at some point they went through an unpaid internship, and if you ask any of them I guarantee you 100% would consider themselves lucky for the experience.

I just finished "Kitchen Confidential," and Anthony Bourdain discussed this in regards to a chef named Scott Bryan I believe. He admired the work this guy was doing at his restaurants, and said one of the key differences between Bryan's path and his own was Bryan was willing take low to no paying jobs to learn, while he himself went for the paycheck. Of course, each had different priorities/lifestyles (Bourdain never wanted to own a restaurant, and had a drug habit and a wife to support...hahaha!), but Bryan owned great spots, was a wine aficionado, and crafted menus around the wine. He was able to do what HE wanted to do, and create his own vision because of his experiences working under different chefs, and learning about the business ground up. That's the value of interning - it's an extension of school, which you also don't get paid for.

[Samseau]

If anything, kids should skip school and go straight for unpaid internships.

It's not the companies that are broken, it's the entire system. Our education is a fucking joke, and all our shitty government does is punish business owners.

No surprise America is going bankrupt.

[that guy]

(06-14-2013 02:44 PM)bacon Wrote:  

No one is forcing these interns to work for free they do it under the impression that it is an investment in future earnings because they are able to gain valuable experience.

Jesus how is this exploitation when the interns are wanting to work for free?

Ok but about when the company strings them along for years and when the intern finally realizes that the company has no intention of being hired they leave, only to be replaced with another sucker?

At that point do you think they are being exploited?

Surely for most companies that do unpaid internships would simply paying them minimum wage be that bad? If the industry you are in can't afford to pay out minimum wage for your internship I can't imagine why you would possibly want a career in said industry.

[Samseau]

(06-14-2013 03:17 PM)that guy Wrote:  

(06-14-2013 02:44 PM)bacon Wrote:  

No one is forcing these interns to work for free they do it under the impression that it is an investment in future earnings because they are able to gain valuable experience.

Jesus how is this exploitation when the interns are wanting to work for free?

Ok but about when the company strings them along for years and when the intern finally realizes that the company has no intention of being hired they leave, only to be replaced with another sucker?

At that point do you think they are being exploited?

Surely for most companies that do unpaid internships would simply paying them minimum wage be that bad? If the industry you are in can't afford to pay out minimum wage for your internship I can't imagine why you would possibly want a career in said industry.

Which industry are you talking about? The ones leaving America for foreign shores?