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3000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
#26
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
Robert J. Sawyer wrote a sci-fi series with Jayne's theory as a main factor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWW_Trilogy

It's not Sawyer's best work, but it is pretty good. He takes Jayne's theory and applies it to the Internet.
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#27
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
Ancient people all over the world certainly had a lot more contact with various different gods.

Whether that was due to eating various psychedelic plants, or because they actually could hear those voices "naturally" is still out for debate.
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#28
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
Quote: (06-15-2018 06:44 AM)Mercenary Wrote:  

Ancient people all over the world certainly had a lot more contact with various different gods.

Whether that was due to eating various psychedelic plants, or because they actually could hear those voices "naturally" is still out for debate.

There was some thought-provoking stuff in this thread, shouts out for bumping it back into current times
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#29
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
Kind of strange that people are still high-fiving the thread but the OP's been banned.
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#30
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
Anyone else thinks that the number of schiziophrenics has never been as high as in West in 21st century?
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#31
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
[Image: back-when-schizophrenia.jpg]

How would one cop with reality if not (casually) schizophrenic ?
Being schizo to an extent can be an advantage, like psychopath at work who don't "physically harm" no one but get to the top in no time.

Not being in touch with reality when you go in life is the best way to live a trail of either ultimate love or ultimate hate but nothing in between.
Starmaze had 2 threads about that Polish Seducer (2) who was totality delusional about himself, I'll let you read the impact this had on his life...

Tell them too much, they wouldn't understand; tell them what they know, they would yawn.
They have to move up by responding to challenges, not too easy not too hard, until they paused at what they always think is the end of the road for all time instead of a momentary break in an endless upward spiral
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#32
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
Quote: (06-15-2018 06:44 AM)Mercenary Wrote:  

Ancient people all over the world certainly had a lot more contact with various different gods.

Whether that was due to eating various psychedelic plants, or because they actually could hear those voices "naturally" is still out for debate.

Well these plants are from nature, so in the both cases they had "natural" contact. In any case, I believe that people from antiquity had communication with various kinds of beings, some of them even nudging them in particular direction.
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#33
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
There was a great book a few years back called Toxic Psychiatry by Peter Breggin which was an indictment of Big Pharma treatments for schizophrenia and other mental disorders. I believe his research showed that while there was schizophrenia all over the world, the rate of cure was much higher in other countries where no drugs were involved.

The basic idea was that if people kept loving their friends and family members with these disorders that they straightened out eventually.

Here he talks about dealing with schizos:






What you will notice is that he doesn't talk about drugs or heavy theory when it comes to actually helping people with schizophrenia.

And he doesn't diagnose it as a brain problem.

He diagnoses it as a social problem in the sense that it happens when a person feels they have no social connection anymore and start creating one in their head centered on themselves.

And the solution, which he even seems sheepish to mention, is to love the person suffering, and to try to get their family to offer their support in getting the person back into feeling a member of a family and then society.

None of this came from theory, and he even gives an interesting account of being an untrained volunteer at a psych hospital when he was a teen and seeing the problem instantly.

He also explains how in the past the Quakers had a kind of moral therapy that could help cure people, and how the people of Lapland have almost no schizophrenia because of how they treat sufferers.

That video is actually quite beautiful and worth a listen if you are looking for something deep.


There is an excellent doc called "Didn't You Used to Be RD Laing" about the famous Scottish psychologist, worth a look in full, but for the sake of this post, if you were to watch just from 49:16 to 55:57 for his conversation with Janet, and you can see exactly the kind of approach that Breggin is talking about.






This is also, by the way, a master class on rapport, but if you watch the clip, you see a woman whose family has completely denied the reality of her memories and perceptions, and so she has created her own symbolic way of dealing with it, a sad, solitary universe, and when she looks a Laing at first, you can see that she is wary, and expects nothing but more scorn and denial, and little by little, watching him like a hawk the whole time, you can see her realize someone is listening to her, giving her the benefit of the doubt, and you can see her, at least partially, being healed before your eyes.

A transformation, or at least the start of one.

Anyway, the point is, people get alienated, turn inside themselves and create their own internal societies, and many people in many cultures know how to heal them, although it doesn't really scale, does it?

It is all one on one hourly fee.

Can't just invent a pill and mass market it.

So it is shunned.

But it does say something about human beings, their needs for community, and their capacity for loving one another and healing one another, and how foreign this is to the profit motive of a large corporation.

I am speaking here of one of the aspects of what gets diagnosed as schizophrenia, and it is specifically about a severing of the social ties and the effect it has on an individual.

The business about psychoactive plants as well as a natural communing with the spirits is something else, even though it may get lumped in with the modern alienation sort of schizophrenia.

I think the two are different phenomena, and the second shouldn't be considered the same thing as the first.

People who were shamanic or mystical aren't schizophrenic in the same way as those who are alienated in a profound way, so it isn't accurate to say that in the past there were more schizophrenics as a blanket statement, although it is accurate to say that modern Big Pharma Psychiatry is just as incapable of dealing with one as the other.

“The greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of its parents.”

Carl Jung
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#34
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
I've read Julian Jayes and am familiar with his ideas. His theory of bicameralism is one version of the more generalized concept of the human personality being a system consisting of sub-selves. The is the theory that there is no unified human personality. Rather the human personality consists of semi-autonomous components that network together to create a human personality. Eric Berne (Transactional Analysis) calls these components "ego states". Marvin Minsky (former computer science professor at MIT) calls them "agents". other names used are "agents", "talents", and "sub-personalities". I consider this concept of psychology to be correct, although the details have yet to be worked out. Furthermore, I believe once the neurobiology that correlates with the various sub-components have been identified and correlates established, I believe bio-engineering techniques will be developed that, by modifying these sub-personalities and how they network with each other, human cognitive and behavior performance can be increased. I believe this bio-engineering technique will become to be called "Therapy" in the sense that one does not get therapy, rather one gets therapied, and that the sociopolitical results will be profound.

What I find most significant about Julian Jayes's theory of the bicameralism is that it is, by far, the best explanation for the origin of religion belief and the Abrahamic religions in particular. In short, religious belief in modern humans is a vestigial psychological remnant of the bicameral mind.

A good SF novel that has the general concept of the of the system of sub-selves psychology is Greg Bear's novel "Queen of Angels". I consider this novel to be one of the most brilliant SF novels of the past 30 years.
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#35
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
Shamanistic societies had an interesting treatment of schizo. They simply viewed it as a gift and that person is destined to become a shaman. So it did, he/she put this illness into use for its tribe.
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#36
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
Quote: (06-15-2018 01:40 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

Shamanistic societies had an interesting treatment of schizo. They simply viewed it as a gift and that person is destined to become a shaman. So it did, he/she put this illness into use for its tribe.



There is a documentary film from 2016 about this EXACT topic called "Crazywise"




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#37
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
Quote: (06-15-2018 01:40 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

Shamanistic societies had an interesting treatment of schizo. They simply viewed it as a gift and that person is destined to become a shaman. So it did, he/she put this illness into use for its tribe.

Interesting topic. Here's another thread about this: thread-37821.html
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#38
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
I recall hearing a distinct voice once.

9 years of age while in hospital for a joint injury. Which did not require medication.
I had gone to the toilet & heard what I would describe in hindsight as a feminine / angelic voice call my name. Almost in a lyrical / singing manner.
Distinct enough to make me get up off the toilet.

Thought it was my sister at first, yet the fact that I had gone to the toilet was due to visiting hour being well & truly over.
None of the nurses were paying any attention to me either.
It all would have meant little, yet it allowed me to pay for the hired TV on a trolley which would have been taken away otherwise.

That my family had placed the TV to be shared with the quadriplegic in the bed next to me, meant it benefited him far more than me, as at least I could get up out of bed...
Which gave the whole situation some level of indirect purpose.

Never heard any voices since.
Haven't been sharing any hospital rooms with any quadriplegics on the other hand...
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#39
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
Quote: (06-16-2018 07:24 AM)CynicalContrarian Wrote:  

I recall hearing a distinct voice once.

9 years of age while in hospital for a joint injury. Which did not require medication.
I had gone to the toilet & heard what I would describe in hindsight as a feminine / angelic voice call my name. Almost in a lyrical / singing manner.
Distinct enough to make me get up off the toilet.

Thought it was my sister at first, yet the fact that I had gone to the toilet was due to visiting hour being well & truly over.
None of the nurses were paying any attention to me either.
It all would have meant little, yet it allowed me to pay for the hired TV on a trolley which would have been taken away otherwise.

That my family had placed the TV to be shared with the quadriplegic in the bed next to me, meant it benefited him far more than me, as at least I could get up out of bed...
Which gave the whole situation some level of indirect purpose.

Never heard any voices since.
Haven't been sharing any hospital rooms with any quadriplegics on the other hand...

You just took the thread in a much more interesting direction. I would wager that many many more people than you think have heard a voice in their lives.

And that is where it gets dicey.

Modern psychiatry has no idea how to deal with the issue.

Most people wouldn't be honest about it because they know that hearing a voice is a symptom of being crazy, so there is a lot of personal experience out there that will never be shared.

There is an old saying that it isn't crazy to speak to God but it is if he answers you.

The psychologist in one of the vids I posted above, R.D. Laing, has made the point that really nailing down what this means is work that hasn't been done yet.

His example is that it says in the DSM that if your wife dies, and you hear her voice after she dies, you are not crazy, but only for five days, and after that you can be diagnosed.

That primitivity is the standard view, and you don't need to be hearing voices yourself to know that it is crazy.

My question for you, CC, is, has this experience changed your life in any significant way? Like spiritually?

And the point probably should be that we shouldn't look at hearing a voice as an absolute heuristic denoting madness. It obviously isn't, or you would have to cart away anyone who ever heard God answer their prayer.

And then there is also the whole issue of hearing non-auditory voices, as in, voices you only hear in your head like thoughts but that you don't recognize as your own thoughts.

It seems like everyone has had that experience at one time or another.

So, anyone else heard any voices?

It might be that we have just as many schizophrenics now as then, we just don't talk about it.

“The greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of its parents.”

Carl Jung
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#40
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
Quote:debeguiled Wrote:

There was a great book a few years back called Toxic Psychiatry by Peter Breggin which was an indictment of Big Pharma treatments for schizophrenia and other mental disorders. I believe his research showed that while there was schizophrenia all over the world, the rate of cure was much higher in other countries where no drugs were involved.

The basic idea was that if people kept loving their friends and family members with these disorders that they straightened out eventually.


The most important thing is the 'self'. But when that fails the next most important thing is family. After that comes true friends. People who lose their 'self' and have no family or true friends are up the Swanee without a paddling device.

(I use the term 'self' not in the wider sense that Jung proposed, but in its more looser definition)

R.D. Laing who you mention later in this post wrote a book called the Divided Self. He lays blame for much of manifested schizophrenia on the family unit. I'm pretty sure he would extend that out to extended family and close friends (who ain't no good for ya).

For family can literally drive you crazy, and sometimes they do. But when things break for other reasons, it is the family unit and close real friends that can bring you back. I'm not surprised that people got healed back to health with time, with love and attention from family and friends. The most powerful thing in this universe. Without them, you are basically fucked. No man is an island. Though he should try to be as much as he can. Reading what Kai said earlier: your first duty is to yourself, then your family (I paraphrase). This.

A maybe interesting aside: how people with SPD (Schizoid - one of the Cluster A personality disorders) - well they do try to become an island. They become fiercely independent to the point of shunning not just all of society but close friendships, friendships of any kind, sexual relationships and sometimes even family. One wrote on being Schizoid: "having to pretend to cry at my brother's funeral so the rest of my family didn't think I was a monster".

People with Cluster A disorders are by far the hardest to reach, even more than Cluster B narcs and BPD's. Schizophrenics can be treated with medication and if the family was not the cause of the madness, then family and friends. But Schizoids are not technically disordered because that is just their personal choice in life. Many of them debate that it should not be in the DSM as a disorder because it actually does not meet the criteria for things such as personal unhappiness (they are not unhappy), being disordered and dependent (they are fiercely independent and very ordered and methodical), causing disruption to others (very often they do not leave the house), being unable to function in a social or work setting (many are the life and soul of the party and hold down steady jobs. Life and soul of the party because they have no problem interacting, but they are not overbearing or clingy and people sense this aloofness and it attracts people like magnets. Many people want to get to know the Schizoid more for his quiet charisma, but he isn't interested. He holds down a job because he is highly responsible and conscientious. It is his life support system for personal survival. He won't fuck it up. He will quietly shine, usually in a job that requires isolation: a lighthouse keeper - no pun intended - or perhaps even in the military working in cybersecurity).

Schizoids do not have a disconnect from reality in the form of hearing voices or visual hallucinations, but they do have a disconnect in the sense that they choose not to engage with reality, by withdrawing and becoming a hermit or perhaps chronic daydreaming. A subtle but important distinction. Some even talk to themselves. But they do not do this around others, because they have the presence of mind to know they will be seen as odd, if not mad.

Many believe the full on Schizoid to be the ultimate narcissist. But it's a different thing, though they can be co-morbid with narcissism. Again, it's a spectrum, complicated by secondary and tertiary defining characteristics. We are just generalizing here and it really comes down to the individual and how well they are diagnosed and how much they allow themselves to be diagnosed. Schizoids are notoriously under the radar in psych therapy. One guy in the military was about to get a Schizoid diagnosis, but said he didn't want it to his psychiatrist because it would mess up his security levels and complicate things. So technically he was not professionally diagnosed. Many just don't see it as a problem. It's just the 'way they are', and they don't really care what anyone else thinks.

Getting back to what you said about "friends and family members". The Schizoid is very unlike the Schizophrenic, because he is not ill. He will never seek treatment. He will be so fully functional in all the areas that matter that most people won't even know his 'disorder'. He has no need for family or friendship apart from doing the right thing for those who he deems to give his limited time and respect to. He certainly doesn't know there is something wrong with him and he never cries out for help - that would just be drawing unwanted attention to himself.

Excuse my discursion in to Schizoids, but they are Cluster A like our mentioned Schizophrenics, yet very very much distinct from them in so many ways. We won't get in to Schizotypal Personality Disorder (unless you want to later), as that as well, is also a very discrete form of Cluster A typology. And of course these things can overlap as well which totally confuses the issue. But first you have to understand the issue: these are all very disparate disorders underneath this umbrella.



Quote:debeguiled Wrote:

What you will notice is that he doesn't talk about drugs or heavy theory when it comes to actually helping people with schizophrenia.

And he doesn't diagnose it as a brain problem.

He diagnoses it as a social problem in the sense that it happens when a person feels they have no social connection anymore and start creating one in their head centered on themselves.

And the solution, which he even seems sheepish to mention, is to love the person suffering, and to try to get their family to offer their support in getting the person back into feeling a member of a family and then society.

None of this came from theory, and he even gives an interesting account of being an untrained volunteer at a psych hospital when he was a teen and seeing the problem instantly.

He also explains how in the past the Quakers had a kind of moral therapy that could help cure people, and how the people of Lapland have almost no schizophrenia because of how they treat sufferers.

That video is actually quite beautiful and worth a listen if you are looking for something deep.


Good information. I will check it out. However, from your lucid description none of this comes as a surprise to me (or probably other members of the centuries old Anti-psychiatry movement). Talking of which, and talking of rapport with one's therapist...



Quote:debeguiled Wrote:

There is an excellent doc called "Didn't You Used to Be RD Laing" about the famous Scottish psychologist, worth a look in full, but for the sake of this post, if you were to watch just from 49:16 to 55:57 for his conversation with Janet, and you can see exactly the kind of approach that Breggin is talking about.


I've watched this many times. It's enlightening. Laing was a bit of a fruitcake, probably a bit of a charlatan and egotist too. But he played a tidy piano and at least pretended as if he gave a fuck. Fake it to make it baby. If I could get someone of the caliber of Laing, I'd jump at it. But I know that motherfucker would brutalize me! As long as he didn't make me listen to his piano playing...



Quote:debeguiled Wrote:

This is also, by the way, a master class on rapport, but if you watch the clip, you see a woman whose family has completely denied the reality of her memories and perceptions, and so she has created her own symbolic way of dealing with it, a sad, solitary universe, and when she looks a Laing at first, you can see that she is wary, and expects nothing but more scorn and denial, and little by little, watching him like a hawk the whole time, you can see her realize someone is listening to her, giving her the benefit of the doubt, and you can see her, at least partially, being healed before your eyes.

A transformation, or at least the start of one.


I was talking about rapport a couple of days ago in the community, with a really great professional psychotherapist/psychiatrist this time.

I think it's well recognized that it is probably one of the most important factors to a therapeutic relationship working. The anti-psychiatrists had a bit of a bug-bear about the inequality of the 'doctor/patient' relationship. And it's true. It's a mighty imbalance. It gives way to all kinds of subtle and not so subtle abuse, even leading sometimes to full on iatrogenic breakdowns on the part of the patient because of this fact. I have experienced this myself. There is no recourse. Therapists are not held accountable. They are above the law. They can get away with anything bar murder or rape. For another time.

You use the word 'transformation'. It's a good word. It probably means different things to different people. We can also get in to words like 'transmutation' and 'transference'. Kind of related. But we'd need to get into alchemy, for one. Again, maybe another time.



Quote:debeguiled Wrote:

Anyway, the point is, people get alienated, turn inside themselves and create their own internal societies, and many people in many cultures know how to heal them, although it doesn't really scale, does it?

It is all one on one hourly fee.

Can't just invent a pill and mass market it.

So it is shunned.

But it does say something about human beings, their needs for community, and their capacity for loving one another and healing one another, and how foreign this is to the profit motive of a large corporation.

I am speaking here of one of the aspects of what gets diagnosed as schizophrenia, and it is specifically about a severing of the social ties and the effect it has on an individual.


You speak much sense and wisdom. I don't think it's even far off the current prevailing thought on the matter. I would say though that Schizophrenia itself is still quite a mystery with regard to the whole nature/nurture debate. There does seem to be significant evidence for it being an imbalance in brain chemicals and whatnot - no societal/familial dysfunction required. Some say it is a mixture. Don't quote me on this, just my very limited understanding as a layman. I know the grown-ups on this matter keep tossing the ball back and fore. I'll defer to their indecision.

But there does seem to be something about Schizophrenia where the brain breaks in a very real and dangerous way. I recently watched a very good video on some myths about this condition and I was enlightened. I have great respect for the professionals that do this day in day out, hacking it out. Always more to learn.

As for human beings and their need for community and friendship and belonging, well that is very true as well. It's hard not being part of a community. It's hard not having a tribe. It's hard not having any family. It's hard not having any friends. It's hard not having a job. It's hard not having any reflected self-worth that mirrors who we are at our deepest core. And it's hard not having a girlfriend or meaningful LTR for years and years and years. I know this feeling.

We are drowning men. No therapy session will ever heal us. Not even if we found one we could afford. One we could have rapport in. No, it's gone past the point of no return for men like us. We aren't waving, we are drowning. We aren't going our own way. We have been pushed out and ostracized and shunned. It's ok. No drowning man resents this. It's not personal. There is nothing to be gained by trying to help him. The die is cast.

All one can do is become a shaman on the edge of town. Become the archetype of the Wise Man. But as anyone who has studied Jung and the archetypes knows, it's not so clever to dwell on this and internalize this too much. We are hermits not through choice. It smacks of rationalization after the event to me. I say this wisely, of course.

Talking of shamans...



Quote:debeguiled Wrote:

The business about psychoactive plants as well as a natural communing with the spirits is something else, even though it may get lumped in with the modern alienation sort of schizophrenia.

I think the two are different phenomena, and the second shouldn't be considered the same thing as the first.

People who were shamanic or mystical aren't schizophrenic in the same way as those who are alienated in a profound way, so it isn't accurate to say that in the past there were more schizophrenics as a blanket statement, although it is accurate to say that modern Big Pharma Psychiatry is just as incapable of dealing with one as the other.


You are right again. Enforced alienation can lead to deep wisdom. But it is not the wisdom of Jesus who spent 40 days and nights in the wilderness. But is it really all so different? I have had my nigredo. I am well on the path to discovering the philosopher's stone. And a million miles away from ever achieving it. It's the journey baby, not the destination. All the stages in between. I don't know Jesus that well, so I can't say what his personal journey was. Or even what the translation or description of his journey meant in the Bible. I'm sure it's in there somewhere.

Jesus, Buddha, Shaman, Madman. Alchemist? There is much seeking to be done.

There is a connection between what happens in Schizophrenia and what happens when you take LSD or 'shrooms. I've had the most wonderful archetypal religious experience on 'shrooms. I won't go in to it. In fact, I've had two. I had the Christian religious experience and I had the Buddhist religious experience. I'll just say that. I might have even had a third one. But it's possible I was just imagining that one. (It was still cool though, rolling around on the floor thinking I was a dog, with my best mate rubbing my belly till I couldn't howl no more.)

Does the dog have a Buddha nature? On the internet...

Psychosis and Insanity both dance hand in hand on the dance floor of consciousness. Enlightenment? No, that's not it either. I'm sure the answer will just be plucked out of the quantum vacuum space somehow. Where particles just appear out of nowhere then as quickly disappear. In the Heart Sutra they say "Form is emptiness, emptiness is form". Jesus, what if they are right?

Fuck it, just take more drugs!

Drugs are for losers, mmmmkay! But now and again, rites of passage (see the ayahuasca ceremonies where whole communities come together to not just heal, but to shoot the shit and bond), in the right place at the right time, they can be healers. Going out clubbing and dropping E's every weekend is a stealer of time. It probably won't kill you, but it will still fuck you up in other ways long term.

I believe there is much more work to be done in this field regarding entheogens and empathogens. But that work is being done and today the cutting edge consensus is that stuff like MDMA and even Ketamine (apart from LSD and shrooms which have been proven to be efficative for some years now) are beneficial in the treatment of long term alcohol addiction not to mention chronic PTSD. The reluctance of the government and the pharmaceutical industry though needs no explaining to anyone reading this right now I'm sure.

But there is no doubt people who have suffered chronic and profound isolation can be great healers. They will either have gone totally mad or found some kind of peace. They will have found out who they truly are, when every day they wake up and look in the mirror they ask 'Who am I?'. And the question is answered. And one day it is 'you are a good man', and the next day it is 'you are a bad man'. I've found the most deepest evil and darkest shadow at the core of my 'soul'. But as Jung said, when you meet with the shadow, get to know it, then you can recognize it, compartmentalize it and even utilize it. Or was that Jordan Peterson, bucko?

I believe this is why some Catholic priests crack after years of abstinence and start raping all the altar boys. They have never become one or even said 'hello' to the shadow.

Next thing you know, you're on Craggy Island, drinking another fucking cup of tea you don't want, doing Elvis impersonations and shouting "MORE DRANK" after pissing yourself on the sofa!

It's a fine line.

Shadow obsession and possession is never healthy, of course. But not even knowing it exists is far worse. I meet my shadow like an old friend. Then I go on my way.

Bucko!
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#41
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
Quote:debeguiled Wrote:

So, anyone else heard any voices?

It might be that we have just as many schizophrenics now as then, we just don't talk about it.

In for a penny, in for a pound...

I have only ever heard 'voices' one time in my life only. Fortunately for me, another person heard that voice too. Unfortunately for him, it was his voice, but he didn't speak it.

We both heard the same voice. It was my brother's voice. We had a very deep psychic bond (even if he was Schizoid).

I've actually documented this before on the Deep forum I think, but let me dredge it up one more time from memory.

I was playing music very loud being an arsehole. My brother was annoyed with me. Then all of a sudden I hear this loud shout with him shouting at the top of his voice in anger "Rigsby". I turn my music off, knowing that he's going to be calling me out for being a selfish prick. I say "yeah, what do you want?".

He stands at the bottom of the stairs, just looking up at me. He says nothing. After a short pause, he says "I heard it too".

I get serious goosebumps. I know something isn't right here. We've had paranormal experiences before in this house (which I also documented in that thread if you can find it). My blood runs cold. There is no more anger. Just fear now. We have both come in to contact with something 'higher' or is that 'lower'?

"I thought you called me", I say, hoping that I'm just reading the vibe wrong.

"I didn't say anything", he says to me, stunned look on his face.

"But you called me".

"I know, it was my voice, I heard it, but I didn't say anything".

I was going to go back to being a prick and turning the music back up before I went out, but I didn't. I'll never forget that experience.

My brother was a hardcore atheist. Super militant. Didn't even believe in ghosts. Well, except the ones he'd seen with his own eyes. If someone would have told him a cock and bull story like this he would have either thought they were lying or just mad. The most cynical person in the world. With no ulterior motives.

We had a few experiences like that in that house. Bad things happened there. Children died. You could hear them walking around at night. Always when the light went off. It didn't take long. 5 minutes. The floorboards started to creak. They never creaked with the light on.

I believe in Telekinesis. I believe in Telepathy. There are some experiments that go some way to maybe not proving it, but just showing there may be more there. I don't want to get too off thread (sorry).



Getting back to the madman/shaman kind of thing. I saw a very interesting video about a boy with quite severe autism. His relationship with animals is quite something. It's not the first time it's been observed, but still, it's something to behold. I'm being crass here and not trying to draw any kind of parallel between autistic kids or 'madmen' or 'shamen'. You know.

The son of one of my ex girlfriends was very autistic. He could catch flies and grasshoppers and was just generally on another level. This is for feeding his pet spiders and lizards. He also commanded a few very extremely vicious wolf hounds that would obey his every hand gesture. He had no fear of them at all. I did. They knew this.

He would calm those dogs in an almost magical manner. And I'm talking maladjusted vicious dogs from bad homes. Real psychos. Personally, I don't think a young child should have been around them. Well, he grew up, not a bite! So what do I know?

Absolutely no fear at all.

Was he mad? No. Very autistic? Yes.

I got sent a photo of him recently now that he has grown up (no dog bites). He looks the twin of Barron Trump, I shit you not.


Here is the video of that other autistic kid:

Autism, Shamans and Alternate Reality Spaces






Definitely worth a watch.



Quote:debeguiled Wrote:

Ninety percent of this is psycho bullshit, I realize.

I bloody hope so!
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#42
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
Quote: (06-16-2018 07:19 PM)Rigsby Wrote:  

We had a few experiences like that in that house. Bad things happened there. Children died. You could hear them walking around at night. Always when the light went off. It didn't take long. 5 minutes. The floorboards started to creak. They never creaked with the light on.

I believe in Telekinesis. I believe in Telepathy. There are some experiments that go some way to maybe not proving it, but just showing there may be more there. I don't want to get too off thread (sorry).

I don't believe in the ghosts in the classical sense like they are portrayed in the movies, souls have nothing to do with them. To me these events sound like typical remnant energies going through the loop. Do they sometimes manifest as apparitions or you just can hear them? If you can see them sometimes, note the conditions of the seeing, is it damp, are you under stress or hungry, etc. They all contribute to these experiences.

Anyway I am not going to off topic much, but I couldn't help but to address this, it is an interesting topic to me.

P.S.
Have you heard of Colin Bennet by any chance?
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#43
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
Quote: (06-16-2018 12:44 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

My question for you, CC, is, has this experience changed your life in any significant way? Like spiritually?


Probably cause I can't really quantify the instance, & I was rather young, it's only ever been a curious moment more than anything else.

Even though my family has never been the church going type, I've always had a Christian mindset, even as a kid.
So the moment wasn't a complete oddity.
From my perspective, I know it happened. Yet it never amounted to any significant events, revelations or anything "spectacular".

Now as an adult, I simply take it that I was a brief & momentary vessel to ease the boredom of the quadriplegic guy. Even if it was just with a TV.
He needed whatever help he could get far more than I did.
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#44
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
Quote: (06-17-2018 01:12 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

Quote: (06-16-2018 07:19 PM)Rigsby Wrote:  

We had a few experiences like that in that house. Bad things happened there. Children died. You could hear them walking around at night. Always when the light went off. It didn't take long. 5 minutes. The floorboards started to creak. They never creaked with the light on.

I believe in Telekinesis. I believe in Telepathy. There are some experiments that go some way to maybe not proving it, but just showing there may be more there. I don't want to get too off thread (sorry).

I don't believe in the ghosts in the classical sense like they are portrayed in the movies, souls have nothing to do with them. To me these events sound like typical remnant energies going through the loop. Do they sometimes manifest as apparitions or you just can hear them? If you can see them sometimes, note the conditions of the seeing, is it damp, are you under stress or hungry, etc. They all contribute to these experiences.

Anyway I am not going to off topic much, but I couldn't help but to address this, it is an interesting topic to me.

P.S.
Have you heard of Colin Bennet by any chance?

It's indeed strange how many, if not all, cultures have some mythology about the existence of ghosts.
I have heard ghost stories from people ranging from atheists to you name it religions. Some say it is, like you said, stuck up energy going through a loop.

I don't think science has even gotten an explanation for astral projection, one which countless of people have said to experience.

(Fun fact, it's declassified that CIA spent years funding and researching astral projection, telepathy, and other psychic phenomena.
But don't worry troglodytes, there's no spiritual things. Just take your soy latte , microchip and the latest "there is no god" videos from our new controlled scientists !)
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#45
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
Quote: (06-17-2018 04:26 PM)loremipsum Wrote:  

Quote: (06-17-2018 01:12 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

Quote: (06-16-2018 07:19 PM)Rigsby Wrote:  

We had a few experiences like that in that house. Bad things happened there. Children died. You could hear them walking around at night. Always when the light went off. It didn't take long. 5 minutes. The floorboards started to creak. They never creaked with the light on.

I believe in Telekinesis. I believe in Telepathy. There are some experiments that go some way to maybe not proving it, but just showing there may be more there. I don't want to get too off thread (sorry).

I don't believe in the ghosts in the classical sense like they are portrayed in the movies, souls have nothing to do with them. To me these events sound like typical remnant energies going through the loop. Do they sometimes manifest as apparitions or you just can hear them? If you can see them sometimes, note the conditions of the seeing, is it damp, are you under stress or hungry, etc. They all contribute to these experiences.

Anyway I am not going to off topic much, but I couldn't help but to address this, it is an interesting topic to me.

P.S.
Have you heard of Colin Bennet by any chance?

It's indeed strange how many, if not all, cultures have some mythology about the existence of ghosts.
I have heard ghost stories from people ranging from atheists to you name it religions. Some say it is, like you said, stuck up energy going through a loop.

I don't think science has even gotten an explanation for astral projection, one which countless of people have said to experience.

(Fun fact, it's declassified that CIA spent years funding and researching astral projection, telepathy, and other psychic phenomena.
But don't worry troglodytes, there's no spiritual things. Just take your soy latte , microchip and the latest "there is no god" videos from our new controlled scientists !)

Yes, and the system of sub-selves concept of human personality (of which Jaynes Bicamerail mind is an example of) can explain all of this phenomenon. Ancient, and primitive, peoples "speak to the gods" because it is the different subselves speaking to each other as if they were distinct individuals. Such is the explanation for "possession" which is when an ego-state or sub-personality that is normally not in control gains control over the usual dominant sub-personality. Schizophrenia is also likely explainable by this paradigm.

The problem is that we currently do not have a truly scientific concept of psychology (because we still lack an understanding of neurobiology) that has allowed charatans and con-men through out history to involve themselves in and to dominate the fields of psychology or psychiatry. Perhaps we will have a truly scientific bases of psychology by, say, around 2047.
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#46
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
Quote: (06-17-2018 04:26 PM)loremipsum Wrote:  

It's indeed strange how many, if not all, cultures have some mythology about the existence of ghosts.
I have heard ghost stories from people ranging from atheists to you name it religions. Some say it is, like you said, stuck up energy going through a loop.

I don't think science has even gotten an explanation for astral projection, one which countless of people have said to experience.

(Fun fact, it's declassified that CIA spent years funding and researching astral projection, telepathy, and other psychic phenomena.
But don't worry troglodytes, there's no spiritual things. Just take your soy latte , microchip and the latest "there is no god" videos from our new controlled scientists !)

Ghosts don't care if you are an atheist or not. If the conditions are met, you will experience something. I talked in length about this phenomena with one real local yogi, whose experiences and wisdom were sometimes eye opening. In any case, he strictly discourages notion of "remnant souls" because he uses eastern concepts where soul is not part of you but you are part of soul. Soul is the passive element of Creation and in order to experience world it needs to gather particles of which particular world is made of. Because of this, what happens here is not simply related to it.
It is funny but Buddha could as well be regarded as quantum physicist of the antiquity. His concepts described in various sutras, such as Surangama are our modern understandings but using different expressions and language. It all has to do with dimensions, frequencies, energies and what not (if translated to modern terms).
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#47
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
Quote: (06-17-2018 05:50 PM)Abelard Lindsey Wrote:  

Quote: (06-17-2018 04:26 PM)loremipsum Wrote:  

Quote: (06-17-2018 01:12 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

Quote: (06-16-2018 07:19 PM)Rigsby Wrote:  

We had a few experiences like that in that house. Bad things happened there. Children died. You could hear them walking around at night. Always when the light went off. It didn't take long. 5 minutes. The floorboards started to creak. They never creaked with the light on.

I believe in Telekinesis. I believe in Telepathy. There are some experiments that go some way to maybe not proving it, but just showing there may be more there. I don't want to get too off thread (sorry).

I don't believe in the ghosts in the classical sense like they are portrayed in the movies, souls have nothing to do with them. To me these events sound like typical remnant energies going through the loop. Do they sometimes manifest as apparitions or you just can hear them? If you can see them sometimes, note the conditions of the seeing, is it damp, are you under stress or hungry, etc. They all contribute to these experiences.

Anyway I am not going to off topic much, but I couldn't help but to address this, it is an interesting topic to me.

P.S.
Have you heard of Colin Bennet by any chance?

It's indeed strange how many, if not all, cultures have some mythology about the existence of ghosts.
I have heard ghost stories from people ranging from atheists to you name it religions. Some say it is, like you said, stuck up energy going through a loop.

I don't think science has even gotten an explanation for astral projection, one which countless of people have said to experience.

(Fun fact, it's declassified that CIA spent years funding and researching astral projection, telepathy, and other psychic phenomena.
But don't worry troglodytes, there's no spiritual things. Just take your soy latte , microchip and the latest "there is no god" videos from our new controlled scientists !)

Yes, and the system of sub-selves concept of human personality (of which Jaynes Bicamerail mind is an example of) can explain all of this phenomenon. Ancient, and primitive, peoples "speak to the gods" because it is the different subselves speaking to each other as if they were distinct individuals. Such is the explanation for "possession" which is when an ego-state or sub-personality that is normally not in control gains control over the usual dominant sub-personality. Schizophrenia is also likely explainable by this paradigm.

The problem is that we currently do not have a truly scientific concept of psychology (because we still lack an understanding of neurobiology) that has allowed charatans and con-men through out history to involve themselves in and to dominate the fields of psychology or psychiatry. Perhaps we will have a truly scientific bases of psychology by, say, around 2047.

How do you explain people having out of body experienced and seeing the room as if they really saw it, with their eyes closed and all decoration in same spot?
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#48
000 years ago everyone had schizophrenia
I know a few schizophrenics. It's a tough call really. I want to believe that these mystical eastern countries or unsettled shitholes have the magical solution to cure schizophrenia or however it works but doubt it's the case.

Without medical intervention it's likely they're still suffering massive cell die-off in the brain and and are in the throes of delusions or hallucinations. None of that shit just goes away by singing kumbaya and hugging it out. With rapid frequent relapses it's more likely they're going to die of dementia or alzheimer's in their forties, or at the least have permanent shrinking to vital areas of the brain and cognitive impairment. If they're lucky they just have an isolated full psychotic break with no comorbid mental illness (so they can enjoy the privilege of shamhood without the problem of chronic lifelong illness), which is possible as psychosis is not an illness in itself but a symptom of an illness. Lack of sleep or extreme stress can cause psychosis, etc. Sometimes it can just erupt unexplained and leave just as suddenly.

Untreated schizophrenics don't make it very long without society intervening in some way, either by getting murdered or arrested or put into treatment, or drinking themselves to death to quiet the voices, or dying from exposure due to homelessness, or occasionally murdering somebody because God told them it would stop aliens from invading. Finding a control group for this is kind of a problem because of that.

In terms of evopsych, this is something I think about a lot at work. It makes no sense that this disease would survive to modern day as well as it has. It's not unlikely that if the world simply fucked off that 2/3 of schizophrenics would just plain get better, shamanistic village cult or no. You can believe horribly fucked up delusions or see shadow people chasing you but still drive a car, do homework, or (painfully) socialize with people.

I couldn't find the documentary but it would seem these backwards societies that have no sophisticated understanding of the world do not disagree with psychotics, but instead encouraged or 'feed' their delusions. From a therapy standpoint that's interesting but risky, it might solidify the 'new reality' of the particular psychosis or allow a seamless passing-through of the particular break to some other brain dimension. It would probably be less stressful to the patient unless the patient was doing everything in his power not to believe what he was experiencing and wanted somebody else to corroborate .. overall I guess it's plausible it might lead to better outcomes and more compliant schizophrenics. I just don't know. I'd have to see it. I wish I wasn't so busy so I could read up more on this, since it's interesting as hell, but whatever, bookmark for another day.
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