[cardguy]

I don't get it. It is a nice enough film - and I am a fan of Orson Welles.

But - I don't see where the hype comes from? And I think most viewers wouldn't either if they watched the film without being first aware of it's legendary status.

People go on about the important technical innovations in the film. Bur to me that is a dumb reason to say the film is the best of all time. If we judge a film by technical innovations - then 'The Matrix' or 'Avatar' would be in the running for the best of all time. And that would be dumb.

For example - here is a quick run down of films from 1990 onwards which are easily better than Citizen Kane.

Goodfellas, Casino, Glengarry Glen Ross, Magnolia, Hard Boiled, The Man Who Wasn't There, Reservoir Dogs, Trainspotting, La Haine, Pulp Fiction, The Big Lebowski, Fight Club and Terminator 2.

And if you want older films - then I think Sunset Boulevard, The Life And Death of Colonel Blimp, and Rope are much better films as well.

[Sailor]

I liked The Magnificent Ambersons a lot more than Citizen Kane

[AntiTrace]

Citizen Kane was alright. The Big Lebowski was a let down, the dude is a cool character and there are some funny scenes but the majority of the movie is just straight boring. Same with Deliverance, but deliverance was at least controversial given its release date.

[Hannibal]

I don't know where they get off.

Metropolis was in 1927 and their technical innovation was pretty fucking high end.

I think it's like what happened with It's a Wonderful Life.

That movie was lost in the dustbin of history until some network decided to air it during Christmas in the 70's. The reason why they played it was because it was free and they were too cheap to play anything else. It initially received poor reception three decades before that because it sucked and everyone at the time knew it sucked.

I suspect that folks back in the 40's actually read Dickens and realized that It's a Wonderlife Life is a blatant ripoff, and a boring one at that.

[bacon]

Its kind of like Chinatown good movie but I doubt Id ever sit through it again

[j r]

Here's the thing to remember about classic movies. They generally have some groundbreaking elements that people at the time had never seen. Once they came out, though, they become the new standard so lots of movies start using those technics. So if you're watching Citizen Kane for the first time, a lot of it going to seem almost hackneyed, because you've been watching movies your whole life that took elements that Citizen Kane used first.

[thegmanifesto]

What were the technical innovations used in Citizen Kane?

[soup]

Citizen Kane is easy to talk about in film class and in the NY Times, so those institutions make money off of taking it apart in words.

Great art is harder to describe.

Citizen Kane is well crafted, but it is far from the greatest of movies.

[Stun]

We broke this one down in film school: At its core, it is a movie about your childhood being ripped away from you.

Who can not identify with that theme in their own life at some level?

Not to mention that, the writing and screenplay is off-the-fucking-chain good.

[Stun]

(04-22-2013 10:59 AM)cardguy Wrote:  

Goodfellas, Casino, Glengarry Glen Ross, Magnolia, Hard Boiled, The Man Who Wasn't There, Reservoir Dogs, Trainspotting, La Haine, Pulp Fiction, The Big Lebowski, Fight Club and Terminator 2.

You say Terminator 2 was better than Citizen Kane and you expect to be taken seriously as a film critic.

[cardguy]

I'm no expert. But here are some of the innovations.

The use of different styles of filming in the same movie. For instance there is some newsreel footage early on in the movie.

You can see the ceilings during the film. I kid you not - this was never done before since usually all the equipment would be stored off camera where the ceilings were on the movie set.

The use of overlapping dialogue. Also - you will sometimes hear the sound from the beginning of the next scene at the end of the previous one. Just before it cuts to it. Again - this was new.

I suppose starting the film at 'the end' and telling the story backwards and forward at the same time was pretty innovative as well.

The other thing is a technique called Deep Focus. I think this is when you have the actor in the foreground - and the actor in the distance both in focus.

Aparently it is a tricky thing to do and hadn't being done up until that point.

I am sure I am missing some stuff - but this covers some of the technical innovations. And alot of it seems very small beer to me. Personally - praising a movie like Citizen Kane for technical innovations - would be like praising a summer blockbuster for its use of CGI.

I don't care about special effects. I only care about the plot, the dialogue and the acting.

For me - the best thing about Citizen Kane is the wonderful trailer which was released to advertise it:

[cardguy]

Yeah - Terminator 2 is better than Citizen Kane. As is the first Terminator. Didn't mention that one though because I wanted to point out some movies from the past 20 or so years.

[cardguy]

On a sidenote - here is an important point. There are two types of classics.

The first type of classic - is something which was innovative for it's time. But to me - that is pretty unimpressive. Since somebody has to be the first to do something new.

The second type of classic. Is something which may or may not have being innovative for it's time. But which stands the test of time.

It is the second type of classic which interests me. 'Rope' is still a great movie - 50 years after it came out. In the same way that the music of Bach is still great - 300 years after it was written.

Being 'first' is not enough for me. Being great is all that counts.

If being innovative and groundbreaking is all that counts. Then cinema peaked with the following movie:

[cardguy]

By the way - Citizen Kane isn't even the best thing that Orson Welles did...

This is:

[cardguy]

Although some of his earlier work still holds up well...

[Fitzgerald]

Citizen Kane is the best movie ever because a bunch of old fogeys said it was.

[cardguy]

Film critics are dumb. Alot of the best movies got average reviews when they first came out. Casino, The Big Lebowski, The Man Who Wasn't There, Fight Club and The Matrix all come to mind.

[thegmanifesto]

(04-22-2013 01:24 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

Film critics are dumb. Alot of the best movies got average reviews when they first came out. Casino, The Big Lebowski, The Man Who Wasn't There, Fight Club and The Matrix all come to mind.

And Scarface.

[InternationPlayboy]

(04-22-2013 11:34 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

Citizen Kane was alright. The Big Lebowski was a let down, the dude is a cool character and there are some funny scenes but the majority of the movie is just straight boring. Same with Deliverance, but deliverance was at least controversial given its release date.

The Big Lebowski and the Coen Brothers are awesome. You're one of the first people I've ever heard say that the Big Lebowski was a let down.

[The_CEO]

(04-22-2013 10:59 AM)cardguy Wrote:  

I don't get it. It is a nice enough film - and I am a fan of Orson Welles.

But - I don't see where the hype comes from? And I think most viewers wouldn't either if they watched the film without being first aware of it's legendary status.

People go on about the important technical innovations in the film. Bur to me that is a dumb reason to say the film is the best of all time. If we judge a film by technical innovations - then 'The Matrix' or 'Avatar' would be in the running for the best of all time. And that would be dumb.

For example - here is a quick run down of films from 1990 onwards which are easily better than Citizen Kane.

Goodfellas, Casino, Glengarry Glen Ross, Magnolia, Hard Boiled, The Man Who Wasn't There, Reservoir Dogs, Trainspotting, La Haine, Pulp Fiction, The Big Lebowski, Fight Club and Terminator 2.

And if you want older films - then I think Sunset Boulevard, The Life And Death of Colonel Blimp, and Rope are much better films as well.

I don't know about 'best movie ever', but it is highly regarded by many directors, including directors of some of the films you mentioned (Scorsese, Fincher, Paul Thomas Anderson, John Woo, etc) because they all utilize technical and storytelling techniques introduced by Citizen Kane. Some of the movies and directors you refer to were significantly influenced by it.

As far as being 'the best' or the most entertaining is another story

[cardguy]

I get a bit weird around people who don't love The Big Lebowski. To me the film is perfect.

[InternationPlayboy]

The Coen Brothers are great. They have truly shown their superior film making skills over the years. They can make just about any type of movie, and make it good. You have Fargo, and then you have The Hudsucker Proxy. You would never imagine the two films were written by the same people. Just great production skills those two brothers have.

[Fitzgerald]

(04-22-2013 01:31 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(04-22-2013 11:34 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

Citizen Kane was alright. The Big Lebowski was a let down, the dude is a cool character and there are some funny scenes but the majority of the movie is just straight boring. Same with Deliverance, but deliverance was at least controversial given its release date.

The Big Lebowski and the Coen Brothers are awesome. You're one of the first people I've ever heard say that the Big Lebowski was a let down.

I laugh all the way through Lebowski, even the first time I saw it. Haven't seen all the Coen flicks, but O Brother is awesome as well.

[InternationPlayboy]

(04-22-2013 01:45 PM)Fitzgerald Wrote:  

(04-22-2013 01:31 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(04-22-2013 11:34 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

Citizen Kane was alright. The Big Lebowski was a let down, the dude is a cool character and there are some funny scenes but the majority of the movie is just straight boring. Same with Deliverance, but deliverance was at least controversial given its release date.

The Big Lebowski and the Coen Brothers are awesome. You're one of the first people I've ever heard say that the Big Lebowski was a let down.

I laugh all the way through Lebowski, even the first time I saw it. Haven't seen all the Coen flicks, but O Brother is awesome as well.

You should check out Fargo if you haven't already. Very different than The Big Lebowski. It's pretty dark, but there are so many cleaver elements to that film. It's probably my favorite of their movies. Raising Arizona was also great. I like just about everything they make, though I had a hard time getting through "A Serious Man" and "Barton Fink" was pretty out there but still pretty good. I still haven't seen Intolerable Cruelty. It looked like it may be a little chick flicky to me.

[Sailor]

(04-22-2013 12:54 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

I'm no expert. But here are some of the innovations.



I suppose starting the film at 'the end' and telling the story backwards and forward at the same time was pretty innovative as well.



I am sure I am missing some stuff - but this covers some of the technical innovations. And alot of it seems very small beer to me. Personally - praising a movie like Citizen Kane for technical innovations - would be like praising a summer blockbuster for its use of CGI.

I think it had been done before in more than one movie,only example i can remember right now is Kitty Foyle(1940),but there must have been others