[valleyheart]

While everything seems to point to men being more "beta", at least via pop culture, news, media, etc. I actually think guys are more alpha than ever have been - at least in the midwest and south.

Sometimes I think one very beta thing can happen, then it's overblown and used to perpetuate this idea that men are getting more beta, feminists are winning the battle.

If anything, in the midwest there are more "alpha-in-the-toughguy" sense guys than ever before. Goto any midwestern city, big or small, and you will see the MMA culture.

I mean, these dudes are built, tatted up, confident, and they will let their presence be known. Kind of dudes you don't even want to make eye contact with because they'll think you looked at them wrong or something. Especially post-college age...most of these guys are 23-33. May have something to do with the general lack of hot women above a certain in the midwest...they marry younger.

While there are beta hipster pansies than probably ever (in major coastal cities) the midwest & south are still full of alpha-acting guys, although these guys overreact at basically anything which isn't alpha in my opinion, but at first glance they'd be seen as it.

Does anyone else agree?

[Lemmo]

(02-11-2013 10:24 PM)valleyheart Wrote:  

While everything seems to point to men being more "beta", at least via pop culture, news, media, etc. I actually think guys are more alpha than ever have been - at least in the midwest and south.

Sometimes I think one very beta thing can happen, then it's overblown and used to perpetuate this idea that men are getting more beta, feminists are winning the battle.

If anything, in the midwest there are more "alpha-in-the-toughguy" sense guys than ever before. Goto any midwestern city, big or small, and you will see the MMA culture.

I mean, these dudes are built, tatted up, confident, and they will let their presence be known. Kind of dudes you don't even want to make eye contact with because they'll think you looked at them wrong or something. Especially post-college age...most of these guys are 23-33. May have something to do with the general lack of hot women above a certain in the midwest...they marry younger.

While there are beta hipster pansies than probably ever (in major coastal cities) the midwest & south are still full of alpha-acting guys, although these guys overreact at basically anything which isn't alpha in my opinion, but at first glance they'd be seen as it.

Does anyone else agree?

I agree to a certain extent. These areas are more traditional and still have the remnants of a culture so there is more of an expectation that guys will be somewhat masculine. But there is a tendency for men to be "nice guys" and a lot of people are religious, which can at times lead to women being treated too well. And the people you describe ("tatted up" guys looking for fights) are a small minority at the absolute bottom of the social ladder - not representative at all. I'd expect to find these sorts of fringe dwellers in greater numbers on the coasts since there is more extreme poverty/slums/violence there.

[j r]

Traditional masculinity is becoming rarer. Instead many men are ending up as either effeminate SWPL types or the hyper masculine paper alphas that you are describing. I don't think that either one is particularly good model for what a well-adjusted adult man should be like.

[Samseau]

Most of the time, guys on this board mean "alpha" as in the ability to attract and seduce women.

Those big muscle bound dudes aren't alpha as you think they are if they get laid less than a skinny NYC hipster.

[Grit]

Society is getting more feminized.

Men like you believe that tatted up MMA fighters prove how tough and alpha our society still is. Science is looking at this from a different perspective. For example: having more tattoos usually correlates with impulsive and a-social behavior. Impulsive and a-social behavior is emotional. Behavior driven by emotion is feminine.

Society is created by logical, rational, and calculated thoughts, the exact opposite of emotional and involuntary behavior. So to answer your original conjecture:

Society is not getting more beta, its just disappearing.

[Therapsid]

(02-11-2013 10:52 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Most of the time, guys on this board mean "alpha" as in the ability to attract and seduce women.

Those big muscle bound dudes aren't alpha as you think they are if they get laid less than a skinny NYC hipster.

The implication of this definition is that a young pretty boy with some basic game who nevertheless has inner game issues is more alpha than a version of himself twenty years hence who is much more confident and a better, more witty conversationalist, since after everything's said and done the former would get laid more or at least with more beautiful young women even if his game in abstract terms may not be as sharp.

There's no entirely consistent definition of alpha it seems to me, although this is a debate that's been done on here before. It's a bit like arguing which is the best map - they all make compromises with the spherical earth. In the same way, it's hard to pin down what makes a well-rounded man.

[Samseau]

(02-11-2013 11:00 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 10:52 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Most of the time, guys on this board mean "alpha" as in the ability to attract and seduce women.

Those big muscle bound dudes aren't alpha as you think they are if they get laid less than a skinny NYC hipster.

The implication of this definition is that a young pretty boy with some basic game who nevertheless has inner game issues is more alpha than a version of himself twenty years hence who is much more confident and a better, more witty conversationalist, since after everything's said and done the former would get laid more or at least with more beautiful young women even if his game in abstract terms may not be as sharp.

There's no entirely consistent definition of alpha it seems to me, although this is a debate that's been done on here before. It's a bit like arguing which is the best map - they all make compromises with the spherical earth. In the same way, it's hard to pin down what makes a well-rounded man.

That's because a man's passive value can be decreasing while his active value (his game) increases.

I assumed the topic of this thread was more focused on the active game side of things, because that is the one aspect men have the most control over in their lives.

[Ambros]

(02-11-2013 10:24 PM)valleyheart Wrote:  

While everything seems to point to men being more "beta", at least via pop culture, news, media, etc. I actually think guys are more alpha than ever have been - at least in the midwest and south.

Sometimes I think one very beta thing can happen, then it's overblown and used to perpetuate this idea that men are getting more beta, feminists are winning the battle.

If anything, in the midwest there are more "alpha-in-the-toughguy" sense guys than ever before. Goto any midwestern city, big or small, and you will see the MMA culture.

I mean, these dudes are built, tatted up, confident, and they will let their presence be known. Kind of dudes you don't even want to make eye contact with because they'll think you looked at them wrong or something. Especially post-college age...most of these guys are 23-33. May have something to do with the general lack of hot women above a certain in the midwest...they marry younger.

While there are beta hipster pansies than probably ever (in major coastal cities) the midwest & south are still full of alpha-acting guys, although these guys overreact at basically anything which isn't alpha in my opinion, but at first glance they'd be seen as it.

Does anyone else agree?

An mma guy who is getting in conflicts over eye-contact, is not alpha in my book. While being better than the self loathing hipster types, he is still an insecure child in most cases. A true alpha is someone who is self possessed, and isn't simply filling the role of a character he believes to be superior.

[storm]

Samseau is on the dot here. However, OP raises a valid point in pointing out the surge of interest in bodybuilding, MMA, and tats that has been happening in the US of late.

Consider that you can have crushingly poor game and still pull if you look good enough. In this way, society is becoming less beta.

I agree with his suggestion that it might be because of increased competition in the sexual marketplace due to increasing scarcity of quality women in the US.

[valleyheart]

An example would be, Bruno Mars releases a hit song, some beta whiney fest about a woman.

It's seen as a sign that society is more beta and going that direction, when in reality, it's just one guy. There's another million guys trying to be as alpha as possible.

What gets forgotten, there's way dudes into bodybuilding & fighting culture than ever in history. More general hostility in society as well.

I understand a guy can be a welterweight hipster and attract women over a 200lb built, toughguy. I'm probably closer to the hipster although I'm not one.

What I'm saying is, there's more "toughguys" in the US than ever before. There's simply nothing beta about that.

[Hades]

I think society is getting more beta because there's fewer spheres where men can act like men anymore. We have women in the military, only a very few schools are gender segregated, all kinds of coed sports and sharing of facilities, women all over the work force, and as a result we always have to be mindful of who's listening and who could get offended (always women and manginas). There's no clear path to be a man that a woman couldn't walk. Our reaction to this is why we have internet forums.

[Lemmo]

(02-11-2013 11:41 PM)valleyheart Wrote:  

An example would be, Bruno Mars releases a hit song, some beta whiney fest about a woman.

It's seen as a sign that society is more beta and going that direction, when in reality, it's just one guy. There's another million guys trying to be as alpha as possible.

What gets forgotten, there's way dudes into bodybuilding & fighting culture than ever in history. More general hostility in society as well.

I understand a guy can be a welterweight hipster and attract women over a 200lb built, toughguy. I'm probably closer to the hipster although I'm not one.

What I'm saying is, there's more "toughguys" in the US than ever before. There's simply nothing beta about that.

It seems like a feminist definition of masculinity - an impulsive, overly aggressive ape.

[valleyheart]

The odd thing, I think those guys constitute a forgotten portion of male society, because of the "beta shift", which is a myth in my opinion, at least outside of urban parts of town in major cities, especially coastal "liberal" cities.

[J DOE]

I live in the Midwest, and I will say there are a lot of 'toughguys' walking around (especially on my college campus). I've noticed a strange type of guy who I don't exactly know how to categorize. The kind of guy who is alpha in everything he does (in his dealings with other men, his attitude towards life, his ambitious attitude, ability to get paid, willingness to fight for his beliefs or when disrespected, etc.) except for with women. Not necessarily Beta, but something in between an Alpha and Beta.

[Low Status Beta]

i live in te midwest, and most dudes are either Chubby/Fat, or Skinny borderline anorexic looking.

Dudes spend half their day glued to their phone, reading and watching but not actually doing anything.

It seems like about 1 in 2 dudes i meet are on some sort of prescription Drug (Adderall, Prozac, Ritalin). Combined with the Weed and Alcohol, most dudes are only halfway conscious.

[NYC_HipsterDouchebag]

So mid western bros who do "MMA" and wear Tapout shirts acting like touchy babies itching to fight are more "alpha" than the "pansy hipster" living in a major coastal city? I honestly don't think they get laid more or are more masculine/alpha it seems try hard. I also think it's a misconception that a man who may be identified as a hipster is labeled beta. There are many forms of masculinity and alpha. To say that someone's avatar or image is automatically alpha or beta is discrediting a lot of other factors such as inner game, personality, and presence. I've seen and have experienced many different types of girls attracted to and sleep with myself and my friends who could be labeled as a hipster stereotype. You could weigh 120 lbs wear Ray Bahn glasses, skinny jeans a leather jacket and Chuck Taylors and get insane amounts of women who think you are alpha. I've seen it happen just last night in Brooklyn with my friend and his band.

[Screwston]

LOL at thinking douchebags are alpha tough guys.

[RawGod]

Agree that alpha has nothing to do with being big and tattooed. As a guy with a small build, it took me a long time to realise that a lot of those intimidating guys are actually pussies in many areas of their lives. No, I don't want to get in a fight with them. But they are probably completely whipped with women, their families, or their bosses/work lives. This is especially true for people in the armed forces.
It's weird. I've always been the quiet, small guy who dumps his GF first and tells his boss where to go. Not that I was "alpha" or even particularly successful, I just have never seen any benefit in putting up with any shit when I can go drink a latte and read a good book. Amazes me when I see people much more physically and socially gifted, people I actually envy, who put their balls in a vice for other people.

[RawGod]

(02-12-2013 12:20 AM)J DOE Wrote:  

I've noticed a strange type of guy who I don't exactly know how to categorize. The kind of guy who is alpha in everything he does (in his dealings with other men, his attitude towards life, his ambitious attitude, ability to get paid, willingness to fight for his beliefs or when disrespected, etc.) except for with women.

I would guess that this is the type of guy who would have been "alpha" with women a generation ago, but has grown up his whole life with no role models for his natural instincts. He has nobody in his life to learn from, and no media is giving him the right cues. So he ends up kind of flailing around.
The manosphere is the only source to relearn this kind of behaviour for many. It's like recreating an extinct martial art from a few old books and one old dude in the mountains of Shaanxi who used to train with the last real master.

[valleyheart]

I'd like to rephrase...I don't find these guys impressive, which it may seem that way just for noticing them. They are more of a nuisance than anything. You literally have to be en garde when they are around, especially if you dare open a set with a woman they may be interested in. These dudes also generally show up 4 or 5 deep.

The point I'm making is - It's hard to deny that a guy who is tough, built, and doesn't take shit from anyone isn't at least somewhat alpha. Also, some of those types of dudes do get a lot of women as well, mainly off having some badboy/don't give a fuck appeal.

Maybe these guys aren't classically smooth ladykillers, but they definitely aren't reflective of the beta pansies the world is supposedly turning into.

[Ruxman]

The alphas mentioned are insolent children no different from a bimbo getting fake tan boob job with clear designer logo tshirt. Its all for attention, that isnt masculine.

[bojangles]

(02-11-2013 11:41 PM)valleyheart Wrote:  

An example would be, Bruno Mars releases a hit song, some beta whiney fest about a woman.

It's seen as a sign that society is more beta and going that direction, when in reality, it's just one guy. There's another million guys trying to be as alpha as possible.

What gets forgotten, there's way dudes into bodybuilding & fighting culture than ever in history. More general hostility in society as well.

I understand a guy can be a welterweight hipster and attract women over a 200lb built, toughguy. I'm probably closer to the hipster although I'm not one.

What I'm saying is, there's more "toughguys" in the US than ever before. There's simply nothing beta about that.

This is not true at all, sure there's more people into gym's and stuff now but men in the past were tougher, stronger, did more manual work and actually fought.
Hostility in society? There is none, people are just in their own worlds now, there's less conflict now, just look at the way kids are nurtured through school.

[scorpion]

Valleyheart, you're totally misreading the situation I'm afraid. Most of the guys you're describing act the way they act and look the way they look because they're trying to compensate for deep-seated feelings of insecurity.

They act tough because deep down they feel soft.

They get big and strong because deep down they feel weak.

They roll out with a group because deep down they're scared to be alone.

Essentially, they're putting on a show. It's not masculinity, it's masculinity theatre.

These guys don't actually know what being a man means, so they make fools of themselves by trying to exaggerate the qualities they associate with being manly, like muscles, aggression, tattoos, etc...

The problem is that this is an extremely shallow understanding of masculinity. A man is not masculine or alpha simply because he has big muscles, tattoos and walks around with swagger, anymore than a woman is feminine because she has fake tits, a spray tan and weighs 120 lbs.

A man who is truly masculine is self-possessed, and does not give a fuck about trying to appear "badass" or "alpha" to other dudes in bars. He simply goes about his life and handles his business as it comes. He does not feel the need to impress random people, seek attention through his appearance or try to intimidate people with an exaggerated caricature of masculinity by covering himself in tattoos and walking around with a chip on his shoulder.

You're falling for their act. They're gaming you.

[le prince perdu]

Nah I don't think guys are getting more alpha, I see all the big guys you are referring to but I don't see them getting any pussy.

Most of the big guys with tattoos that I have encountered have terrible game, they talk a lot of shit about getting all the pussies but when you ask them to approach they find a lame ass excuse not to.

Being Alpha is internal, The human body doesn't think.

Muscles are just muscles, they do not give you the knowledge to be a great man.

[RichieP]

Big tough tatted-uplooking guys aren't usually alpha.

alpha to me = approaches, attracts and pull girls, a social creator, firm boundaries, aggressive if necessary, low insecurity, laughs alot

They seem like the opposite, lol. They definitely are aggressive though, but usually as a coping mechanism.