[kosko]

Jenaveve Jolie - Mexican and Cherokee:

[ElBorrachoInfamoso]

Stronger cultures tend to overwhelm weaker cultures, even if the weaker culture is brought by a group of conquerors who become the ruling class. Others have already brought up the example of the Germanic tribes that conquered Italy, but eventually adopted Latin culture. Another example is Iberia. The Visigoths conquered Iberia after the Roman Empire fell apart, but they adopted Latin culture. When the Romans conquered Gaul, the Gauls adopted Roman culture. Who do you think had the stronger culture? Today, France is far more Latin than it is Celtic.

Multiculturalism doesn't always fail, it's just prone to failure unless the cultures in contact are relatively equal. Multiculturalism works fine in Switzerland because it is composed of (approximately) equal cultures.

The problem with many immigrant groups in the US is not multiculturalism, it's crime, poverty and the welfare state. Except for a few communities, Hispanics in the US are far more American than they are Hispanic. As a Latino and someone who has spent significant time in Latin America, I can tell you that American Hispanics are just that, Americans first and Hispanics second. They may take pride in their "otherness" and call themselves Hispanic, but their culture is far more similar to American culture than to Hispanic culture. On the whole, Latin America is adopting North American culture more than North Americans are adopting Latin culture. Anglo culture is stronger than Latin culture.

[solo]

(02-07-2013 03:17 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

solo Wrote:

I think it's pretty obvious the land was theirs and that they understood this, given that they had possessed it for generations and were willing to defend it. In any case, whether or not a person is *aware* that something is his, is irrelevant from a legal perspective; stealing from a baby or a senile person is still stealing. Sure, in some cases they sold the land such as the example of Manhattan which you mention but they refused to sell many of their territories.
The irony and hypocrisy of today's descendants complaining about illegal immigrants when they themselves are the product of illegal immigrants is not lost to me, at least.

How do you know this to be the case? How many people can truly trace their ancestors back to the Mayflower? The bulk of Europeans came here legally during the great migration wave of the 19th century when America was rapidly industrializing. This country had long since been established for generations at that point, so was that still illegal immigration? I won't include black Americans since that immigration was obviously involuntary. Are the Chinese that came over to build the railroad also some sort of illegal immigrant?

Even if many Europeans came there "legally" many of their descendants today live on soil which was taken illegally. I guess it's convenient to just say it happened a long time ago and its too late to give it back now so they might as well keep it. By the same logic, if China invaded the US today and managed to hold on to the territory for about 100 years or so, US loose their right to claim their territory back.
To me, if something is established on stolen territory, that something remains ilegal. Maybe the law says that after a certain number of years, the "ilegalness" ceases but that doesn't change the fact that it was ilegal from the beginning.

(02-07-2013 03:17 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

Do you live in the US? If so why are you still living on stolen land? I'd respect people who make this argument if they sold their home, gave the money to the nearest Indian tribe and departed for their ancestral homeland wherever that is. At least they'd be consistent with their ideas. For that matter, no new immigrants should come here either, legally or illegally since they are further displacing Indians off their original homeland.

No I don't live in the US (like I said though not *all* of US land was stolen). However, even where I'm from the indigenous population was mistreated by the government too (though not to the extent as elsewhere, like for instance in the Americas). I'm pretty sure there were no indigenous people in the specific part of my country where I was born though. In any case I would support them if they wanted to reclaim any stolen territory.

One important difference between the European colonization of much of the world and todays migration to Western countries is that this time around the immigrants are not looking to take over the territory or kill the Natives in doing so. For this reason and because it's proving difficult as well as expensive to completely curb ilegal immigration, I think we in the West would be better off discussing how we can reduce its negative consequences. One way could be to cut excessive government expenditure. Just off the top off my head, cut the agriculture subsidies so farmers in poor countries can start to make a living again, then they won't have to migrate.

[Sebastian]

I am a typical asian kid who grew up watching hollywood movies in another country.

My impression about 'Indian' was bad since all they do is killing innocent white family in the movie.

It got changed when I got here. I felt bad for them. In American history, they even have a space for 'white woman got raped by 3 black men'. For Indians, they just describe in a short manner , 'somehow hundreds of indians died'

I know how white people and even other races look at Indians. (obviously negative)
If I have a choice to hangout with either white kid group or Indian kid group, I will probably choose white kid group. the fear of not belonging to the main group is pretty powerful.

[GenJx]

(02-08-2013 11:48 PM)Sebastian Wrote:  

I am a typical asian kid who grew up watching hollywood movies in another country.

My impression about 'Indian' was bad since all they do is killing innocent white family in the movie.

It got changed when I got here. I felt bad for them. In American history, they even have a space for 'white woman got raped by 3 black men'. For Indians, they just describe in a short manner , 'somehow hundreds of indians died'

I know how white people and even other races look at Indians. (obviously negative)
If I have a choice to hangout with either white kid group or Indian kid group, I will probably choose white kid group. the fear of not belonging to the main group is pretty powerful.