[Asaxon]

I am curious about where a lot of you red pill guys stand when it comes to the future of the west and the US specifically. Do you believe our society of growing debt and entitlement programs, political correctness etc is sustainable or will the house come crashing down soon?
I am torn on the subject because I believe that technology makes for ever more efficient production of goods to feed unproductive masses that can be manipulated for votes and the interests of the elite. On the other hand a society of illiterate single mothers with attitude and guys playing video games seems vulnerable to outside attacks as well as internal disruptions.
I have to admit that I almost hope for a massive change ( not in the Obama sense) to return to a more free society instead of the perversion we are living in now...

[Andy_B]

All the conventional signs of social collapse are pretty much there, if you read history books and look at signs of empires that declined, they're all present in the modern U.S. Technology is indeed a mitigating factor, but for us to be able to survive our current level of decadence as a society, we'd pretty much need some post-singularity level shit (i.e. technology at such a level that it completely eliminates scarcity). So I'm not counting on it.

[Asaxon]

Andy, that has been my position for years now but whenever I see the boat tilting it magically keeps from sinking, time and time again. Of course, history can take a few decades or centuries to unfold its wrath. Do you think it will be a gradual decline a la Roman Empire or more a sudden event like a war, revolution, major disruption triggering the cascade?

[void]

Money is a man-made bogus system, if society really crashes it will be because of declining (cheap) energy resources (Oil, Gas, Coal, Wood). every comfort you have is built on these

[Andy_B]

(01-15-2013 01:29 AM)Asaxon Wrote:  

Andy, that has been my position for years now but whenever I see the boat tilting it magically keeps from sinking, time and time again. Of course, history can take a few decades or centuries to unfold its wrath. Do you think it will be a gradual decline a la Roman Empire or more a sudden event like a war, revolution, major disruption triggering the cascade?

Rome was already in rough shape socially by the age of Augustus. The women were refusing to have kids, the barbarians were producing more children, slavery was completely out of control, the romans were just grabbing resources from colonies with hardly any pretext of providing services like roads and buildings. But it wasn't until a few hundred years later that society really fell apart. It's pretty rare that a society goes from gold to shit overnight. When historians say things like "the soviet union fell on (insert date here)," they're really just picking out the date when it was obvious to everyone and totally undeniable. If it was news to you at that point that the USSR was over, you wouldn't have been paying much attention. Every empire falls pretty gradually, except empires like those of Hitler and Napoleon that were built on way too much aggressiveness too quickly.

[Asaxon]

Money still matters in decision making. Look at what happened during inflation panics in Germany in 1920 and Argentina recently...also the transfer of wealth from the productive to the leeches creates disincentives to work that will one day catch up with us one way or another. Who wants to take risks and work 90 hour weeks to be taxed at 90% to support single moms or other protected groups?

[Asaxon]

Andy, gradual can mean a lot these days. Where Rome took centuries the soviet system took decades. I think technology accelerates some things so I would assume our collapse could happen any time now or maybe drag on for years and years... It seems that the holes are getting bigger and bigger though (QE, Greece...).

[Andy_B]

(01-15-2013 01:49 AM)Asaxon Wrote:  

Andy, gradual can mean a lot these days. Where Rome took centuries the soviet system took decades. I think technology accelerates some things so I would assume our collapse could happen any time now or maybe drag on for years and years... It seems that the holes are getting bigger and bigger though (QE, Greece...).

Yes, I agree with this. Rome's reign as sole superpower (end of the last punic war to the reign of hadrian) lasted hundreds of years, it's hard to see America getting much more than 30 (1990-2020).

As for specifics, a lot of people are saying this will be mostly over by 2020. China will certainly have a bigger economy by then, but declinining in significance does not mean that an empire has "ended," just that it has gotten smaller.

Remember this though: because of nuclear weapons, great powers really don't get militarily invaded anymore. I think these days you'd say an empire has "ended" when it declares bankruptcy or something like that. And I don't think an event of that magnitude is necessarily that far off...

[Collapseofman]

I've run a blog for a little while about why complex civilization is inseparable from patriarchy and why it won't survive the transition to a female-dominated workforce. Should be in my signature.

The way I see it, it's either going to be sooner or it's going to be later. The current generation of males is going to be severely disenfranchised by the preferential treatment offered to women in the workplace and the obvious "soft" discrimination produced by an educational system -completely- run by females. Either the cultural betafication process succeeds and the masses of young men are able to become wives to the up-and-coming generation of de facto feminists, or it fails and we have a massive population of sexually and economically dispossessed young men -- much like the Middle East or Africa. I think it goes without saying that this is one of the greatest conceivable forces of destablization any society could face.

Feminist cultural programming is separating men into classes of providers and lovers, and the throngs of young men getting the shaft in this generation may very well be the cuckolded beta stay-at-home dads of tomorrow if they decide to sell their testicles to the Hannah Rosins of the world and take on a life of domestic degradation. Even if this is the case, though, I believe the female mind is predisposed to tribal organizations of direct human relationships and not the sprawling economic and political institutions men have been creating for the past 8 or 900 years. I am fairly convinced that if they take over, they will eventually reduce society to a scale more to their liking, and the process will contract the economy to the point of collapse. I couldn't see that taking more than a generation or two. I'm looking forward to seeing if I'm right.

[ElBorrachoInfamoso]

(01-15-2013 02:14 AM)Collapseofman Wrote:  

I've run a blog for a little while about why complex civilization is inseparable from patriarchy and why it won't survive the transition to a female-dominated workforce. Should be in my signature.

The way I see it, it's either going to be sooner or it's going to be later. The current generation of males is going to be severely disenfranchised by the preferential treatment offered to women in the workplace and the obvious "soft" discrimination produced by an educational system -completely- run by females. Either the cultural betafication process succeeds and the masses of young men are able to become wives to the up-and-coming generation of de facto feminists, or it fails and we have a massive population of sexually and economically dispossessed young men -- much like the Middle East or Africa. I think it goes without saying that this is one of the greatest conceivable forces of destablization any society could face.

Feminist cultural programming is separating men into classes of providers and lovers, and the throngs of young men getting the shaft in this generation may very well be the cuckolded beta stay-at-home dads of tomorrow if they decide to sell their testicles to the Hannah Rosins of the world and take on a life of domestic degradation. Even if this is the case, though, I believe the female mind is predisposed to tribal organizations of direct human relationships and not the sprawling economic and political institutions men have been creating for the past 8 or 900 years. I am fairly convinced that if they take over, they will eventually reduce society to a scale more to their liking, and the process will contract the economy to the point of collapse. I couldn't see that taking more than a generation or two. I'm looking forward to seeing if I'm right.

What he said.

The reason we have never sign a matriarchal civilization is because matriarchy is incompatible with civilizations.

Civilization is inherently masculine and it collapses without male leadership.

[bojangles]

Roman empire collapsed because of economic reforms primarily and migration into the empire by barbarians. There's a similar story in the western world right now. The empire's exports were minimal compared to it's imports. High taxes lead to labour immobility and after a certain time, people had fuck all to give except food and cattle etc.

Lack of leadership after Theodosius didnt help either.

[Pappy]

I have hope for the future. Let's not forget one thing : most women lose in today's race. The very feminists we criticize so much are very unhappy. You think they like the way things are now? They bitch and complain for the rest of their lives. A lot of them are starting to wake up to the fact that this whole thing doesn't work at all. They will be receptive for a change.

Here are some facts :

Women who want a real stable family can't have one. That's a large chunk of the population. It's safe to say most women want a family.

Women who are average or ugly are completely invisible. Or they're cum dumpsters. Think about it : quality guys don't commit and only fuck hot girls. Average guys play video games and dream about fucking hot girls. In the end, Plain Jane is invisible her entire life or is forced to lower herself to be a low value slut. In the past, at least Plain Jane got Plain Joe.

Older women are alone. They're miserable. You think they're gonna tell their children to party and fuck until you're 35 and end up losers just like them?

A lot of men are unhappy and I don't have to make that case. So in the end, a lot of people are unhappy and they're looking for solutions. And the solution won't be the same ideologies who brought us here...

[ElJefe]

Not to get into a discussion of Roman collapse, but another explanation I've heard made is the end of the citizen's army, and its gradual replacement by mercenaries and professionals who were not emotionally attached to the Fatherland. "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori" went out of style.

It probably wasn't a single factor, but several, each one enabling the other. Kinda like AIDS.

Either the US goes bankrupt, or the dollar's value will collapses entirely, and only the most powerful will escape that monster. Part of this is that the US is becoming increasingly Balkanized, and as predominantly whites flee states with higher taxes and repressive civil "rights", government will increasingly seek to wrestle resources from them to award their minions.

The only way I see things changing is if the collective man-hood of the US grows a pair and votes women out of power. This is a question of national survival, as Heartiste enjoys to point out. Either we survive (go generally conservative) or we perish (go generally progressive), and these are the choices. I can appreciate the point of view Roosh has had that it's just best to enjoy the ride and fuck your way to the downfall, but I have a feeling he's not feeling fulfilled by that, and wants to wage war on feminism more directly (referencing his latest video about 2013). I think it's an every red-blooded American man's heart that he wants to see America prevail - it's his team, his tribe, and no amount of social programming and feminist brainwashing is going to turn off those instinctive feelings of loyalty that propelled humanity out of the jungle to civilization today.

Europe is done - no European nation has the will to survive anymore. Except perhaps Switzerland (where I'm planning to escape to).

[j r]

(01-15-2013 01:46 AM)Asaxon Wrote:  

Money still matters in decision making. Look at what happened during inflation panics in Germany in 1920 and Argentina recently...also the transfer of wealth from the productive to the leeches creates disincentives to work that will one day catch up with us one way or another. Who wants to take risks and work 90 hour weeks to be taxed at 90% to support single moms or other protected groups?

If America is in decline, which for me is debateble, it is in part because someone has convinced you that your taxes are going to single moms and not to defense contractors and unsustainable middle class transfer programs.

The federal budget is a public document. You can go and look for yourself where the money goes. The main problem with this country right now is that the political class is very adept at scapegoating and that makes it almost impossible to correctly identify problems and fix them.

[ColSpanker]

If you want some perspective, go look at the comments on any issue being discussed over at the Atlantic website. A lot of articles have been linked to it from here. I am astonished by the level of betatude. Most of the commentators believe everything will work out fine if President Barry is given unlimited power. And don't get me started about Salon....

[Asaxon]

j r, having lived in Georgia and Tennessee and worked for a municipality in each, I have seen where my local and state taxes are spent and it is not the middle class... federal dollars spent on entitlement programs have ballooned over the last 4 years. This and the looming ss crisis etc do not raise alarm bells for you? If you think we are on an upward trajectory, good for you but a majority of Americans are financially worse off than they were 25 years ago (real, adjusted, inflation adjusted purchasing power) and are facing the bills racked up by the baby boomers.
Also, if you believe our culture of political correctness, feminization, loss of old-style values (leading to broken homes, children growing up without fathers, massive college debt etc) etc is commendable then I do not know what to say...

[ElBorrachoInfamoso]

All prosperous societies appear to be unstable. Ours will probably collapse and the process will start over again.

[RawGod]

There's still a heck of a lot of social capital in western societies. People wait in orderly queues and turn up to work on time, bribery and corruption is at manageable levels, and infrastructure works well.

I'm anticipating a decline (of the US in particular) more like Britain's. In 1900 it was the center of a vast empire and the apex of world civilisation technologically and culturally. After WWII, it declined to just another European nation. But life in Britain has still been OK for the last half century.

In terms of planning for your life, sure buy gold if you want, and don't count on getting a good government-backed pension 30 years from now. But I'm going to bet on Europe, America and Australia remaining functional. Barring the once-a-century catastrophic war, of course...

[RichieP]

(01-15-2013 08:51 AM)RawGod Wrote:  

There's still a heck of a lot of social capital in western societies. People wait in orderly queues and turn up to work on time, bribery and corruption is at manageable levels, and infrastructure works well.

I'm anticipating a decline (of the US in particular) more like Britain's. In 1900 it was the center of a vast empire and the apex of world civilisation technologically and culturally. After WWII, it declined to just another European nation. But life in Britain has still been OK for the last half century.

In terms of planning for your life, sure buy gold if you want, and don't count on getting a good government-backed pension 30 years from now. But I'm going to bet on Europe, America and Australia remaining functional. Barring the once-a-century catastrophic war, of course...

Exactly. A sensible voice. Same with Japan's 10 year recession. Rough times, but not "the collapse of society" lol.

[DVY]

@Asaxon- I agree w/your factors, but disagree with your conclusions. I think it will be a slow and steady ride downwards BUT

@RichieP- living standards/expenses are going to be near unsustainable. We are going to see a lot of downsizing in spending, in materialism,and in economic policies. In 1992, the british pound lost about 40% of its value in a day or two. This event is likely to happen slowly, but possibly quickly in the USA.

On the flipside, if spending continues at the rate it is now. W/in 20 years, this country's wealth will be slowly expatriated to more friendly regimes. It already is. Companies via double-dutch or dutch-irish-barbados sandwich are holding foreign profits at near tax-free rates. Google, microsoft, walmart, ikea. Its a trend not like to subside

[Samseau]

I don't know about "collapse", whatever the hell that means, but I do know that America is going to be VERY POOR in the next 50 years!

[Marcellus]

It's not a collapse; it's a return to the more or less natural situation. 95% of the population poor as fuck and angry and frustrated. An army of pussyhungry men, ready to do anything to get it; like invading other countries. 5% of the population rich and 1% very rich, with (off course) hot chicks at their disposal.

[solo]

I don't think we will see a sudden collapse either, more likely a gradual decline of Western countries where high inflation will be an important reason. I have only a limited understanding of economics but I don't see how inflation can be stable in the future with all the bailouts and God knows what plus how central banks are printing money and whatever the hell they are doing.

[Damedius]

I would say that the current situation has to collapse eventually. It is unsustainable. Many populations are getting older and will become a strain on the remaining taxpayers. This especially true for countries with free Health Care. People who didn't take care of themselves will cost the system an insane amount of money to keep them alive.

I would say that eventually there will have to be a collapse of sorts that will result in a cleansing. Where many people who are old, poor and/or lazy will die. It's unfortunate, but I believe it is necessary. You can't have so many people living off of others.

The other scenario that is less preferable, but also possible is a continuous decline in the standard of living till the first world and the third world meet in the middle.

[Architekt]

Quote:

Enough people choke themselves when they jerk off that we gave it a name. We ain't a species made to last

Western society these days is focused on survival of the weakest. This philosophy will inevitably lead to downfall. The only question is how long it will take. The rich will survive for a while, and I suspect that the smarter ones will escape before shit really hits the fan, but eventually their money will essentially become useless, something like post WWI Germany. Just some theorizing here, I'm by no means an expert, but this is what I foresee happening.