[smashley]

Have been hitting the okc hard and have had a ton of dates under my belt at this point. Have had moderate success and am continuing going strong. I don't seem to have trouble getting the numbers and the dates (3-4 a week), but am looking to critique and compare notes on my first date structure. I am continually refining my approach to somewhat standardize the first date, with various branches I can take when the time is right. I have standardized most of my online approaches and number gathering, as well as my text/call structure to setup the first date. (90% works out great and I get very few flakes) Thanks roosh text game etc.

Now maybe it's my look or my background/approach, but I usually work solid "guy with humor" (but firm and to the point) approach online. I usually find exchanging with some girls a little longer helps build some rapport. (Only if they are reciprocating) Now this usually gets me girls who are decent looking but really educated. Out of my last 10 dates, 8 out of town had at least a bachelor degree from good school and some masters degrees. With there education comes some responsibility. They are usually not into the bar dates. Not to mention I find that 90% of guys are all requesting drink dates. This may or may not be due to game websites pushing this. Whenever I go for drink date, my flake percentage goes up to like 80%!

There have been several threads on the dinner date and bar date, as well as non-alcohol dates. I have read them all but have reflected theoretically on this topic over the last few weeks. I have also experimented with both and not had great success.

Now hear me out.. I respect rooshes approach with the drinks date. The isolation, the liquid in the girl, the closeness for kino, etc. I think it's a good strategy that works. But it seems like most of the girls I am encountering for some reason are educated and don't drink or don't trust guys online enough to drink right off the bat.. I don't know if its my image or approach, or the location I am at. Or the type of girls i am going after.

I do find (in my experience) however that I find it's best to start with a meal date. I have not found something that is so fundamental and basic that allows that initial date interaction discomfort to pass easier. I have tried going for a walk, or other outdoor activities suggested in this forum and these flakes go up to because I feel like some of these activities are lame to someone you haven't met yet...

I do usually try to roll to rooshes drink date right after however. This provides the change of venue as well as get's the comfort going initially. Now the way I usually do it is to get some cheap meals. I usually shoot for around $10 or less a plate and avoid places with waiter service.. This usually brings the tab to around $20. Now in LA drinks out at a bar are around 8-10 dollars a drink so I usually end up pretty close to the same. And also at least I get a full stomach and a clean liver if she doesn't want to bounce to the next activity.

My approach seems to be working decently but more in a "few dates to lay" way, but I just want to compare notes to some. As I read several of these threads I always see guys with the drink thread go to. Is anyone doing meal dates? I know they're frounded upon here, but I am experiencing otherwise.... Although i'll say the SNL's are limited...

[TheBulldozer]

No.

Stop filling her belly. Stop making her tired. Stop making date plans during dinner time.

Read the message board, there is a TON of information regarding drinks for the first date.

[MrXY]

I'm not surprised that your flake rate is much lower when you're offering dinner- the girls are showing up to get a free meal!

I am surprised, though, that you have an 80% flake rate on drink dates- that seems very high. Maybe that's just due to you being in LA.

I haven't ever found a correlation between a girls educational level or socioeconomic status and her willingness to do a drink date. Those girls who have to show up for work early mornings, regardless of their job, are reluctant to do late night drinks during the week which is understandable.

You say that meals are the best thing you have found to allow the first date discomfort to pass. I disagree- alcohol, with its inhibition lowering effect, is the best thing i have found for this. In my experience, eating a meal together tends to make things more stiff, formal and awkward, while drinking makes the interaction more casual and spontaneous and fun.

Food makes the absorption of alcohol into the girls system much slower, plus makes her feel less energetic. This is not good for her receptivity to your escalation.

You said "My approach seems to be working decently but more in a "few dates to lay" way," . Exactly-when you push food into a girl you are triggering her provider/boyfriend circuitry. If you do get the lay, it's going to cost you a lot more in time , money and effort.

Starting kino immediately and escalating throughout the date is critical-how do you do that effectively when you are sitting across the table from her and you are both stone sober?

What is your meet to bang conversion ratio for online dates? Mine averages 50% over time and most of the 50% I didn't bang were because I didn't want to bang them due to lack of attractiveness or an obnoxious personality. Quite a few of my online bangs- about half- have been SNLs too. I only do drink dates for online first meetings; I'm sure if I did meal dates my conversion rate would be significantly lower.

You're doing very well at closing girls on numbers and meetings, but it looks like you're backing off too much when it gets to crunch time. I would consider whether the reason you prefer meal dates isn't because they are more effective than drink dates, but because you are simply more comfortable with them because they feel like a traditional date and you can take the sexual escalation slower and spread it out over several dates.

I recommend you try an experiment- do drink dates ONLY for the next 60 days. Nothing else-if a girl won't go for it or flakes just next her, or hit her up another time. When you do get a girl out, have it in your mind that you are going to do everything you can to bang her that night. Bounce her around venues. Get her to do a couple of shots. Create a fun vibe. Escalate kino gradually but aggressively using the kino escalation ladder. Kiss her before no more than 2/3 of the date has elapsed. Use the First Date Bang formula if you wish. Figure out the logistics. Just go for it. At the end of the 60 days see which approach, drinks or a meal, works better for you.

[EasyMoney]

Don't buy girls meals. A girl who will only meet you under her conditions is already one who you've lost the frame with. The insistence on meeting during the day for "lunch" or for an "early dinner" or even worse the "i don't really drink girl" is basically just a shit test.

I met my last bang on okcupid. We bantered for a little bit, then I asked her for the drink date. She resisted. She wanted to do a Sunday afternoon lunch date. Now philosophically I just won't do that. But I actually had a legitimate excuse why I couldn't, which I used. Even if you don't have one, make one up. I did not counteroffer; I just declined the suggestion. She hits me back the next day saying drinks are fine.

Its a shit test man. And if you say no to meals, and she never hits you back - who gives a fuck? Next.

[smashley]

Thanks for the input guys.

I reread and digested my post as well as yours and I think you have some valid points.

MR. XY
Thanks for the post, it helped. Maybe my flake rate for the drink date is just a bad sample size, but I will experiment some more...Posing it different ways etc. I will accept your challenge and try to go with the drink date only. I think you're right that it's not necessarily that they don't drink, but that they have work or some obligation the next day and can't be out boozing too hard before work which is what bothers them. I usually only date really petite girls so 1 drink gets them drunk or hard buzzed. I also usually only do weekday dates. They will have to deal with it I guess if theyre interested. Also, I only like to drink 1-3 drinks a night myself, and the drink dynamic goes quickly which i have to work on. Nerves or the social setting tends to make me drink faster and a few venue changes seem to go by so fast. I will have to work to build comfort in the fast setting. Just talking/Flirting/kino escalation after the first drink and hanging out without getting another may be best here to slow down time.

One of the aspects of the food date i liked was afterwards if she was cool to bounce with me to the next activity and felt comfortable driving with me or her, i knew i was in. And i felt like it broke a barrier that she knew me sober and I was cool and confident sober and it wasn't just the alcohol i needed to be confident. I will need to experiment here i guess. I guess I can still apply the venue change it will just be slightly different in walking somewhere or driving if it's only one drink and i'm still sober. I will have to logistically space out the drink venues. The sober game I will have to think about to interact a little sober so she get's to know me that way too. I am still good at kinoing sober and i have had zero girls so far take any issue with it. My dinner dates have always been like cafe type venues where I pull my chair next to theirs diagonally which gives me touch range..

Question for you though Mr. XY... What time of night are you usually scheduling your drink dates?? Specific time range if possible. Happy hour or past 8? Past 8 they get worried about their work the next day, and happy hour is tough with work and other commitments. Most of my past dates have been in the 6:30-7:30 region. Just comparing notes again..

EasyMoney:

Thanks for the reassurance. I will always keep this in mind when setting up the date. I will stick to my guns or next...

[EasyMoney]

No problemo man. A date with a girl without frame control is a waste of time. Remember that. It's hard to have that self confidence and abundance mentality, but you'll achieve it.

[WanderingSoul]

I'll go to dinner with you OP. I may or may not put out, but I'll certainly go to dinner since you are buying.

[smashley]

Only if you're petite with a nice ass and its under $15

[smashley]

0 for 1 so far... Tried the drinks and got a late night cancellation for today. Obvious excuse. Would of bet $100 bucks she was going to show too. Long responses showed good interest. Will keep trying to convert.

[Veloce]

Here's my take.

A few years ago I took a girl out on a first date for sushi. The whole thing wound up costing me like $180. Whatever, not gonna break the bank and this chick was a solid 8. I got a makeout session, I could have weaselled a bang out of it, but my game wasn't tight enough. I swore it would be the last time I take a girl out for a meal BEFORE I bang her and I've stuck to it. The vibe I caught was I was falling right into her trap and making her happy, instead of making her horny.

However you have to be careful about telling girls, "Let's grab a drink" because when you explicitly mention alcohol she's going to assume you just mean sex and you'll see your flake rate increase.

There are ways around this.

Make plans for dinner and then the day of tell her, "Something important at work came up. Running late. Lets just meet after dinner"

You don't mention alcohol, now she has to fend for herself for food, but you're still meeting up at a vague venue under vague circumstances.

It can be as easy as changing your verbage or text game. Instead of "Let's grab a drink" try "Lets hang" or "Lets get together" or "lets meet up".

[TheBulldozer]

(09-23-2012 01:24 AM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

Here's my take.

A few years ago I took a girl out on a first date for sushi. The whole thing wound up costing me like $180. Whatever, not gonna break the bank and this chick was a solid 8. I got a makeout session, I could have weaselled a bang out of it, but my game wasn't tight enough. I swore it would be the last time I take a girl out for a meal BEFORE I bang her and I've stuck to it. The vibe I caught was I was falling right into her trap and making her happy, instead of making her horny.

However you have to be careful about telling girls, "Let's grab a drink" because when you explicitly mention alcohol she's going to assume you just mean sex and you'll see your flake rate increase.

There are ways around this.

Make plans for dinner and then the day of tell her, "Something important at work came up. Running late. Lets just meet after dinner"

You don't mention alcohol, now she has to fend for herself for food, but you're still meeting up at a vague venue under vague circumstances.

It can be as easy as changing your verbage or text game. Instead of "Let's grab a drink" try "Lets hang" or "Lets get together" or "lets meet up".

I feel like a large portion of date game is location dependent. In that, depending on the size and layout of the city you live in, you will get different responses from women when framing a drink date. In a place like NYC or Boston, a "let's grab drinks" date assumes that dinner has been eaten, and is generally low investment because catching up with friends for drinks on a weeknight is highly plausible thing to do for the people in that city, whereas a smaller city people just don't get in their car and drive 25 minutes to meet up on a weeknight at a local bar to shoot the shit.

OP, how would you describe your location?

[gringochileno]

The best way to efficiently get notches out of dating is already on this forum. It's Tuthmosis's first date bang recipe. I strongly suspect that any increase in flakes that you get from pushing to meet for drinks right away will be made up for by the increased closing percentage that you get from optimizing your logistics with Tuth's method. Don't sweat the chicks who are turned off by meeting at a bar--they're likely to be the ones that wouldn't put out easily anyway.

[Hades]

Dinner dates just make it harderon yourself. Don't do it until the bang
One tip. This takes balls, but threaten to leave if they don't take the drink you buy them. Rant about how nobody accepts generosity these days, you can't trust anyone, how foreigners view alcohol, or how she's insultingyou and being rude.

[smashley]

(09-23-2012 01:24 AM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

Here's my take.

A few years ago I took a girl out on a first date for sushi. The whole thing wound up costing me like $180. Whatever, not gonna break the bank and this chick was a solid 8. I got a makeout session, I could have weaselled a bang out of it, but my game wasn't tight enough. I swore it would be the last time I take a girl out for a meal BEFORE I bang her and I've stuck to it. The vibe I caught was I was falling right into her trap and making her happy, instead of making her horny.

However you have to be careful about telling girls, "Let's grab a drink" because when you explicitly mention alcohol she's going to assume you just mean sex and you'll see your flake rate increase.

There are ways around this.

Make plans for dinner and then the day of tell her, "Something important at work came up. Running late. Lets just meet after dinner"

You don't mention alcohol, now she has to fend for herself for food, but you're still meeting up at a vague venue under vague circumstances.

It can be as easy as changing your verbage or text game. Instead of "Let's grab a drink" try "Lets hang" or "Lets get together" or "lets meet up".

I like this and have already started implementing a bit. Hopefully it gives good results. I had another flake with the drinks, but then i had one yesterday that showed. I will experiment more... I do text to setup dates and maybe this could be the problem with the drink dates. building up enough comfort first...i'm good on the phone too but don't usually because i know some girls don't feel comfortable on the phone.. But now i'm thinking maybe with drinks, building up verbal first may increase the drink shows... I will try calling a few first to setup with the drink date to experiment..

[smashley]

(09-23-2012 05:31 PM)MaleDefined Wrote:  

(09-23-2012 01:24 AM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

Here's my take.

A few years ago I took a girl out on a first date for sushi. The whole thing wound up costing me like $180. Whatever, not gonna break the bank and this chick was a solid 8. I got a makeout session, I could have weaselled a bang out of it, but my game wasn't tight enough. I swore it would be the last time I take a girl out for a meal BEFORE I bang her and I've stuck to it. The vibe I caught was I was falling right into her trap and making her happy, instead of making her horny.

However you have to be careful about telling girls, "Let's grab a drink" because when you explicitly mention alcohol she's going to assume you just mean sex and you'll see your flake rate increase.

There are ways around this.

Make plans for dinner and then the day of tell her, "Something important at work came up. Running late. Lets just meet after dinner"

You don't mention alcohol, now she has to fend for herself for food, but you're still meeting up at a vague venue under vague circumstances.

It can be as easy as changing your verbage or text game. Instead of "Let's grab a drink" try "Lets hang" or "Lets get together" or "lets meet up".

I feel like a large portion of date game is location dependent. In that, depending on the size and layout of the city you live in, you will get different responses from women when framing a drink date. In a place like NYC or Boston, a "let's grab drinks" date assumes that dinner has been eaten, and is generally low investment because catching up with friends for drinks on a weeknight is highly plausible thing to do for the people in that city, whereas a smaller city people just don't get in their car and drive 25 minutes to meet up on a weeknight at a local bar to shoot the shit.

OP, how would you describe your location?

I'm in LA. So it is a bit spread out. Most of the girls ive been dating have been in the 10-30 minute range and of course traffic issues... Public transportation sucks so it could be an issue as well with them worrying about driving... I think it could be a factor.

Also, maybe time of day is an issue.. I was trying 5-7. maybe 8 or 9 would be preferred for the drink. Could be the issue but i would think if they wanted to they would have corrected and recommended 8-9. My logic was I thought about their work the next day and i felt 5-7 would give me time to bounce a place or two before they're worried so much about going home because of work the next day. Gave me some time to work with. Will experiment with 8-9 as well.

[smashley]

(09-23-2012 06:35 PM)gringochileno Wrote:  

The best way to efficiently get notches out of dating is already on this forum. It's Tuthmosis's first date bang recipe. I strongly suspect that any increase in flakes that you get from pushing to meet for drinks right away will be made up for by the increased closing percentage that you get from optimizing your logistics with Tuth's method. Don't sweat the chicks who are turned off by meeting at a bar--they're likely to be the ones that wouldn't put out easily anyway.

Good point... Agree.. Think its a stupid thing to flake for, but just dont want to miss out on some bangs because of poor verbage in the date setup..

[smashley]

(09-24-2012 03:31 PM)Hades Wrote:  

Dinner dates just make it harderon yourself. Don't do it until the bang
One tip. This takes balls, but threaten to leave if they don't take the drink you buy them. Rant about how nobody accepts generosity these days, you can't trust anyone, how foreigners view alcohol, or how she's insultingyou and being rude.

The issue is getting them to the date in the first place. Once they show i have no issues and they don't reject drinks or dates, it's just them flaking before i get the chance/before they meet me in the flesh. I play it pretty straight in my online convos coming up to the date ask, that's why i was wondering if the date choice was bombing it or it was just things that are out of my control... I think just flakes, but some may be scared of the drinking till they know i'm not a rapist..

[EisenBarde]

My rule of thumb is never to take a girl to a place to eat where you don't pay upfront. You order your own food and pay for it, if she's hungry she can get something for herself.

If you are on a date, it needs to be because she wants to spend time with you, not because she'll get a meal out of it. Reward feminine behavior later with nice things like that, but never offer it upfront.

[anewtypedude]

I have a similar problem with getting girls to drink. I am in an Asian heavy area and most Asian girls are just not into drinking. In their culture, they only drink if there are other foods on the table. Plus, I myself am not a big drinker. Going to the bar is just not congruent with my game. I can get girls out to dinner (we usually split the bills) but never out to drink.

If there is an alternate first-date bang method other than going for drinks, I would like to know.

[seeker04542]

(09-25-2012 04:53 AM)anewtypedude Wrote:  

I have a similar problem with getting girls to drink. I am in an Asian heavy area and most Asian girls are just not into drinking. In their culture, they only drink if there are other foods on the table. Plus, I myself am not a big drinker. Going to the bar is just not congruent with my game. I can get girls out to dinner (we usually split the bills) but never out to drink.

If there is an alternate first-date bang method other than going for drinks, I would like to know.

If you're dealing with girls who don't do the bar thing but will drink with some food in front of them take them to tapas places (they love that Spanish vibe to boot). Or invite them to a brewpub by saying they have the most amazing chicken wings (or mozzarella sticks, or whatever, it's just to imply that the two of you will be ordering some kind of food).

(When I was in L.A. years ago [Santa Monica?] there was a high-end Japanese place that described itself as a Japanese version of tapas, I forget the name and don't know if this kind of place is common on the West Coast [actually I don't even know where you're located I'm just guessing] but you could look around.)

[haywire]

The more time I spend in the game the more I realize how important a role logistics play. I have deliberately tried out certain experiments like coffee dates, dinner dates, lunch dates just to see if I can pull something off now that I have better "game", but sadly it doesn't happen. Women are emotional creatures, they just want the right vibe/atmosphere for something to happen, unlike us guys who would gladly makeout/bang at 1 in the afternoon. On the flip side, whenever I have taken women to this "great view" spot in my city, I have had a 100% makeout close rate.

Anyways, getting back to your case, I too think an 80% flake rate for drink dates is really high and most likely it has to do with you shooting for the 5-7 slot. You gotta remember a lot of women won't "feel" like drinking around that time but they would certainly "feel" like having dinner at that time, so you should go for times after 8:30 when going for drinks.

If you still think dinner gets you a higher meetup rate, you could try a variation of the the G manifesto's three point swoop move:
http://www.thegmanifesto.com/2011/05/thr...-move.html