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Thoughts on living abroad
#1

Thoughts on living abroad

Some guy on my blog posted two excellent comments about living abroad and travel. Here's the first:

http://www.rooshv.com/whats-wrong-with-a...ment-30510

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Great post. Makes me want to have brew with you and soak this in some more. I quit my corporate gig right after I got my Y2K bonus and was banking on the stock market bubble. Six months later I was living in Spain. My initial trip was for 8 weeks, but I stayed for a year. A year later I knew I could never go back to a job like that again (the high paid, lots of hours kind). I felt like I broke out of the matrix and realized that lots of other countries were living it up so much better than we Americans. I tried to break some of my friends out of the matrix, but there were no takers. Its hard to convert people who have been institutionalized for so long. Lots of people I worked with would say, “Oh, I wish I could do that.” Most of them young and single. I would tell them you can, but you can’t do it while paying for that BMW in the driveway at the same time. After a sigh, they would all choose the BMW.

I realize a lot of Americans don’t like hearing that America is not so great in some ways. America is the greatest country in many ways that matter… if you happen to be a country. I grew up comfortable in the knowledge that we had the largest most technically advanced economy, that we had the most powerful military, that we had the best universities, the best hospitals, most material wealth, best movies and TV, and the hottest women, etc, etc, ad nauseum (poor me, I was so naive). After living abroad and over time realizing what I had been missing, but not knowing what to with my life; I had a hard time coming to grips with realization that my wealthy American lifestyle was so lacking compared to my materially humble lifestyle in various other countries. All those great stats that show the USA is #1 just did not translate into a better quality of life for me or most other people, as far as I could tell. It wasn’t an easy transformation. At first I had major TV and junk food withdrawals for months. The side benefit was I literally walked my ass off and lost 3 inches in my jeans. My social life and sex life elevated to a level that is basically unobtainable within the US. Throw on top all I learned and all the great friends I made, there was no way I could just go home and plug back in again.

How could I have been so blind for so long? I was totally indoctrinated by American culture and values that I had grown up with. I saw 2 movies abroad that I skipped in ’90s because I was too busy poring over RFCs for my job while Seinfeld and Friends played in the background. They were Fight Club and Office Space. Ironically two American movies in English in a non-English speaking country. They resonated with me all the more since they validated and put into words the path I had already started.

When I got home after that first trip I noticed a few things. First, how fat everyone was. Seriously, it took me two weeks to cope with that alone. The other thing was how bland and unfulfilling life in America was. And I’m still not over that. I now felt like a foreigner in my own country. I had changed and had experiences that just would not permit me to integrate back into American society to the way I was before. It’s why I no longer live full time in America any more. I have no idea if this is how returning troops feel when they return, but I’m slightly different now and feel slightly foreign and just not being able to connect with friends at home the same as before. This is actually a pretty shitty feeling, but who knew it would happen?

I’ve had the conversation so many times with my stateside compatriots, even the ones I grew up with who have taken the obligatory packaged vacations abroad. It’s like discussing sex with a eunuch. If you haven’t experienced significant time abroad… enough time to look back at America from very different vantage points, you are just not going to understand what some people in this thread already know.

Second comment:

http://www.rooshv.com/6-step-strategy-fo...ment-30521

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I have to disagree with Tom and Chris. I was living the proverbial American dream in my twenties. I had made it and was a winner, not a loser. I thought, is this as good as it gets? Because I began to feel an ever increasing void, but couldn’t figure out what was wrong. So I went abroad for a change of scenery. I’ve been gone for 10 years now and there isn’t any novelty to wear off. For me, it’s about living a fulfilling, interesting and meaningful life. I am nearing the end of my thirties now. This isn’t some youthful flight of fancy, this is my fleeting life. I couldn’t imagine spending my 40s in the US now. Fifteen years ago, I wouldn’t have traded the US for anything, but we live and learn.

Yes, I frequently come back to the states because I have to. Parents’ health issues, friends, etc. And yes, I’ve known people who lived abroad for years and felt they had to go back to the states. I notice real qualitative differences between people like me and people like that. Usually, they never actually overcome their American cultural indoctrination. They usually never truly immerse themselves in the country they are in. Even after years they are still measuring themselves against their peers in America over all this meaningless crap. Often times they are living in an ex-pat bubble spending a good amount of time reminiscing about America and longing to rejoin the corporate hive. I’ve known more than one American who basically went back because their lives were incomplete without American spectator sports. If watching NBA and NFL is your primary reason for being and you are unable to ween yourself off these time sinks that steal the best years of your life then you are institutionalized and irretrievable. Honestly, if you take pride in the thought that America produces the best NBA and NFL players in the world and this factors into your state of emotional well-being then you have issues. If you are living vicariously through a large screen TV you have issues. If you are addicted to video games, you have issues. If you buy Axe deodorant because you saw a commercial, you are in need of serious deprogramming. Just rub some salt on your armpits and get a clue. Good luck to you. This life abroad ain’t for everyone.

Just to round this out. If you want to live abroad you are going to need income and a plan. If this requires going back home for a year or longer to save up and begin to figure out a long term income stream that’s fine. If you want to live abroad and live the life, then you are going to have to become an entrepreneur. Let me reiterate, to live long term outside the US you are gong to have to become an entrepreneur. Which primarily means an entrepreneurial mindset in all your long term thinking. That means being resourceful, creative and doing things you might not have previously considered. You need to get hungry. Don’t hold back, your life is already becoming more interesting. You are going to have to think outside the box to apply all the talents and creativity that your American employer has no use for and probably discourages.

If you haven’t used these assets in a while then it will be tough starting out. Probably very tough. You need to learn to deal with failure and how to recover and persevere. Learn from how reality shreds your best laid plans and continue to improve and execute them. Course correct by learning what not to do. Continue to innovate. You can take short term jobs in a foreign country as a camarero or language professor or maybe even manage a white collar corporate gig. Maybe if you find a town to settle down in, even a bricks and mortar business. However, in my experience if you can make your livelihood online, that will give you the greatest flexibility. Do you have a skill that people will pay for online? Can you write and sell a book like Roosh? Can you build a website that sells advertising?

Basically this all boils down to running your own life on your own terms and not continuing to exist in a soul destroying corporation. No its not easy, it took me years to make real money online. It takes time and you may have to work in corporate fashion for a while or even a long while, but eventually you will begin to exert more and more authority over your own time and what you do with it. Its about taking control of your life and actually living it rather than sacrificing your life so your kids can grow up and train for a white collar career in corporate-dronism at State U.
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#2

Thoughts on living abroad

This guy's long-term goals sound similar to mind. I want an international lifestyle. I want to be mobile and flexible with the ability to get up and go if I see fit. I just don't know if I can see myself as the married guy with 3 kids working 50 hours a week with a tract house in a soul-less suburb, suv and big screen tv. I'm not saying necessarily that I want to move abroad permanently, but I would like to spend extended time in various countries. Also very importantly is that I want to develop multiple sources of income. Having a 9-5 job is putting your income eggs all in one basket. Diversification of income stream is as good an idea as diversification of investments.

My main difference with this guy is that I don't come with a disdain for America per se. I don't usually feel bad coming back home. I may miss the places I visited, but America is my home and it does feel good when the plane touches down at LAX. I also think it depends on where your home is in the U.S. This country varies pretty widely in lifestyle, quality of girls, things to do and such. America is not a bad place to be at all if you're in one of the nicer parts of the country. I just don't want to feel stuck here either.

There are some logistical things about long-term life abroad. Things like heath care insurance, planning for an eventual retirement when you're old since you're not going the corporate route.
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#3

Thoughts on living abroad

Those two comments are some of the best things I have read on the internet.
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#4

Thoughts on living abroad

In my opinion, CASH FLOW (esp. one that sets you significantly apart from the vast majority local population) + PUSSY FLOW (esp. of a higher quality than the U.S.) means you will *never* want to go back to the U.S.

When either of these flows are interrupted, then you start hearing all kinds of excuses from guys as to why they really want to go back home.

The spice must flow.
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#5

Thoughts on living abroad

BUMP. For some, the american middle class lifestyle just doesn't cut it.

Being an entrepreneur (creating an automated online business), can be combined with other odd jobs over seas (like teaching english), as a stepping stone to higher rolling.
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#6

Thoughts on living abroad

I think it depends heavily where you are an expat. You can live in parts of the world for decades and you are still an outsider and will always be an outsider because you don't look like everyone else.

In some places having expat friends is crucial. Just bc you have expat friends doesn't mean you sit around and talk about how great your home country is. They have more in common with you than the locals sometimes, and you share common interests.

I'm a redneck, i shoot animals, I eat animals, can't do that in most countries. I like going to concerts, i like football games, not available abroad. Yes they have concerts abroad but maybe not your favorite band or the type of music you like.

So if you like NBA or NFL you're an idiot? Only his interests and hobbies are worthy of pursuit?. If you don't miss your home country I don't see how that makes you a better expat. To me it makes you bitter about your home country.

I like the US but I like living abroad. I like working in the US bc the legal system and I 100% understand how things and people work. Abroad good luck with that.

In a perfect world i'd work in the US and live abroad. Until Star Trek "beaming technology" arrives it can't be done.

Been an expat for about 7 years.

For me the true expat doesn't think people in America or wherever are sheep or robots or idiots. My friends in the US make 6 figures and are happy, just bc I have traveled I don't think I am a better person or wiser, I don't need to rationalize my decisions vs my peers, bc I know I did what is right for me. I don't judge their decisions and they don't judge mine, we each took a path.
Many expats are miserable, not everyone can/should be an expat. It doesn't make them worse, just different.

Everyone who travels thinks they are so open minded. They're clearly not, bc if you have to bad mouth how someone else chooses to live their life, to justify your life, then you have still learned nothing in all your travels.

You're open minded enough not to criticise people in foreign lands but still too closed minded to accept people in your homeland who want to stay there. The notion that you are better bc your passport has more stamps is ridiculous, ur clinging to it like they cling to materialism.
One is no better than the other.
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#7

Thoughts on living abroad

another thing, just because you're an expat doesn't mean that you don't work 9-5.

On the contrary, most expats work 9-5. Businessmen, teachers, government workers, etc. are still logging in 40+ hours a week, still have set vacations etc. They have more flexibility and are living abroad but they are still working set schedules.

Very few start a bar or restaraunt and just hang out and drink and bang all day. The majority that start a business work very hard just like back home. After years of doing it then you can possibly take it easy and let some local take the reigns while you watch over.

Food for though for any rookies out there that might get a little too excited that the grass is much greener abroad.

I love the expat life, but it is no cake walk.
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#8

Thoughts on living abroad

The writer gives great advice but some of his information is too judgmental.

I think he assumes he is living a better life than all the American drones.

I mean, if life abroad is so amazing, why are so many internationals flocking to the USA?

Practically every international student I know in college is shitting bricks senior year, doing their best to find some form of employment to get a visa extension so they can stay.

Had to give a sad handshake goodbye to a buddy who didn't get accepted to any medical schools in the U.S. and had to move back to Ecuador.

They don't want to leave.

I haven't done the research, but I am assuming that America is one of if not the top place for internationals to immigrate and settle.

I get it. The corporate life is not what it is cracked up to be.

But that doesn't mean the grass is greener on the other side either.
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#9

Thoughts on living abroad

Quote: (03-12-2012 11:28 AM)Commander Shepard Wrote:  

The writer gives great advice but some of his information is too judgmental.

I think he assumes he is living a better life than all the American drones.

I mean, if life abroad is so amazing, why are so many internationals flocking to the USA?

Practically every international student I know in college is shitting bricks senior year, doing their best to find some form of employment to get a visa extension so they can stay.

Had to give a sad handshake goodbye to a buddy who didn't get accepted to any medical schools in the U.S. and had to move back to Ecuador.

They don't want to leave.

I haven't done the research, but I am assuming that America is one of if not the top place for internationals to immigrate and settle.

I get it. The corporate life is not what it is cracked up to be.

But that doesn't mean the grass is greener on the other side either.

The real reason is this. The opportunities those people have in their home countries are sparce. My current gf makes about the equivalent of 100 american dollars a month...Here there is an opportunity for them to make better money. We don't realize how lucky we are in that regard. In fact many of us cry about how we can't find "good paying" work. I'm confident when i say 99% of the world would love to trade lifes with you. The advantage we have is easy access to money which can then be brought abroad and make us go from middle class to wealthy.
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#10

Thoughts on living abroad

A lot of good points. Except the salt in the armpits, ill stick to my Burberry Touch at $75 a bottle. I don't have a car payment so I can splurge a little.
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#11

Thoughts on living abroad

Canada is #1 immigration spot. Getting in US is too hard but most still want to come here, it's just too hard.

Most that come to study here want to stay for work.

America hating/bashing is too fun to pass up on, but most people would give their left nut to be in the States or be from the States.

Bad mouth it all you want but i've seen what it's like in many other places and the advantages we have are tremendous (granted not unique, Canada, Uk, Australia, Germany, etc.)

Not saying we are best or any garbage like that, but I'd rather be a 23 yo American living in the States than a Greek, Spaniard, or any 3rd or 2nd world country, where they can't find jobs, and can't travel to any country to teach English and make a liveable wage.

Unemployment in the West is a middle class income in the majority of countries.

A waiter in the US makes more than an engineer with 10 years of experience in most of the world.

A billion people in China make less than $7 a day
75% of Indians make less than $2 a day.

I can make $100+ a night for serving some food and wine in a restraunt.

Have some perspective here folks. We have the option to leave, most don't.
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#12

Thoughts on living abroad

Although I do agree with many of sentiments expressed in the original comment I think redneckpunk has posted an excellent rebuttal. Many of my observations mirror his.

In countries like the United States, Canada, and I assume, Australia and New Zealand, one can come and assimilate into the mainstream culture. It seems like parts of Western Europe such as the UK, France, Belgium, and the Netherlands, are also somewhat like this. These are societies that have been multicultural for years. If you learn the language and try to adapt to the culture you can find genuine social inclusion. You can be part of the gang.

Try that in Asia, the Middle East, Scandinavia, the Soviet Bloc. It's not going to happen. Even if you speak the language flawlessly and have money or a good job, you'll always just be that foreign guy. You won't ever be accepted and your opinions will always be discounted as being foreign. There are of course benefits to being an outsider like many of us have discovered but you should ask yourself if that's how you want to spend the rest of your life.

After working and traveling abroad for the better part of four and half years I've developed a much greater appreciation of where I come from and what makes that place so special. That doesn't mean that I want to rush back to the States tomorrow and start working 55 hours a week in a corporate office. I definitely don't want to do that but I feel less distain for those people that do live that lifestyle than I did a couple years ago. To each his own. You can enact your vision of a proper life and I'll enact mine.
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#13

Thoughts on living abroad

Great posts but the same negative aspects mentioned are very prevalent in Canada as well. I look forward to working 4-6 months per year in Canada and spending the rest of my time traveling, hopefully for many years to come.
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#14

Thoughts on living abroad

off topic but Scotian...I'd love a breakdown of ur thougts of Cali vs Bogota or any other cities you hit in Colombia. No rush, but I would be interested in differences of girls, vibe of city, nightlife, food, whatever. gracias
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#15

Thoughts on living abroad

Quote: (03-12-2012 03:45 PM)redneckpunk Wrote:  

off topic but Scotian...I'd love a breakdown of ur thougts of Cali vs Bogota or any other cities you hit in Colombia. No rush, but I would be interested in differences of girls, vibe of city, nightlife, food, whatever. gracias

I have one more month left in Colombia (Bogota) and I plan on breaking it down in one big data sheet when I leave. I don't think I'll make it to Medellin or Cartagena this time (I'll be back for sure though and will hit them up then), but I will write about where I've been; Bogota, Cali, Santa Marta and Barranquilla.
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#16

Thoughts on living abroad

Quote: (03-12-2012 03:50 PM)scotian Wrote:  

Quote: (03-12-2012 03:45 PM)redneckpunk Wrote:  

off topic but Scotian...I'd love a breakdown of ur thougts of Cali vs Bogota or any other cities you hit in Colombia. No rush, but I would be interested in differences of girls, vibe of city, nightlife, food, whatever. gracias

I have one more month left in Colombia (Bogota) and I plan on breaking it down in one big data sheet when I leave. I don't think I'll make it to Medellin or Cartagena this time (I'll be back for sure though and will hit them up then), but I will write about where I've been; Bogota, Cali, Santa Marta and Barranquilla.

So far, what is your favorite?
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#17

Thoughts on living abroad

Quote: (03-12-2012 09:35 AM)redneckpunk Wrote:  

I'm a redneck, i shoot animals, I eat animals, can't do that in most countries.

lmao
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#18

Thoughts on living abroad

Quote: (03-12-2012 12:36 PM)redneckpunk Wrote:  

Canada is #1 immigration spot. Getting in US is too hard but most still want to come here, it's just too hard.

Most that come to study here want to stay for work.

America hating/bashing is too fun to pass up on, but most people would give their left nut to be in the States or be from the States.

Bad mouth it all you want but i've seen what it's like in many other places and the advantages we have are tremendous (granted not unique, Canada, Uk, Australia, Germany, etc.)

Not saying we are best or any garbage like that, but I'd rather be a 23 yo American living in the States than a Greek, Spaniard, or any 3rd or 2nd world country, where they can't find jobs, and can't travel to any country to teach English and make a liveable wage.


Have some perspective here folks. We have the option to leave, most don't.

I think the issue most of us have with America is the path it is on.

It is getting worse.

It just isn't the same "America" that it was when we were kids. Freedom is being eroded at every turn.

This is why there is a lot of "America Bashing".

And then we are over-sold the line how "America is the best country in the world and every other country sucks. America even has the hottest girls".

Hence the bitterness towards the place.
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#19

Thoughts on living abroad

Quote: (03-12-2012 12:36 PM)redneckpunk Wrote:  

Canada is #1 immigration spot. Getting in US is too hard but most still want to come here, it's just too hard.

Most that come to study here want to stay for work.

America hating/bashing is too fun to pass up on, but most people would give their left nut to be in the States or be from the States.

Bad mouth it all you want but i've seen what it's like in many other places and the advantages we have are tremendous (granted not unique, Canada, Uk, Australia, Germany, etc.)

Not saying we are best or any garbage like that, but I'd rather be a 23 yo American living in the States than a Greek, Spaniard, or any 3rd or 2nd world country, where they can't find jobs, and can't travel to any country to teach English and make a liveable wage.

Unemployment in the West is a middle class income in the majority of countries.

A waiter in the US makes more than an engineer with 10 years of experience in most of the world.

A billion people in China make less than $7 a day
75% of Indians make less than $2 a day.

I can make $100+ a night for serving some food and wine in a restraunt.

Have some perspective here folks. We have the option to leave, most don't.

Yup. Me too. + 1
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#20

Thoughts on living abroad

Quote: (03-12-2012 04:03 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

Quote: (03-12-2012 03:50 PM)scotian Wrote:  

Quote: (03-12-2012 03:45 PM)redneckpunk Wrote:  

off topic but Scotian...I'd love a breakdown of ur thougts of Cali vs Bogota or any other cities you hit in Colombia. No rush, but I would be interested in differences of girls, vibe of city, nightlife, food, whatever. gracias

I have one more month left in Colombia (Bogota) and I plan on breaking it down in one big data sheet when I leave. I don't think I'll make it to Medellin or Cartagena this time (I'll be back for sure though and will hit them up then), but I will write about where I've been; Bogota, Cali, Santa Marta and Barranquilla.

So far, what is your favorite?

G, I like Bogota the best because its big, cosmopolitan and has a very diverse nightlife compared to the other cities that I've been to so far, only things I don't like about it are the rainy weather and pollution.
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#21

Thoughts on living abroad

I think the original comments about the relative value of living abroad are in the context of 2 important factors:
1) being an entrepreneur
2) having a relative status boost of being a white skinned westerner in a foreign land.

People who bring up the idea of "well, if the US sucks so much, how come everyone wants to move here?" are missing these important contexts.

A few years ago as an entrepreneur I'd choose to stay in SE Asia for those two reasons - my money goes further (when it is earned in US$ as an entrepreneur) and I can date more young women easier here. Now that my income is up to western standard, I'll still stay here for the 2nd reason.

Of course if dating young women is not important to you, and you prefer a high paying salary, then there isn't much reason to expat.
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#22

Thoughts on living abroad

It's easy to make money in Murka because all anybody cares about is making money.

It's easy to leave Murka because all anybody cares about is making money.
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#23

Thoughts on living abroad

Add Switzerland to this point.

The sheer passive aggressive hostility that I encounter in this place is just amazing. The locals have this superficial vibe that they are open to cultural assimilation by immigrants and expats, but just 2-3 months of living here can expose that as totally hollow and false. If any swiss person debates that, I just point to the ghettoisation taking place in any swiss city. There are clear cut distinct living areas for swiss and foreigners.

On top of that, any criticism of the country is brushed aside with the most vigorous of rebuttals. Try to bring up the topic of WWII gold stored in the swiss vaults and see how it raises the hackles of even the most moderately disposed swiss person.

It is by far the best run country that I have ever lived in. But it is far from the best place to live in.



Quote: (03-12-2012 01:50 PM)jdreise Wrote:  

Although I do agree with many of sentiments expressed in the original comment I think redneckpunk has posted an excellent rebuttal. Many of my observations mirror his.

In countries like the United States, Canada, and I assume, Australia and New Zealand, one can come and assimilate into the mainstream culture. It seems like parts of Western Europe such as the UK, France, Belgium, and the Netherlands, are also somewhat like this. These are societies that have been multicultural for years. If you learn the language and try to adapt to the culture you can find genuine social inclusion. You can be part of the gang.

Try that in Asia, the Middle East, Scandinavia, the Soviet Bloc. It's not going to happen. Even if you speak the language flawlessly and have money or a good job, you'll always just be that foreign guy. You won't ever be accepted and your opinions will always be discounted as being foreign. There are of course benefits to being an outsider like many of us have discovered but you should ask yourself if that's how you want to spend the rest of your life.

After working and traveling abroad for the better part of four and half years I've developed a much greater appreciation of where I come from and what makes that place so special. That doesn't mean that I want to rush back to the States tomorrow and start working 55 hours a week in a corporate office. I definitely don't want to do that but I feel less distain for those people that do live that lifestyle than I did a couple years ago. To each his own. You can enact your vision of a proper life and I'll enact mine.
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#24

Thoughts on living abroad

For me (after nearly five years of living abroad) it has become about increasing my quality of life AND status by virtually doing the same or even less work that I would do in the U.S. side just to be average.

At one point I calculated that even if I was just making 5 or 6 times the minimum salary in Colombia I could still do some serious damage and get as much pussy as today.

So in short, for me it is about having above average salary + pussy that does make the difference in man's life. You are willing to put with a lot of stuff when those things are going well.
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#25

Thoughts on living abroad

The income stream always seems to be the tricky part. While I think some people may be hopelessly addicted the american matrix, there are others who look at the numbers and can't figure how to make it add up. While you can pull chicks if you keep an eagle on your budget, being a broke foreigner in a strange land is probably not going to get you laid.

I know one has to work very hard to get it, but the advice I hear is always really vague on even which direction to go.

Thanks to the SPLC, the niche role of American guy traveling the world sleeping with women from every country he visits is now solidly owned by one person.
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