[Nomad77]

I disagree with Assanova assertions... Here is what I think. Just like a woman a man is the sum of various factors and looks are just one of them. For example:

Man 1: Looks (8) + Personality (4) + Status (4) + Game (4) = 20

Man 2: Looks (6) + Personality (6) + Status (2) + Game (6) = 20

Both will have an equal chance of pulling the same woman, IF everything else is equal.

(08-11-2012 03:59 PM)Juan Antonio Wrote:  

There seems to be an increasing trend towards "game denialism" in the seduction community. Guys are increasingly emphasizing "looks" over "game".

Assanova:

"One of the things that you'll see PUAs doing, is insisting that game works. I'm going to tell you why it appears to work in theory, but won't, in realistic situations. The biggest flaw in game, is that it fails to take into account competitors that are more physically attractive than the guy that uses game as most PUAs know it. This is probably the defacto reason why women are so flaky; there is a more physically attractive competitor in the picture somewhere.

When trying to prove that game works, what a lot of game theorists will do, is try to use examples of a girl with no social life, who most likely never goes to nightclubs, and therefore never really gets the opportunity to interact with physically attractive men. In other words, if a PUA does get one of those girls, usually in day game type situations, it's simply because the woman in question isn't interacting with physically attractive competitors.

Game theorists also like to selectively pick situations as examples of why game works. The most common examples are when the more physically attractive men are completely clueless and lack common sense, they aren't approaching the woman in question, or the more physically attractive man is the exception to the rule and is completely wimpy and beta because he is some kind of momma's boy.

That's just not the way things naturally work. Most physically attractive men do develop common sense, they eventually become self aware of their appearances, and they do eventually develop enough confidence to not be totally beta, simply because more muscular men and taller men are placed into alpha positions, are jocks, and are generally looked up to by other men. And on top of that, women fawn over their appearances, and they eventually get the hint; the more women that fawn over you, the less you value them.

You will never find a woman that will choose a physically unattractive guy with game, over a more physically attractive guy that has basic common sense and confidence. And if you do, it is the exception to the rule, and just isn't a likely scenario in everyday life. Unattractiveness and game will never out-perform looks with confidence. Never."

Is he right?

[Nomad77]

Yes, I am saying Game "can" compensate for less-than-stellar looks. Maybe I am wrong but I am assuming that Game is used primarily to influence a woman's emotions. And if you can do that effectively her emotions will cause her to view you as more attractive than some guy who is physically more attractive than you. A high status also effectively does the same thing. Now, there are limits if you are really ugly then you are going to have to pull a rabbit out of your hat...

But I believe women find low self-esteem and a needy attitude more repulsive than any kind of physical looks.

(08-11-2012 04:08 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

(08-11-2012 04:03 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

I came across some of these but none really addressed the issue of how do you compensate for lack of looks.

So, is what you're saying that game compensates for less-than-stellar looks?

[Tuthmosis]

(08-11-2012 04:20 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

Yes, I am saying Game "can" compensate for less-than-stellar looks. Maybe I am wrong but I am assuming that Game is used primarily to influence a woman's emotions. And if you can do that effectively her emotions will cause her to view you as more attractive than some guy who is physically more attractive than you.

   

Did you guys know that all those girls who claim to be "models" aren't always real models?

[Nomad77]

@Tuthmosis lol...good one but while this is something you may take for granted it's something most of my friends would vehemently disagree with.

[Gmac]

(08-11-2012 02:41 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

Sorry guys I wasn't aware that this forum was primarily for professional PUA. I certainly don't consider myself to be a PUA, much less a professional. I thought based on Roosh books that it was just a general forum for discussing various issues related to meeting women. And, I am a complete "newbie" when it comes to using a forum. Never posted on a forum before this one. And yes, I certainly need to work on my humility... With all of that said, I really am not seeking attention or fame - never really cared much for it. It is nice to get some private messages from people on here now and then saying how much I may have helped to clarify something though...

There are no PUA's here. Only men.

Oh and whenever a girl tells me she's a model I reply with, "Oh yeah? Who are you with?" - courtesy of G. The fakers will be shut down.

[MikeCF]

Hey guys. This thread reminded me of some questions that I wrestle with.

I have a huge zit on my nose. It's white and full of puss. I was thinking about popping it.

Should I?

I'm reluctant to pop the zit because my game is tight. Shouldn't my game overcome that zit?

Should I pluck my nose and ear hairs?

My pits are kinda smelly. Should I throw some baking soda under them?

Or Is Game Enough ™?

[MikeCF]

Damn, bro. This is legit. You should start a blog. You would attract thousands of readers.

I also like your non-conformist approach to quoting posts.

Sure, every guy here puts his response underneath the other poster's post.

But doing what everyone else does would be beta. You are too fucking cool to conform. That is awesome.

Please post more often.

I feel like we're about to make some major breakthroughs.

(08-11-2012 04:20 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

Yes, I am saying Game "can" compensate for less-than-stellar looks. Maybe I am wrong but I am assuming that Game is used primarily to influence a woman's emotions. And if you can do that effectively her emotions will cause her to view you as more attractive than some guy who is physically more attractive than you. A high status also effectively does the same thing. Now, there are limits if you are really ugly then you are going to have to pull a rabbit out of your hat...

But I believe women find low self-esteem and a needy attitude more repulsive than any kind of physical looks.

[hypesession]

This topic is played out.

You know what happened though, today I went for a run shirtless because I wanted to catch a tan and got gawked at by the young hot broads, who normally wouldn't give me a glance. always been that way.

My neighbor who is not a looker and on the chubby side, who usually is very friendly and sees me with a shirt on, wouldn't even look at me in the eye.

But still, if you're modelesque and don't know how to talk to bitches, you're going to be weak still, not to potential, but it sure helps.

This info has been put out already.

Quote:

Damn, bro. This is legit. You should start a blog. You would attract thousands of readers.

I also like your non-conformist approach to quoting posts.

Sure, every guy here puts his response underneath the other poster's post.

But doing what everyone else does would be beta. You are too fucking cool to conform. That is awesome.

Please post more often.

I feel like we're about to make some major breakthroughs.

[IpsaScientiaPotestasEst]

I think that picture/meme might have been one of the best replies I've ever seen on here. Hahahahahaha

(08-11-2012 06:47 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Damn, bro. This is legit. You should start a blog. You would attract thousands of readers.

I also like your non-conformist approach to quoting posts.

Sure, every guy here puts his response underneath the other poster's post.

But doing what everyone else does would be beta. You are too fucking cool to conform. That is awesome.

Please post more often.

I feel like we're about to make some major breakthroughs.

(08-11-2012 04:20 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

Yes, I am saying Game "can" compensate for less-than-stellar looks. Maybe I am wrong but I am assuming that Game is used primarily to influence a woman's emotions. And if you can do that effectively her emotions will cause her to view you as more attractive than some guy who is physically more attractive than you. A high status also effectively does the same thing. Now, there are limits if you are really ugly then you are going to have to pull a rabbit out of your hat...

But I believe women find low self-esteem and a needy attitude more repulsive than any kind of physical looks.

[Samseau]

The kicker is that he rates his own threads 5 stars.

[Hotwheels]

(08-11-2012 11:06 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

The kicker is that he rates his own threads 5 stars.

That is so weak....

[Nomad77]

Guys instead of bashing me because I've never used a forum before. (I didn't know you couldn't unclick the stars once you clicked on them.)

Maybe you could bash and attack what I have written instead. You are free to call me whatever you want but after you are done doing so I would still appreciate it if you would provide a response that invalidates what I am saying. If your response is that everyone knows stuff this already then its curious that so many people are still reading it...

[Tengen]

[deepcov3r]

(08-11-2012 04:16 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

I disagree with Assanova assertions... Here is what I think.
Assanova:

"One of the things that you'll see PUAs doing, is insisting that game works. I'm going to tell you why it appears to work in theory, ....

You will [never] rarely find a woman that will choose a physically unattractive guy with game, over a more physically attractive guy that has basic common sense and confidence. although if you add marked education-social class differences it becomes tougher. Buffy the Debutante can't comfortably bring home "The Situation" despite his tan and millions. . Never."

Is he right?

[/quote]

I "corrected" Assanova in bold with my opinions.
I agree mostly with Assanova; really good looking guys are rarely totally clueless (unless they are below average intelligence). I am busting ass right now to lose my gut-- two hours in the burning sun riding in the mountains yesterday.

Girls are CHILDREN " Oh look at HIM!." It's all about impressing her friends and feeling "classy".

Another thing is that I've NEVER seen a PUA teacher guru except that one that was working for Mystery that was flabby looking. They are ALL trim, so what they say means nothing, watch what they do. MOst faces look fairly good if the person is the proper weight.

[WestCoast]

This thread would be more useful if specifics are thrown up about how to either compensate or improve your looks.

Ex 1: If you are tan skinned I would recommend wearing bright icy colors such as (light blue, pink, orange, lemon yellow and even some light purples. If you are white you'll look stellar in neutral colors assuming your eye color is bright say a blue or green. Look better in a grey/brown/black set up and will accentuate the lighter skin tone. Black dudes go back to being able to pull off the icy colors.

Ex 2: If you are short, wear 2 button or one button blazers/coats. You'll want the v to come down more and look less boxy. If you are bigger you want to wear 3 button suits because you're not going to hide your "bigness" behind a large waist line.

Ex 3: If you have an unattractive face, get better looking. There are roughly 50 muscles on your face you can train each one to get slightly bigger and "better" for symmetry. I am so "" I practiced smiling in front of a mirror every day for a year. My face changed. its just muscles, i see a lot of bullshit on here about how you can't "change" your face. You sure as hell can because you can make muscles bigger. Your face is a bunch of muscles. I noticed the left side of my face had "less smile" than the right. So i smiled with the left side of my face only for 3 months and my symmetry changed. All you need is a camera and 20 mins a day. Free of charge. Then again some guys are too scared to ever find out exactly what an attractive guy is... if you can't rate a guy's looks how the hell can you improve on your own? Investing in looks is worth it and is huge once you have decent game.

Factually. People with happy lives tend to have marks on the side of their eyes due to significant amounts of smiling and have less wrinkles on their foreheads due to lower stress levels from furrowing their foreheads and nose. Thats who you want to be, not ugly dude with game but a life span thats going to be cut 10 years short. You live once. There are no second chances.

Conclusion. If you want to look like shit and still get girls. Go fuck yourself. You're basically saying I want to do nothing and still get laid. Well your quality and quantity of approaches is going to be worse. If you were a "5" before may as well try to become a 7+. This is also exactly why all the weight lifting trolls are stupid. They have never walked around shirtless with a 6 pack, biceps with a peak and a chisseled chest. IE: They don't care enough about themselves

Improve your looks if you give a shit about your life. I'd rather be "conceited" than die an early death due to being a fat fuck.

[xsplat]

I would bet money that I'm the ugliest guy on the forum. There have been many times where I literally could not get any attention in a Thai whorehouse. Strikingly below average. And short and balding and mid forties.

Of course looks matter. A hell of a lot. Clubs are not an easy venue for me, and I very rarely get IOIs, and then it's usually from chicks I'd never bone. I'm NEVER approached.

Can game completely compensate for ALL of that deficit? No. Just no. Fewer girls are going to be available to me than the younger and more handsome guy.

But I still routinely date way out of my league, and out compete young handsome guys. And I can hook the hotties strongly enough that they don't leave me for the competition. Just have to work harder, and even be careful about location.

I can understand why the tiresome subject keeps coming up. It's a habit of mind to piece together facts in ways that don't offend our sense of pride, or make you feel a lesser man. So some guys prefer to think one way or the other. Facts and emotions can be like oil and water. The fact is plain.

[Nomad77]

Thanks for confirming the point I was making xsplat.

[xsplat]

I may as well add here that it's likely that the ugly man is going to rely on different game principles.

I get no IOIs and as the ugliest guy in the room don't easily project high value relative to the competition, so if I'm being aloof nobody would even notice that I'm not paying attention to them.

Also, someone on my blog recently came up with the theory that being aloof might be attractive especially to women with attachment avoidance issues. I can see that making sense. I'm mostly attracted to women who enjoy bonding, as making a love slave is like 90% of the whole fun of the thing.

For me ugly man game is Don Juan de la Marco game - spontaneous instant passionate connection. Something most guys can't offer. A guy has to have an edge.

[deepcov3r]

(08-12-2012 11:53 PM)xsplat Wrote:  

I would bet money that I'm the ugliest guy on the forum. There have been many times where I literally could not get any attention in a Thai whorehouse. ...

But I still routinely date way out of my league, and out compete young handsome guys.

Hey, this was well written and encouraging=+1. Thanks.

Could you offer your opinion on what are the most important
things you learned from hard experience that you did differently;
which changed your outcomes?

Restated, what repeatable/observable aspects of your actions can we try out changes of your approaching or other aspects of game made the most difference for you?

I too want women that want to get close, but I need to be able to recognize the type.

Thanks

[Nomad77]

Yep, I agree. There is no one kind of game that will work for everyone. The basic principles are valid but how and in what combination you apply them so that they work best for you has to be related to who you are and what kind of women you are after.

[xsplat]

(08-13-2012 12:09 AM)deepcov3r Wrote:  

(08-12-2012 11:53 PM)xsplat Wrote:  

I would bet money that I'm the ugliest guy on the forum. There have been many times where I literally could not get any attention in a Thai whorehouse. ...

But I still routinely date way out of my league, and out compete young handsome guys.

Hey, this was well written and encouraging=+1. Thanks.

Could you offer your opinion on what are the most important
things you learned from hard experience that you did differently;
which changed your outcomes?

Restated, what repeatable/observable aspects of your actions can we try out changes of your approaching or other aspects of game made the most difference for you?

I too want women that want to get close, but I need to be able to recognize the type.

Thanks

Well, experience has shown me that after a while I grow on a girl, like a fungus. And some percentage of girls - even hotties - can be seduced by a short bald old ugly man. So I still don't lower my standards at all. I figure if I find them very attractive then that passion by itself will have some appeal. It often does.

And I'm pretty good at what I'm good at - the one on one social skills and fucking. Once the girl is isolated, the ugly guy has a chance.

Oh, and of course in order to date girls from 19 to early twenties (sometimes up to mid twenties), I moved out of the west. Some guys pull that off there, but I'm sure it's much harder. I've been in SE Asia in Indonesia, Thailand, and the Philippines. For those who think that cures all problems, try it. It just makes things easier - but also brings it's own problems.

A lot of guys don't understand, or have forgotten, the power of romance, and of the beta bait and switch. Some girls are thrilled to date an ugly man, because they think he could not possibly be a player. He he. Stability is hugely attractive - don't just be all Mr. Alpha and forget that. And then there are the player girls who think they are immune to falling in love. Easy prey. They think you can't possibly know that they are looking for an easy mark to sponsor them. Soon enough they are your easy mark, in love with you, cleaning your fridge, and fucking you for free.

I don't know anyone who has been talking about having a very strong masculine frame with strong boundaries but also incorporating a high affect; using intimacy and bonding and a fiery temper and passion with the girls. It can be a huge hook. That the girls can't seem to find anywhere else.

Really, in some ways the handsome guys are no competition at all. My girls pine for me for years, even though before and after me are a string of model handsome pretty boys. I have voodoo.

[Nomad77]

Exactly! If the girl somehow gave you a chance to interact with her you can turn the tables in your favorite. This is exactly why so many girls end up with men they know from their work or social circle. Once you jack into a girl emotionally she will begin to see you in a different way regardless of how you look.

(08-13-2012 12:27 AM)xsplat Wrote:  

And I'm pretty good at what I'm good at - the one on one social skills and fucking. Once the girl is isolated, the ugly guy has a chance.

[OGNorCal707]

(08-13-2012 12:27 AM)xsplat Wrote:  

Well, experience has shown me that after a while I grow on a girl, like a fungus. And some percentage of girls - even hotties - can be seduced by a short bald old ugly man.

Sounds like George Costanza game.

[soup]

There is a difference between being a narcissist and being irrationally self-confident. Let's not confuse the two.

[xsplat]

(08-13-2012 01:39 AM)soup Wrote:  

There is a difference between being a narcissist and being irrationally self-confident. Let's not confuse the two.

Can you expand on that?

I'm not fond of irrationality of any sort, however I feel strongly that pride can be a good and accurate thing.

And on the flip side of that, it's not necessary to lose self esteem due to ugliness. Not for a man, anyway, as our value is not wholly tied up in our face. It's just a thing.