Science Says: Don't Date Muscular Guys!
The correlation between muscularity and high male notch-counts has been known for some time, and shown repeatedly in multiple studies. Muscular men have more short term relationships, and more flings with attached women.
Several of those studies (here in full is the most detailed one of them all, btw) also showed that women tend to identify men with exaggerated secondary sex characteristics (most notably, muscularity) as less likely to commit or make ideal long term partners. It appears as though they mentally slot such men into the "short term" category early on, which means that if you are looking for an LTR, high muscularity can actually work against you. I suspect that just how much it works against you could vary with the girl's ethnicity, class and/or culture, but that's a study for another day. Generally, it works against you.
Women have an easier time rationalizing short-term flings when it comes to muscular men, which makes sense given our knowledge of how their hamsters tend to work. The rationalization probably goes something like this: "It's ok if he doesn't call me back or if this is just for one night, muscular guys like him don't date and make bad boyfriends anyway". She can absolve herself of any responsibility for the short term nature of the fling (she won't need to ask "Am I not attractive enough?") with this rationalization. The expectation that the man is no-good for anything beyond the short term makes it easier for her to seek out said flings with them (fewer consequences/strings attached).
This is what the science says. Most of the other crap in that yahoo article (all about the sexism and patriarchy, etc) is propaganda, but that is to be expected from such a source.
Bottomline: Women still prefer buffer men for short term relationships, which is why these men have higher average notch counts than everyone else. If you want lots of notches, hit the weights. If you want LTRs you can still hit them, just not too hard. If you are a buff guy, you'll have more success focusing on generating short-term relationships than you will LTRs.
Several of those studies (here in full is the most detailed one of them all, btw) also showed that women tend to identify men with exaggerated secondary sex characteristics (most notably, muscularity) as less likely to commit or make ideal long term partners. It appears as though they mentally slot such men into the "short term" category early on, which means that if you are looking for an LTR, high muscularity can actually work against you. I suspect that just how much it works against you could vary with the girl's ethnicity, class and/or culture, but that's a study for another day. Generally, it works against you.
Women have an easier time rationalizing short-term flings when it comes to muscular men, which makes sense given our knowledge of how their hamsters tend to work. The rationalization probably goes something like this: "It's ok if he doesn't call me back or if this is just for one night, muscular guys like him don't date and make bad boyfriends anyway". She can absolve herself of any responsibility for the short term nature of the fling (she won't need to ask "Am I not attractive enough?") with this rationalization. The expectation that the man is no-good for anything beyond the short term makes it easier for her to seek out said flings with them (fewer consequences/strings attached).
This is what the science says. Most of the other crap in that yahoo article (all about the sexism and patriarchy, etc) is propaganda, but that is to be expected from such a source.
Bottomline: Women still prefer buffer men for short term relationships, which is why these men have higher average notch counts than everyone else. If you want lots of notches, hit the weights. If you want LTRs you can still hit them, just not too hard. If you are a buff guy, you'll have more success focusing on generating short-term relationships than you will LTRs.
Know your enemy and know yourself, find naught in fear for 100 battles. Know yourself but not your enemy, find level of loss and victory. Know thy enemy but not yourself, wallow in defeat every time.
in a competitive environment like a club, the scrawny guys wont find their LTR because she sucks dick of the big/attractive guy. leaves them to social circle mainly. in the end it has several advantages to gain some muscle.
Brought to you by Carl's Jr.
fwiw im "buff" and focus on medium term relationships (a few weeks to a few months. no "dates" just her coming over to my apt to bang.) but girls pretty much always end up attached and wanting more.
Ha. Solution from this article... Get ripped - stop giving a fuck about LTRs, win win!
Interesting, although it's total bullshit to me.
However i can't help but notice that the more buff and shredded i get that harder it became to get a notches.
I know my game is not perfect but i do know a lot about it and combined with a good physique/height/style it should be cake, right? but nope.....contrary to what my buddies have said "you must get laid like crazy"
I see short, skinny, over weight guys with decent looking women all the time, holding hands of course, so LTR, but extremely rare to see that with a buffed guy.
Fuck it, lift weights and don't give a shit forever.
However i can't help but notice that the more buff and shredded i get that harder it became to get a notches.
I know my game is not perfect but i do know a lot about it and combined with a good physique/height/style it should be cake, right? but nope.....contrary to what my buddies have said "you must get laid like crazy"
I see short, skinny, over weight guys with decent looking women all the time, holding hands of course, so LTR, but extremely rare to see that with a buffed guy.
Fuck it, lift weights and don't give a shit forever.
If you change your body massively and rapidy, you may want to tone down the "asshole" game on girls. Your range for girls just increased so let's say the 7 you used to run asshole game on now views you as an 8. it actually pays to be a "nice beta" sometimes if the girl feels very very vulnerable around you because you're so hot.
Being muscular and ripped to shreds puts you into the fling category, so better off trying nice guy game on those shy girls who are skeptical of how hot you are now.
Fine line to toe, need to be friendly and personable not push over pussy.
My 2c.
Being muscular and ripped to shreds puts you into the fling category, so better off trying nice guy game on those shy girls who are skeptical of how hot you are now.
Fine line to toe, need to be friendly and personable not push over pussy.
My 2c.
Quote: (07-10-2012 11:06 AM)Perseus Wrote:
Interesting, although it's total bullshit to me.
However i can't help but notice that the more buff and shredded i get that harder it became to get a notches.
I know my game is not perfect but i do know a lot about it and combined with a good physique/height/style it should be cake, right? but nope.....contrary to what my buddies have said "you must get laid like crazy"
I see short, skinny, over weight guys with decent looking women all the time, holding hands of course, so LTR, but extremely rare to see that with a buffed guy.
Fuck it, lift weights and don't give a shit forever.
Quote: (07-10-2012 11:11 AM)WestCoast Wrote:
If you change your body massively and rapidy, you may want to tone down the "asshole" game on girls. Your range for girls just increased so let's say the 7 you used to run asshole game on now views you as an 8. it actually pays to be a "nice beta" sometimes if the girl feels very very vulnerable around you because you're so hot.
Being muscular and ripped to shreds puts you into the fling category, so better off trying nice guy game on those shy girls who are skeptical of how hot you are now.
Fine line to toe, need to be friendly and personable not push over pussy.
My 2c.
Quote: (07-10-2012 11:06 AM)Perseus Wrote:
Interesting, although it's total bullshit to me.
However i can't help but notice that the more buff and shredded i get that harder it became to get a notches.
I know my game is not perfect but i do know a lot about it and combined with a good physique/height/style it should be cake, right? but nope.....contrary to what my buddies have said "you must get laid like crazy"
I see short, skinny, over weight guys with decent looking women all the time, holding hands of course, so LTR, but extremely rare to see that with a buffed guy.
Fuck it, lift weights and don't give a shit forever.
Good point man, I've thought about that actually as well.
Still though, when you have a 6 who thinks she's a 9 (think DC), i don't think "going nice" on her will work.
Also i'm not an LTR kind of guy, since LTR has the "marriage" component to them and i am completely against marriage, in fact i think it's un-natural.
Yep you got it. You can't be nice to the girls who think they are 12's but are really 5's.
I think a lot of guys are shocked at how shallow women are as well. So if you get the Vibe that she thinks you're hot, be nicer, not cocky not a pushover just a "cool gent"
I think a lot of guys are shocked at how shallow women are as well. So if you get the Vibe that she thinks you're hot, be nicer, not cocky not a pushover just a "cool gent"
Quote: (07-10-2012 11:11 AM)WestCoast Wrote:
If you change your body massively and rapidy, you may want to tone down the "asshole" game on girls. Your range for girls just increased so let's say the 7 you used to run asshole game on now views you as an 8. it actually pays to be a "nice beta" sometimes if the girl feels very very vulnerable around you because you're so hot.
Being muscular and ripped to shreds puts you into the fling category, so better off trying nice guy game on those shy girls who are skeptical of how hot you are now.
Fine line to toe, need to be friendly and personable not push over pussy.
My 2c.
Quote: (07-10-2012 11:06 AM)Perseus Wrote:
Interesting, although it's total bullshit to me.
However i can't help but notice that the more buff and shredded i get that harder it became to get a notches.
I know my game is not perfect but i do know a lot about it and combined with a good physique/height/style it should be cake, right? but nope.....contrary to what my buddies have said "you must get laid like crazy"
I see short, skinny, over weight guys with decent looking women all the time, holding hands of course, so LTR, but extremely rare to see that with a buffed guy.
Fuck it, lift weights and don't give a shit forever.
westcoast - you just contradicted yourself. if a girl is putting you into the 'fling' zone, your game needs to be tighter because she is going to base her decision on whether or not to sleep with you entirely on pre-selection.
she sees you are muscular, which subconsciously makes her think that you would pass on good genes. she also, either consciously or subconsciously, gets the feeling that you would not be a good long term mate because her SMV isn't high enough to keep you committed which makes her decide that you would be good for a ONS / fling. if she has these thoughts, she realizes she won't have the time to actually verify if your genes are good: she won't know your family history, etc so she has to rely entirely on pre-selection. ergo she is going to shit test the hell out of you to make sure you are congruent with the guy she perceives you to be.
perseus- you sound a little insecure in your post. like i said, i feel that girls test congruence much rigorously on muscular guys. you need to maintain your frame and be totally aloof and outcome independent.
I'll try to explain the difference. A lot of your points are valid, if you are in "fling zone" yeah she'll test your congruence a lot but it depends on what kind of girl you have. It's not like being ripped to shreds means u can't date at all, that's a myth. Just more women consider you a fling.
1. Shy girls. You'll have to prove you are actually datable if she is not a fling type and go for a day 2 bang
2. Party girls. Just go caveman and be massively congruent. Blah blah. One night stand.
Hopefully that short example helps. As you get bigger how people treat you changes. You have to change as well.
When I was skinny I'd run a different game than the game I run now. I run a different game in a v-neck than when I am in a blazer. Different game at beach shirtless versus out of work in a suit. The list goes on and on.
When you stack weight fast and become muscular the game changes, unlikely will your personalities match at first that's the issue so you have to gauge how handsome you are again and re-triangulate.
End of the day though, a mans fitness is a great long-term barometer for # of sex partners. So get jacked to shreds.
Just remember adjust your game!
This is why you see stupid posts about how being fit doesn't help, it's because you didn't adjust to it... Be like water.
1. Shy girls. You'll have to prove you are actually datable if she is not a fling type and go for a day 2 bang
2. Party girls. Just go caveman and be massively congruent. Blah blah. One night stand.
Hopefully that short example helps. As you get bigger how people treat you changes. You have to change as well.
When I was skinny I'd run a different game than the game I run now. I run a different game in a v-neck than when I am in a blazer. Different game at beach shirtless versus out of work in a suit. The list goes on and on.
When you stack weight fast and become muscular the game changes, unlikely will your personalities match at first that's the issue so you have to gauge how handsome you are again and re-triangulate.
End of the day though, a mans fitness is a great long-term barometer for # of sex partners. So get jacked to shreds.
Just remember adjust your game!
This is why you see stupid posts about how being fit doesn't help, it's because you didn't adjust to it... Be like water.
Quote: (07-10-2012 12:19 PM)WestCoast Wrote:
I'll try to explain the difference. A lot of your points are valid, if you are in "fling zone" yeah she'll test your congruence a lot but it depends on what kind of girl you have. It's not like being ripped to shreds means u can't date at all, that's a myth. Just more women consider you a fling.
1. Shy girls. You'll have to prove you are actually datable if she is not a fling type and go for a day 2 bang
2. Party girls. Just go caveman and be massively congruent. Blah blah. One night stand.
Hopefully that short example helps. As you get bigger how people treat you changes. You have to change as well.
When I was skinny I'd run a different game than the game I run now. I run a different game in a v-neck than when I am in a blazer. Different game at beach shirtless versus out of work in a suit. The list goes on and on.
When you stack weight fast and become muscular the game changes, unlikely will your personalities match at first that's the issue so you have to gauge how handsome you are again and re-triangulate.
End of the day though, a mans fitness is a great long-term barometer for # of sex partners. So get jacked to shreds.
like i said early on in the thread, in my experience, they usually do get attached after the bang. but being nice is definitely not the answer, especially if you are going for truly hot girls. ive actually found that if they see you do or if you talk about doing things for your friends and family, they will think of as a "nice guy" and project that niceness onto the relationship even though you never do anything nice to them. so, you never come off needy or approval seeking but they also dont see you as an insufferable prick.
anytime i have ever said 'this girl is sweet, maybe i should try to be nice and tone down the assholeness' i havent gotten the bang.
Strange. I've done this and gotten the bang. I think nice and sweet are toughs words to give based on spoken word.
I guess the word is "feels comfortable banging you". They want to feel like you'll be there post sex, which is harder to exude when you are muscular.
Again adjusting game dependent on what kind of girl you think you're talking to.
Not saying be a nice guy beta, it's more of "cool guy". Talk about family, shit like that.
Also what I am referring to is similar to saying crap like "you're pretty" so she'll sleep with you. When the duck is cooked and you just end it all with sappy crap and throw away the cocky funny stuff.
I guess the word is "feels comfortable banging you". They want to feel like you'll be there post sex, which is harder to exude when you are muscular.
Again adjusting game dependent on what kind of girl you think you're talking to.
Not saying be a nice guy beta, it's more of "cool guy". Talk about family, shit like that.
Also what I am referring to is similar to saying crap like "you're pretty" so she'll sleep with you. When the duck is cooked and you just end it all with sappy crap and throw away the cocky funny stuff.
I'm wondering about the other side of this coin. What about the outlook of us dashingly muscular males?
Almost all the fit guys I know are trying to bang left and right, I think it's premature to think we're viewed as good only for flings because women assume those things, after all, we are the first movers. Our actions have probably given that general stereotype a lot of credibility.
Not that I give a shit, I'm just making the observation. It's like what came first "chicken or egg". Both points are valid.
Almost all the fit guys I know are trying to bang left and right, I think it's premature to think we're viewed as good only for flings because women assume those things, after all, we are the first movers. Our actions have probably given that general stereotype a lot of credibility.
Not that I give a shit, I'm just making the observation. It's like what came first "chicken or egg". Both points are valid.
I think the cocky asshole game thing is starting to get played out. I think westcoast is right, being muscular and then sprinkling little bits of nice around catches them off guard and makes you more attractive. The trouble with too much of that is then girls want to date and prove how "virtuous" they are rather than fuck on the first date.
Quote: (07-10-2012 11:06 AM)Perseus Wrote:
Interesting, although it's total bullshit to me.
However i can't help but notice that the more buff and shredded i get that harder it became to get a notches.
I know my game is not perfect but i do know a lot about it and combined with a good physique/height/style it should be cake, right? but nope.....contrary to what my buddies have said "you must get laid like crazy"
I see short, skinny, over weight guys with decent looking women all the time, holding hands of course, so LTR, but extremely rare to see that with a buffed guy.
Fuck it, lift weights and don't give a shit forever.
You know who gets more girls than "muscular guys"?
Guys who party all the time and hit on girls all the time (with Game).
Partiers beat the gym rat guy 52 weeks out of 52.
Yeah agree everything flows to the top though so how about unsoppable?
Day game, night game, numbers game, cash, fit, "Game"
Day game, night game, numbers game, cash, fit, "Game"
Quote: (07-10-2012 01:33 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:
Quote: (07-10-2012 11:06 AM)Perseus Wrote:
Interesting, although it's total bullshit to me.
However i can't help but notice that the more buff and shredded i get that harder it became to get a notches.
I know my game is not perfect but i do know a lot about it and combined with a good physique/height/style it should be cake, right? but nope.....contrary to what my buddies have said "you must get laid like crazy"
I see short, skinny, over weight guys with decent looking women all the time, holding hands of course, so LTR, but extremely rare to see that with a buffed guy.
Fuck it, lift weights and don't give a shit forever.
You know who gets more girls than "muscular guys"?
Guys who party all the time and hit on girls all the time (with Game).
Partiers beat the gym rat guy 52 weeks out of 52.
I kind of agree with what WestCoast is saying. Sure you can be ripped, but you're going to have to be more than the cocky asshole if you want more than a ONS. You have to contrast some of your behaviors and show her something new. I act cocky/assholish when I am on a date and tone it down a bit when we get to my place or are 'alone' not so much that she might think I put on a front when I'm out in public. I bang her to the best of my ability and after as she lays there feeling awesome I'll cuddle and say sweet/nice (but not beta) stuff. I've had multiple girls tell me I'm so intense/hard/etc on the outside, but goeey and cute (or something stupid) on the inside, they never say "you're so nice" or anything 'bad' like that. It works well for keeping girls around.
Yep! Spot on my man!
This is like when a girl eye fucks the shit out of you and you catch her and she feels "embarrassed"
Do you walk over and "neg her"
Best one night stand line? How about "hey I like your purse it's cute"
This asshole game isn't some perfect for all situations. If you're a handsome gent you dont want her to think your the biggest dick on the planet walking over telling her she "needs to be happier" forget that.
You use asshole game when you know the girl has been coddled to her whole life, but not in all cases like the one I just described.
This is like when a girl eye fucks the shit out of you and you catch her and she feels "embarrassed"
Do you walk over and "neg her"
Best one night stand line? How about "hey I like your purse it's cute"
This asshole game isn't some perfect for all situations. If you're a handsome gent you dont want her to think your the biggest dick on the planet walking over telling her she "needs to be happier" forget that.
You use asshole game when you know the girl has been coddled to her whole life, but not in all cases like the one I just described.
Quote: (07-10-2012 02:12 PM)WesternCancer Wrote:
I kind of agree with what WestCoast is saying. Sure you can be ripped, but you're going to have to be more than the cocky asshole if you want more than a ONS. You have to contrast some of your behaviors and show her something new. I act cocky/assholish when I am on a date and tone it down a bit when we get to my place or are 'alone' not so much that she might think I put on a front when I'm out in public. I bang her to the best of my ability and after as she lays there feeling awesome I'll cuddle and say sweet/nice (but not beta) stuff. I've had multiple girls tell me I'm so intense/hard/etc on the outside, but goeey and cute (or something stupid) on the inside, they never say "you're so nice" or anything 'bad' like that. It works well for keeping girls around.
As a good-looking, buff dude (sprints & Crossfit FTW!) I have some personal experience with this phenomenon. My experience is that bulking up is good for a man's notch counts under two conditions, 1) he bulks up for himself and not the ladies, and 2) he adjusts his Game to be synergistic with his newfound physical reality.
The first one has to do with inner game. If your primary reason for working out is to look hot, then you are a woman. A bitch. Because that's what bitches do. Women live and die by their looks and so only a woman (or highly feminized male) does that. If you workout to impress women, then your inner game is weak and you are already fucked in the field---this mindset is rampant and explains a fair amount of the failure you see out there. Workout because men have always exerted their strength of will over objects through space. Workout to improve your health. Workout because you insist on becoming a fierce and physically vital human being in an age of trans-fats, fattitude, and dull, sedentary cubicle jobs. Whatever your reasons, don't make it about bitches.
And the second issue is just a failure to adjust to a new state of affairs. When you bulk up and become physically imposing, you have got to make changes in the way you spit Game. My Game consists mostly of inner game/frame control and physical escalation. And a fair amount of comfort building when needed. I mostly just try to play defense and not make mistakes. Being good-looking and physically imposing means girls are less inclined to shit test or challange me—I go months without needing to neg serious prospects and I get away with ignoring most shit tests that do actually come my way. You're basically shooting for what Roosh once called "horny, nice guy" game. When you're buff, women are already primed to believe that you're alpha and a player...so zig where they zag. Contrast is king.
No amount of bench presses can overcome weak inner game or a failure to react and adjust to your situation. Trust me it's not the muscles that are tripping guys up.
The first one has to do with inner game. If your primary reason for working out is to look hot, then you are a woman. A bitch. Because that's what bitches do. Women live and die by their looks and so only a woman (or highly feminized male) does that. If you workout to impress women, then your inner game is weak and you are already fucked in the field---this mindset is rampant and explains a fair amount of the failure you see out there. Workout because men have always exerted their strength of will over objects through space. Workout to improve your health. Workout because you insist on becoming a fierce and physically vital human being in an age of trans-fats, fattitude, and dull, sedentary cubicle jobs. Whatever your reasons, don't make it about bitches.
And the second issue is just a failure to adjust to a new state of affairs. When you bulk up and become physically imposing, you have got to make changes in the way you spit Game. My Game consists mostly of inner game/frame control and physical escalation. And a fair amount of comfort building when needed. I mostly just try to play defense and not make mistakes. Being good-looking and physically imposing means girls are less inclined to shit test or challange me—I go months without needing to neg serious prospects and I get away with ignoring most shit tests that do actually come my way. You're basically shooting for what Roosh once called "horny, nice guy" game. When you're buff, women are already primed to believe that you're alpha and a player...so zig where they zag. Contrast is king.
No amount of bench presses can overcome weak inner game or a failure to react and adjust to your situation. Trust me it's not the muscles that are tripping guys up.
Quote: (07-10-2012 03:19 PM)dragnet Wrote:
As a good-looking, buff dude (sprints & Crossfit FTW!) I have some personal experience with this phenomenon. My experience is that bulking up is good for a man's notch counts under two conditions, 1) he bulks up for himself and not the ladies, and 2) he adjusts his Game to be synergistic with his newfound physical reality.
The first one has to do with inner game. If your primary reason for working out is to look hot, then you are a woman. A bitch. Because that's what bitches do. Women live and die by their looks and so only a woman (or highly feminized male) does that. If you workout to impress women, then your inner game is weak and you are already fucked in the field---this mindset is rampant and explains a fair amount of the failure you see out there. Workout because men have always exerted their strength of will over objects through space. Workout to improve your health. Workout because you insist on becoming a fierce and physically vital human being in an age of trans-fats, fattitude, and dull, sedentary cubicle jobs. Whatever your reasons, don't make it about bitches.
And the second issue is just a failure to adjust to a new state of affairs. When you bulk up and become physically imposing, you have got to make changes in the way you spit Game. My Game consists mostly of inner game/frame control and physical escalation. And a fair amount of comfort building when needed. I mostly just try to play defense and not make mistakes. Being good-looking and physically imposing means girls are less inclined to shit test or challange me—I go months without needing to neg serious prospects and I get away with ignoring most shit tests that do actually come my way. You're basically shooting for what Roosh once called "horny, nice guy" game. When you're buff, women are already primed to believe that you're alpha and a player...so zig where they zag. Contrast is king.
No amount of bench presses can overcome weak inner game or a failure to react and adjust to your situation. Trust me it's not the muscles that are tripping guys up.
![[Image: potd.gif]](https://rooshvforum.network/images/smilies/new/potd.gif)
Next thing you know we'll see threads on how having a big bank account hurts game.
Stupid hamster logic, it just means those guys are harder to lock down bc they know the guy has more options.
"So before you dismiss the next scrawny guy who approaches you, consider that science thinks he'd make a better boyfriend."
Retarded article. Basically saying that a guy will make a "better" boyfriend because he has no other options. No shit Sherlock. Only he has no options because he is simply not very attractive and neither you will be interested in him.
It's like saying you should go for the ugly fat girl since she'll make a better girlfriend. Yes, probably true, but why the fuck would I want to find out?
Retarded article. Basically saying that a guy will make a "better" boyfriend because he has no other options. No shit Sherlock. Only he has no options because he is simply not very attractive and neither you will be interested in him.
It's like saying you should go for the ugly fat girl since she'll make a better girlfriend. Yes, probably true, but why the fuck would I want to find out?
This article seems like it was written by a feminist: let's try to warp the perceptions of human nature so society will think I'm more attractive.
Quote:Quote:
The study surveyed 327 straight British men, more than a third of whom were single, and discovered that the more muscular the participant, the more likely he was to have sexist beliefs and hostility toward women. Yikes!
And this is bad because...?
Vice-Captain - #TeamWaitAndSee
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