[OSL]

Good to see you all again.

I've been seeing a lot of new guys on the forum, mostly value-adders. If I haven't communicated with you directly, welcome to the forum.

I've been very interested in RSD (real social dynamics) - not as a means of getting laid more or consuming their content - but specifically in terms of their operations, sales, marketing, and execution. Namely, their business model and sales figures.

Say what you will about Tyler/Owen and the rest of the crew, but it's pretty clear that they as a company have a good track record of execution in business selling information products and running bootcamps. I am not interested in RSD's content, but the model by which they market and distribute packaged information to masses of hungry consumers and the specific/quantified results they have obtained to date.

If possible, let's please avoid turning this into a flame war against RSD and discuss information product businesses and their business model.

Pasted below is a link to INC's profile on them in 2008/2009, listed as one of the fastest growing companies in Los Angeles:

http://www.inc.com/inc5000/profile/real-social-dynamics

Real Social Dynamics's business model

Real Social Dynamics coaches men in dating skills through boot camps, seminars, and publications.

Statistics

3-year growth:349%
2008 Revenue:$3 million
2005 Revenue:$668,845
Employees:100
Founded:2002
Industry:■ Consumer Products & Services

I read a response by Jeffy (JLAIX) on Yelp that they did 4 million in revenue in 2009. I don't know how reliable that figure is.

Does anyone have any more detailed information about their business history, profit/revenue, sales figures, etc?

Thank you in advance.

-YMG



--

[Rurik]

I'm pretty sure that's gross revenue, which of course doesn't account for expenses.

I don't really know how great that necessarily is. The top few dudes are making hundreds of thousands plus a year for sure.

Also, keep in mind the big boost they've gotten off of: 1. prominence in the book "The Game", as well as 2. prominent placement and promotion in the majority of david deangelo's programs. Those two factors have been huge since the above two sources are the biggest game products out there. You have to factor that in when assessing their "business model".

[OSL]

Right, it's revenue, not profitability. That's why I started the thread, to see if I could glean any more info about what sort of shape they are in. I don't know how much it costs to run their company.

I was unaware that they were affiliated with David D, thank you for bringing that up. In what way were they affiliated? I haven't read too much material outside of Neil Strauss' "The Game" and several of Roosh's books.

Let me emphasize that I'm not glorifying them in any way in this thread, if that was implied somehow. As someone who does not delve much into the game community (I'm on RVF for travel information), RSD is one of the players that seems to be (one of) the most prominent.

[Rurik]

(06-25-2012 03:37 AM)youngmobileglobal Wrote:  

Right, it's revenue, not profitability. That's why I started the thread, to see if I could glean any more info about what sort of shape they are in. I don't know how much it costs to run their company.

I was unaware that they were affiliated with David D, thank you for bringing that up. In what way were they affiliated? I haven't read too much material outside of Neil Strauss' "The Game" and several of Roosh's books.

Let me emphasize that I'm not glorifying them in any way in this thread, if that was implied somehow. As someone who does not delve much into the game community (I'm on RVF for travel information), RSD is one of the players that seems to be (one of) the most prominent.

They're in a ton of david d programs. One called "mastery", another one on "body language", a program called "approaching women in bars and clubs", and also a number of "conversations with dating gurus". There's a two hour conversation between Tyler and David Deangelo. In all the programs hee prominently features them and recommends to the audience that they attend an RSD seminar.

Tyler has admitted that RSD wouldn't be around if it weren't for The Game, saying it has brought MOST of the clients in. He said the company was at one point in a quarter million dollars of debt around 2005-2006.

Basically, you wouldn't be asking a question about their business model if it weren't for that exposure. They wouldn't be around most likely.

Even nowadays, they aren't doing amazing, considering they are the number one pickup company. Their videos have been relentlessly downloaded on piratebay. I disagree with some of what they say, but I have to admit they've gotten fucked hard on that front. One of Jeffy's jokes is that RSD is a "not for profit" business. Probably an overstatement, as I have seen Jeff admit that he makes over 10 thousand a month on rsd nation.

The top guys are making decent dough, but considering how well known they are, it ain't that great.

[OSL]

Thanks for the information Rurik, I suspected as much.

[Kitsune]

I'll have to dig it up, but Tyler briefly talks about problems with his business model in one of his free tour videos.

I can't remember exactly what he said, but I think I found it via PDog's blog, which is in his signature.

You could try Companies House in the UK - ltd. companies that operate here have to file accounts, although I don't know if RSD would have a seperate division here or whether they incorporate it all from the US. I don't know about accessing US accounts, I think it depends on what state they're incorporated in.

[WestIndianArchie]

(06-25-2012 01:42 AM)youngmobileglobal Wrote:  

If possible, let's please avoid turning this into a flame war against RSD and discuss information product businesses and their business model.

Does anyone have any more detailed information about their business history, profit/revenue, sales figures, etc?

They have a huge audience/customer base thanks to
1) the game
2) the blueprint - a RSD product
3) the relentless promotion - on their own sites and forums, acolytes that infiltrate other game/man-sphere/men's rights forums

They sell
1) e-books and dvd's
2) seminars
3) in field training

Competitors
1) imo, primarily Style and Mystery. (David D aka Eben Pagan is in a totally different category, imo)
2) all of the PUA companies that sprung up from their instructors and peers from back in the day
3) all of the johnny come lately's

Strength - the brand. Material can be engaging.

Weaknesses/limitations - all information products are of dubious value to the public. When the product doesn't work, no repeat customers. When the product works, also no repeat customers. (thanks guys, i'm fucking model bitches, don't need your stripper program)

It's also difficult to get customers to give word of mouth testimony (requires customer to admit a problem). Limited opportunities to sell the same customer base their highest profit margin product.

Opportunities - Better promotion, like Simple Pick Up, more thorough videos from pick up to full close. If they could hire 1 Indian dude, they could corner the IRT market.

Threats - better mouse traps, ignoring pick up trends - aka Tyler has said that there is no such thing as day game - lol, faddish nature of "the community" as a whole.

Something as basic as getting laid, and a path to making it easier, is still a very very hard sell, especially when proper training requires significant resources. A good program would assess the clients issues, address those issues, give them a good pick up structure, take them out to the field, give good feedback, and continue with the process until mastery.

The problem is e-books and seminars only take you so far. And the 2 day boot camp would need to be replaced with an actual 3-4 month 24/7 bootcamp, where the client would be deprogrammed and reprogrammed like they do in the military. At the highest level of game, your clothes are in style, your body looks good, you've got the whole open-to-close sequence internalized not just memorized, and you've figured out the logistics of your city. One of those companies should run a summer camp/Project Vegas or something. Get a space where everyone has their own private room, access to the gym, and a seminar space and then go out every night for 6-12 weeks. But as everyone knows from the book, that much time trying to bed chicks isn't healthy.

RSD has been able to rely their fame and most importantly Tyler Durden/Owen Cook as the real bread winner. Jeffy and the other guys just don't have the same charisma and star power.

Whenever Owen decides to hang it up and move on to "personal development" the company will fail, because it's very tied to Owen.

From the standpoint of delivering an information product in 3 different formats, it's as good as the typical MLM scam, Tony Robbins, or any of the Get Rich Quick Gurus. But at least with Pick Up, there's isn't a lot of deception in terms of hinting at secret knowledge if you only pay more $$.

In general, the field that RSD works in is still wide open because it's an evergreen topic. Sex, Money, and Health will always be great fields to develop products for.

WIA

[RichieP]

You should read Tylers posts about how it's actually a really BAD business model, but the reason he did it that way (several paid instructors that he invested lots of training into) is for personal reasons, because he loves the game and wanted to be around the very best guys he could find to learn from himself.

He also says that he finds it ironic that other companies copy their multiple-instructor model, and thats often why they fail - RSD were first to do it but they did it for selfish game-learning reasons, not out of good business sense.

Take that for what you will, but he has a point - he coulda made things ALOT easier for himself by running 12-on-1 bootcamps himself, purely off his reputation in the existing community, charging thousands and not employing anyone else.

[AlphaTravel]

Is it strange that this is the first time I've heard of the names being thrown around in this thread and this Real Social Dynamics website?

[Rurik]

(06-25-2012 09:36 AM)RichieP Wrote:  

You should read Tylers posts about how it's actually a really BAD business model, but the reason he did it that way (several paid instructors that he invested lots of training into) is for personal reasons, because he loves the game and wanted to be around the very best guys he could find to learn from himself.

He also says that he finds it ironic that other companies copy their multiple-instructor model, and thats often why they fail - RSD were first to do it but they did it for selfish game-learning reasons, not out of good business sense.

Take that for what you will, but he has a point - he coulda made things ALOT easier for himself by running 12-on-1 bootcamps himself, purely off his reputation in the existing community, charging thousands and not employing anyone else.

The reason they did 3 on 1 is because they were copying Mystery. I don't really buy much of Tyler's spin on anything.

Apparently they have a lot of REPEAT customers. I find this hard to believe on one hand, but then again it's almost obvious: they have a very cult-like cliquish following.

[Kitsune]

(06-25-2012 04:15 PM)Rurik Wrote:  

The reason they did 3 on 1 is because they were copying Mystery. I don't really buy much of Tyler's spin on anything.

It is amazing to watch in a way. He is a master of re-framing the past. He never mentions any competition, and he makes everything sound like it was his idea. Completely narcissistic, if not sociopathic, but entertaining as hell.

[Smitty]

(06-25-2012 07:27 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

They have a huge audience/customer base thanks to
1) the game
2) the blueprint - a RSD product
3) the relentless promotion - on their own sites and forums, acolytes that infiltrate other game/man-sphere/men's rights forums

WIA, slight modification to your post:

They have a huge audience/customer base thanks to
1) Men willing to pay top dollar for a *magical solution* that has been "proven" to work for someone else.

Your analysis is spot-on, and I agree with you that this field is ripe for the pickin'.

Men (pathetic as they are) will always pay money for the magical solution that will supposedly help them consistently get laid with hot women. As long as it doesn't require buying a cheap e-book for a few bucks and doing 100 approaches as a start...because that would just be, well, hard work.

I don't have any good ideas for how to gain entry into this market, but I'd be willing to invest some cash into the next great idea.

[Nineteen84]

Haha RSD are great marketers no doubt. No hate for their game - please tell me how may businesses can get people to part with THOUSANDS of dollars for what? And how much overhead can a workshop or bootcamp have?

And yes, they will play down their profit - they don't want students to feel they are being taken advantage of or to encourage competition.

However David Deangelo/ Eben Pagan is the true success story in this market (~$20 million a year by his reckoning) and with a lot less smoke and mirrors.

[Rurik]

(06-25-2012 05:11 PM)Nineteen84 Wrote:  

Haha RSD are great marketers no doubt. No hate for their game - please tell me how may businesses can get people to part with THOUSANDS of dollars for what? And how much overhead can a workshop or bootcamp have?

And yes, they will play down their profit - they don't want students to feel they are being taken advantage of or to encourage competition.

However David Deangelo/ Eben Pagan is the true success story in this market (~$20 million a year by his reckoning) and with a lot less smoke and mirrors.

True.

[WestIndianArchie]

(06-25-2012 02:09 PM)AlphaTravel Wrote:  

Is it strange that this is the first time I've heard of the names being thrown around in this thread and this Real Social Dynamics website?

Naw, it's not strange. A lot of people get here through Roissy and Roosh's main site, they didn't get here because they read "The Game" or any of the classic 00's pick up literature.

It's why twirling chicks, doing back turns, freeze outs, and all that old technology seems really new to them.

[Fathom]

I do not see how RSD have ever promised any magic solution. Their entire philosophy can be summed up with "APPROACH!" and Owen has even said in DVD products that if you're not going out, don't bother watching 'cause it won't make sense. Magic solutions are the companies who'd like you to believe if you hide your inadequacies behind enough routines, you'll trick girls you don't deserve into liking you.

As far as repeat business, it's worth noting many people have done multiple boot camps. One guy is "known" for having done five. I recently met someone who has done two in the span of six months. The cost of a bootcamp is $2,000, two thirds the price of Love Systems.

Also, as far as promotion goes, they have made all instructors begin video blogs and they are literally pumelling their fan and customer base with videos every week.

If Owen is charismatic or not is a different story. In the early material, such as Blueprint, he was relatively calm, despite his characteristic A.D.D. delivery. The way he becomes over-excited to the point of tripping over his own words has always struck me as unprofessional. In later years he has literally become manic. I believe RSD have the "truth" when it comes to being successful with women and those who slag them obviously know fuck all about them. They don't care where a girl is from, her race, her culture, her language, all that's irrelevant when you are in touch with yourself as a man. But now I'm going off on a tangent.

There is a very young guy who has been garnering a lot of attention lately, Julien. He is articulate and clear in his videos. Let's hope he stays that way.

Oh, and as far as Jeffy's claim of "ten thousand a month." He is the kind of person who bends the truth or avoids it, much like an adolescent, out of habit. I'm not calling him a liar, but he never gives real information. In the Mastermind he did (a monthly subscription with instructor interviews), he said he has sometimes made over ten thousand a month. He didn't say this was salary from RSD, resorting instead to a typically cryptic, "But I've been doing this for years, man... You just gotta hustle."

Anyway. I love RSD, even if their presentation is somewhat chaotic. All other companies are selling you band-aids. Routines do not address the real issue. Traveling for the sole purpose of finding "easy" girls does not address the issue (being a man who loves travel and honestly enjoys banging girls of different, "exotic" cultures is very different from the weakling who hops around the world looking for low-hanging fruit). RSD address the issue directly.

[Nineteen84]

Have you been on one of these RSD workshops Fathom?

[WestIndianArchie]

(06-25-2012 05:07 PM)Smitty Wrote:  

WIA, slight modification to your post:

They have a huge audience/customer base thanks to
1) Men willing to pay top dollar for a *magical solution* that has been "proven" to work for someone else.

Your analysis is spot-on, and I agree with you that this field is ripe for the pickin'.

I don't have any good ideas for how to gain entry into this market, but I'd be willing to invest some cash into the next great idea.

Everybody does boot camps, seminars, and e-books. Style charges the most, and Mystery/Venusian arts charges a pretty penny. Even the dudes who defected from those camps charge a bunch of money.

There's more than enough disgruntled dudes who paid 1500-2500 for a boot camp and weren't able to get pumped up to approach when they went home.

The fact that RSD still can get people to sign up is testament to their marketing. Cause out of all the "big shops", they have the WORST rep.

It's been a minute since I checked those groups, but 5 years ago there were plenty of people out there to "expose" the pick up artists.

here's an example

http://www.datingskillsreview.com/

But the whole industry is very smarmy. Intro videos, long scrolling sale pages, promising 100% content and delivering 1%..

A lot of those guys have followed David D'Angelo's move and gone into Internet Marketing.

It's a weird thing really. It comes down to whether you think it's possible to turn anyone into a salesman.

I think it's possible, just hard as hell.
Most people don't think it's possible.

WIA

[Nineteen84]

(06-25-2012 06:18 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

long scrolling sale pages,

ahh yes the infamous squeeze page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeeze_page

[Johnny Football]

(06-25-2012 09:36 AM)RichieP Wrote:  

You should read Tylers posts about how it's actually a really BAD business model, but the reason he did it that way (several paid instructors that he invested lots of training into) is for personal reasons, because he loves the game and wanted to be around the very best guys he could find to learn from himself.

He also says that he finds it ironic that other companies copy their multiple-instructor model, and thats often why they fail - RSD were first to do it but they did it for selfish game-learning reasons, not out of good business sense.

Take that for what you will, but he has a point - he coulda made things ALOT easier for himself by running 12-on-1 bootcamps himself, purely off his reputation in the existing community, charging thousands and not employing anyone else.

I believe that quote from the top paragraph is found in his "Truth about Success two RSD free tour" on Youtube if anyone was wondering.

[Andy_B]

As a copywriter and student of marketing, I feel I have a few things to say about RSD's success in the pickup/dating industry.

I think I can sum it up in a few main points:

1. They're putting out new content CONSTANTLY. There's usually at least 3 new instructor blog posts on the site per week, along with tons of blog posts by their fans. So, their SEO is likely quite good.

2. Their marketing is generally very "slick." For the most part, they tend to stay away from cheesy internet marketing templates, using high quality, original design instead. This differentiates them from their competitors.

3. Related to point 2, their video blogs are generally pretty high quality, and they always shoot in different locations. This makes their video content very entertaining and worth watching, almost like a mini TV show.

4. Pretty decent copywriting from Tyler. Tyler knows his subject, and he is capable of writing persuasive copy with a very enthusiastic tone; that can only help drive sales.

5. "Cultish" branding techniques. Well, this has to be mentioned. Tyler has created a unique vocabulary for RSD, and tends to isolate the company from the rest of the pickup scene. The result is legions of fanboys who hear, largely, what RSD wants them to hear, and very little else.

6. Aggressive self-promotion. Tyler does a lot of free speaking and corporate gigs to get his message out, and he networks extensively.

7. Luck. Again, has to be said. Tyler and RSD got a lot of free press from The Game. Yeah, the message was negative, but as the saying goes, there's no such thing as bad publicity.

I think these 7 points pretty much cover why RSD has been able to earn so much revenue. However, keep this in mind: Tyler has said on many occasions that the company runs on "razor thin" margins. If this is true, then the instructors aren't really taking home anything in the neighborhood of what many here seem to think.

[WestIndianArchie]

(06-26-2012 09:10 PM)Andy_B Wrote:  

As a copywriter and student of marketing, I feel I have a few things to say about RSD's success in the pickup/dating industry.

good analysis. And nice blog, added to my RSS feed.

[Saladin]

Andy gave a good analysis of RSD's marketing.

The cult like mentality is definitely there. They have their own vocabulary and they make very little references to anything outside of their own company. While Roosh is heavily involved in the manosphere RSD is simply concerned with business. Thats why most people on RSD's forums have no idea about the manosphere or about the issues discussed on here.

The RSD guys in Toronto think that Toronto is the shit and an amazing city for pickup while anyone who's traveled a bit knows that it is nothing compared to Montreal.

Because it is so insular guys on RSD will spend a lot of money on them. Guys will take multiple bootcamps.

However, there's plenty of value to be had on RSD. Lots of interesting insights on there. Their instructors all have very high levels of game and have shown infield footage too which is impressive.

Its all about picking and choosing whatever aspects you want. You definitely want to create your own style from various people and companies.

In the future I might take a RSD bootcamp if I'm rich, however its much more cost effectivie to just go to Montreal for a month.

[thegmanifesto]

What does a bootcamp cost?

If a bootcamp is $1500 and if they did $3 million, that is 2000 attending a bootcamp in a year.

Is that possible?

[OSL]

(06-28-2012 02:53 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

What does a bootcamp cost?

If a bootcamp is $1500 and if they did $3 million, that is 2000 attending a bootcamp in a year.

Is that possible?

I imagine most of their revenue comes from product sales, not bootcamps.

I may be wrong.