[el mechanico]

I fixed mine. First I just used a marker on my monitor but got tired of scrolling to the same spot.

[Excelsior]

(03-06-2012 01:25 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

I was simply happy to have a place to share my stories. That's more than enough. I've learned from others as well and have not always given feedback for posts I enjoyed. The quality of content is what kept me coming back day after day, not the race for points. Seeing good quality content inspires me to provide value in return. You can see from my profile that I drop a lot of posts on this forum. I average about 12.4 a day. That's what matters to me.

The rep points are truly insignificant.

Perspective is needed here: not everybody is like you. Incentives drive behavior, and some people need more incentives than simply having a high post count (in fact, I'd contend that most do).
Like it or not, this is human nature. The homo-sapien is a self-interested beast. Sometimes you have to offer the carrot on the stick to get the type of behavior you want.

Want noobs to feel pressure to contribute early on and make spot-on posts? Add rep, and give the possibility of recognition if they post a solid datasheet or other information right off the bat. Incentivize that behavior.

Can you go without providing that incentive? Sure, but don't pretend that there won't be a price (read: fewer high quality early posts/more laziness). To prevent that, the average guy would have to have your more altruistic mindset, and we know this isn't the case.

[Excelsior]

I'm fine with Roosh's deadline idea. As a pro-rep member, I'm not going to use this time to sabotage anything. Rather, I'd like to try and propose some ideas that could better help us to move forward positively.

I think the best idea for all of us is a compromise: bring back the rep system (satisfy the pro-rep members) and mitigate all of its major faults (satisfy those who feel it has become a nuisance). This is not going to be an exceedingly simple balance to strike, but it is more than doable for the forum.
My suggestions (along with the problems they are meant to address) are below:

Problem 1:

(03-06-2012 10:57 AM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

A guy could drop one data sheet and receive dozens of rep points while having no other contribution whatsoever, whereas another member could aggregate the same number of rep points by contributing info about many different things over a longer period of time.

Solution: Limit the number of points a user can receive for any individual post (or, if necessary, any individual thread). The limit should be enough for one to gain significant recognition for good work, but not enough to see their rep skyrocket in two days (ex: say 2-3 point limit per thread*).

You can also limit the number of rep points a user can give to any other individual user, either by time period (ex: you can give no more than one rep a month to the same individual) or by rep spread (ex: you must give rep to one or two other users before you can rep an individual again). Perhaps some combination of these two limits can be worked out.

Furthermore, this could also be combined with a set ceiling on the number of rep points a user could receive over a given time period (say, 4-5 per month), which would help to prevent circumvention of this system.
Say a user reaches a 2-3 point limit for one thread/post. With this solution, posters would not be able to go to several other random posts he made and dump 3 points on each just to boost his rep exponentially. Once he hit 4 or 5 total for the month, he'd be frozen until the next month.

If we were to set this limit a little lower (say 2 points per month), the max a user could receive in a year would be 24 points. Enough to distinguish oneself, but not enough to seem ridiculously stratospheric. If Roosh feels a poster has done something particularly worthwhile, he can add a point or two beyond this limit at his discretion ("admin exception"), which could serve as a mark of distinction for an individual user.

This is a simple way to ensure that those who acquire large masses of rep points are most likely to be those who create a broad body of good material, rather than just one or two good ideas/posts.

Concerns expressed here:

(03-06-2012 11:34 AM)Soma Wrote:  

(03-06-2012 11:31 AM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

The biggest flaw with the former rep system was that it didn't make the distinction between a good post/thread and a good member. One guy could have more points for a single thread or post than a member who has brought value consistently over time.

Exactly, that's what I see as the biggest flaw as well (see my post above too.)

...could easily be addressed with this solution.

*: Limits are all theoretical and can be played around with later.

Problem 2:

(03-06-2012 11:42 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

Here are some things I observed recently.

1. Guys excoriating other guys for not having sufficient rep to be making certain claims.

Solution: It is true that reputation has been used as sort of an "e-penis" measure.

One way to mitigate this, i believe, would be to hide the rep number in a user's profile, rather than have it displayed openly next to the username in the forum.
People will still be able to click on a user's profile, search a bit, and find out who has rep. From there, they'd still be able to track that user's best posts and the like (the best benefit of the rep system), or add reputation themselves.

However, people would be less apt to make the snap judgments they do upon seeing that little green number next to every post, since it simply won't be as visible. E-penis measuring would still take place (the rep number would still be accessible), but this way the e-penises won't be flopping around openly in people's faces as we converse, and people will focus on them less.

We can keep the benefits, and minimize the dick measuring somewhat.

Problem(s) 3:

(03-06-2012 11:42 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

2. Guys openly and repeatedly complaining that, despite all their contributions, they aren't getting enough rep. They would then get a couple of courtesy points.

4. Guys publicly asking for rep in exchange for information. "If you give me a rep point, I'll tell you."

5. I had a guy PM-ing me immediately after giving me a rep point asking me to give him one in return.

6. Guys using rep as a way to retort to disagreements. "When you have this much rep you can X."

Solution: Banhammer.

Let's make these bannable offenses, perhaps with a warning or two to precede the punishment. Report instances of this behavior whenever you see them, and we'll have Tuth and Roosh sort them out.

A hard stance on rep-whoring will limit its spread.

Problem 4:

(03-06-2012 11:42 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

3. Guys giving rep just for the sake of rounding off a member to the next major digit (saw three examples of this).

Solution: I have three ideas that could be used to mitigate this.

a) The solution to problem 1, in which quotas are suggested, could limit this (no handing out 2-3 points to one user in a month just to boost them up).
b) The need to give a reason for reputation, and the subjection of that reason to moderation (ex: a moderator could remove blatantly superfluous rep).
c) The need for rep points to be tied directly to posts from now on. No more giving rep randomly without it being linked to a post (and tied further to an explanation for that link, as suggested in point b).

This could help to make rep less of a casual, throwaway act, and more of a substantial display of respect.

Conclusion: If we were to apply some of these solutions in some combination (after the month long cooling off period), we could conceivably have the best of both worlds: a rep system that makes the tracking of good posts easier and allows for top posters/posts to be distinguished easily (as all the pro-rep members want), while also limiting the spread of rep whoring, e-penis measuring and other abuse that those supporting the end of the rep system are rightfully concerned about.

[sine wave killer]

I didn't have any rep points but when I saw a quality post that was deserving I always gave the poster a +1.

Sometimes there was a poster who had lots of rep points, you didn't always have to agree with them but usually the guys who had +20 had made very insightful and valuable contributions through data sheets, insights etc.

[Hencredible Casanova]

(03-06-2012 01:38 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

Can you go without providing that incentive? Sure, but don't pretend that there won't be a price (read: fewer high quality early posts/more laziness). To prevent that, the average guy would have to have your more altruistic mindset, and we know this isn't the case.

Point taken. But I also think there's a flip side to that coin. I think rep points can incent some people to fabricate, embellish, or simply drop meaningless posts, with "mainstream appeal" as G said, in an attempt to garner more points. I've seen that too many times.

[thegmanifesto]

Here is the best argument I can think of of keeping rep points:

It was a nice and easy way of "thanking" people.

Now if someone gives me some really good info, I have to send them a pm.

That is going to get tired real quick.

Thoughts?

[Seamus]

(03-06-2012 01:15 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

I have the feeling that more underlying discontent from Mixx was welling up beneath the surface and this was just the final straw for him...For the last several days I felt some sort of fall-out brewing so I'm disappointed but not shocked that he split.

I agree. After reading the proposal to start a more secure/VIP subforum largely on the basis of rep points, I was kind of half-expecting Roosh to disable them (which I understand) and also for Mixx to feel insulted by it (which I also understand).

For what it's worth I think rep points added a helluva lot more value to this forum than they took away. People can mock all they want about it being lame or immature to value what are technically worthless data points, but to do so completely misses the point. As other posters keep pointing out, it's human nature to want recognition for time spent and value added, which is reflected all over society in everything from trophy cabinets to framed diplomas to certificates of achievement. More importantly, this desire for recognition is an extremely powerful motivator, an incentive to crank out quality data sheets and well-thought-out responses.

As far as rep points being over-valued by some members, both junior and senior, no doubt that's been the case. But they help cut through the noise of 100s of posters, many with similar names, and I still can't figure out what the drawback was. I don't think anybody here really ever believed that there's a 1-to-1 ratio of points to value-added. For me as a relative newbie, the only real distinction I drew was between someone with little to no rep and someone with maybe 15+ points, purely as a signifier to maybe pay little more attention to what the latter has to say.

My 2 cents.

[Commander Shepard]

(03-06-2012 01:38 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

Want noobs to feel pressure to contribute early on and make spot-on posts? Add rep, and give the possibility of recognition if they post a solid datasheet or other information right off the bat. Incentivize that behavior.

I'm a noob. I am not driven by rep points.

I'm driven by my desire to improve my game.

Also, I am driven to help guys struggling to get laid. I can see being a pro-repper if the points came with a monetary return, but to me, rep points are just a way of showboating and displaying "attaboys" to everyone online, just like those glossy tan chicks on Facebook that Tweet every god damn thing they are doing for thumbs ups and pokes.

I mean, are there any noobs, like myself, that are working on their game to up their green number?

[soup]

(03-06-2012 11:31 AM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

I think one idea would be to have a "like" or "+1" button for each post that people can click on if they find value in it.

Then for the actual member, we can bestow titles or have a "recommend" or "follow" or "subscribe" button or something like that so that people who think the member brings value can recognize him. It sounds way too much like Facebook and we can come up with different terms but you get the idea.

The biggest flaw with the former rep system was that it didn't make the distinction between a good post/thread and a good member. One guy could have more points for a single thread or post than a member who has brought value consistently over time.

This is cool- do you mean like a rep-point system for posts? So, there'd be a place on the forum to view the posts as ordered by their reputations? That's great, because then we'd be able to see which game strategies, ideas, etc. have the most value. This would also foster a competition of ideas and quality instead of a popularity contest.
We could also institute a negative rep option to help keep things balanced. The whole thing could be anonymous- like voting.

And, I think this would get people more pro-actively involved... like they could be voting on every post they read.

So, for each post, you'd be able to give a "yea" or "nea." And, it wouldn't be set in stone. You'd always be able to revisit a post and change your mind. Let's say you read about a new tactic, it sounds cool, so you give it "yea," but you go out and try it and it doesn't work, then you could take back your "yea" and post your report to see if others have advice. At the very least you'd be able help other members avoid a dubious strategy.

I think this would directly improve everyone's game in real life.

In the CP, there could also be way list of "posts that you've rated" ordered by date.

I think that would bring a much needed order to the forum.

And, the poster who makes the best posts would obviously get the recognition and reputation that they deserve.

[thegmanifesto]

One last thought:

I really don't think there was a conspiracy against anyone on here, meaning that I don't think there was anyone constantly dropping dope info, and wouldn't get rewarded with rep points.

Was there a guy that dropped 50 quality Sheets that only had 10 rep points?

Or a guy who consistently gave great info over 2000 posts and only had 2 rep points?

Sure some guys might have had "inflated" rep point totals, but I don't think anyone had significantly less than they deserved.

If there was any "deflation" going down, I think it happened at the top (not including myself in here).

Thoughts?

Am I wrong?

[Vacancier Permanent]

Another idea to consider is to add a "thank you" option at the end of every post someone makes and then showing under their post count, the number of times that poster has been thanked. This is what the Warrior Forum has been using. Thoughts on it?

[Excelsior]

(03-06-2012 01:56 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

Another idea to consider is to add a "thank you" option at the end of every post someone makes and then showing under their post count, the number of times that poster has been thanked. This is what the Warrior Forum has been using. Thoughts on it?

This would be useful, although it would still be missing a way to track good individual posts.

[scotian]

At 46, I had too many rep points

[UrbanNerd]

Ummm....This is a message board.

/the end

[Excelsior]

(03-06-2012 01:52 PM)Commander Shepard Wrote:  

(03-06-2012 01:38 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

Want noobs to feel pressure to contribute early on and make spot-on posts? Add rep, and give the possibility of recognition if they post a solid datasheet or other information right off the bat. Incentivize that behavior.

I'm a noob. I am not driven by rep points.
I'm driven by my desire to improve my game.

That's nice, but not everyone is like you. Most people behave differently when incentives are placed in front of them. Some of us are like you and HC-all about the right thing and altruism, posting constantly rep or no rep.

Many other people are not. For them, the fact that reputation (recognition) can come early with solid datasheets and other information is a big draw, and can catalyze more posting down the road.
People do use tangible things like this to guide their actions-its in human nature. Sure its superficial, but it is realistic.

Quote:

I mean, are there any noobs, like myself, that are working on their game to up their green number?

If you honestly do not believe that there are not quite a few people who would be significantly less inclined to put forward good datasheets/info without rep and/or other similar factors, then I don't know what to tell you.
You must live on a very altruistic planet.

[speakeasy]

There's been quite some intelligent discussion on the issue here. I was somewhat on the fence at first at the decision. But after carefully reading through everyone's comments here, I'm convinced that the points should come back, but with some reforms in place to limit rep inflation and make sure reps are coming from wide contribution, not just one heavy hitting datasheet.

The G is right, people WILL become lazy and feel less motivated to bring forth the goods. Roosh recently mentioned in another thread that he wants to focus more on quality and less quantity and limiting enrollment days was a brilliant way to do that. But I feel that eliminating the rep system is antithetical to the goal of motivating guys to post quality.

Sure a guy like Mixx might have been a bit big-headed at times with regards to his popularity and rep points, but no one can argue that the dude wasn't bringing the goods. So if the emphasis is on quality and people get a bit big-headed, so be it. I think it will make people more driven to be solid contributors.

[Excelsior]

(03-06-2012 01:43 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(03-06-2012 01:38 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

Can you go without providing that incentive? Sure, but don't pretend that there won't be a price (read: fewer high quality early posts/more laziness). To prevent that, the average guy would have to have your more altruistic mindset, and we know this isn't the case.

Point taken. But I also think there's a flip side to that coin. I think rep points can incent some people to fabricate, embellish, or simply drop meaningless posts, with "mainstream appeal" as G said, in an attempt to garner more points. I've seen that too many times.

No system is perfect-all can be abused.

That, and the community has already shown its ability to cut through bullshit with the whole Dash Global fiasco. He exploited precisely the dynamic you're pointing out (fabricating data sheets about popular locations) and earned a decent amount of rep for it.
In the end, however, he paid the price. We're fully capable of governing the spread of bullshit ourselves.

[tomtud]

I think a solution would be to have a poll on this thread if it will settle the issue. Personally, I could care less if the person has 1 or 100 reps. As long as the information is useful, that is what is important.

Having something taken away from you does hurt, does sting ( place any negative here). However, if a person wants to be rewarded from their post should not be their instinct in sharing their data per se. When I give a report I am not thinking ohhhh I will get a point. I want others to hit the ground running when they get to a specific destination or learn from my mistakes. Vice versa for others when I read their input.

I respect all members here who provide a community of knowledge in our quests. Do they get rewarded by rep points? Or do they possibly receive invites to take a trip, hangout in a city and seek and destroy with a like minded wing? What is a fair solution? Well, let the air clear so that all those involved have clear heads and decide from there.

[Hencredible Casanova]

(03-06-2012 01:58 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(03-06-2012 01:56 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

Another idea to consider is to add a "thank you" option at the end of every post someone makes and then showing under their post count, the number of times that poster has been thanked. This is what the Warrior Forum has been using. Thoughts on it?

This would be useful, although it would still be missing a way to track good individual posts.

I think there might be a way to track that by having a "highly recommended posts" column. Posts that have been recommended a lot can be maintained or highlighted through some feature so that they can be easily accessed.

Fundamentally, I think the rep system is an ineffective way to measure value. We should be focused on the content, not the member and his outsized personality. That's so juvenile. As Roosh said, this isn't high school.

Anyone who wants to promote themselves would be well-advised to have their own website to direct traffic to. Some guys on here are already doing that (i.e. GManifesto, Neil Skywalker, Roosh). The forum isn't meant to be a place where one controls the discussion; it's a place to share info and step aside.

[Lumiere]

I think I was on here for 2 years before I even noticed that there was a rep system.

Need to thank someone? Just thank them in the thread. That's what I usually do.

As long as it was used in fun I think it was fine. If it becomes an ego thing or a point of contention then its outlived its usefulness.

[Timoteo]

"I agree. After reading the proposal to start a more secure/VIP subforum largely on the basis of rep points, I was kind of half-expecting Roosh to disable them (which I understand) and also for Mixx to feel insulted by it (which I also understand)."

It's something like this that makes me question a person's motives for being on the forum. Why feel the need for an exclusive club-within-a-club? That's simply an inflated sense of self-importance. Yes, that too can be part of human nature (the need to feel you're better than the next person, and be treated that way), but must the forum reflect EVERY aspect of the worst parts of our nature? I don't see the need for the "celebrity at the club" treatment. Again, it undercuts the primary purpose of the forum - sharing with any and everyone that stops by. Recognition within the larger group is one thing, but I don't even understand the suggestion of something like this.

[thegmanifesto]

(03-06-2012 02:13 PM)Lumiere Wrote:  

I think I was on here for 2 years before I even noticed that there was a rep system.

Me too. No one used to use them.

Quote:

Need to thank someone? Just thank them in the thread. That's what I usually do

The problem with this is a thread will get clogged up with a bunch of "thanks" posts every two seconds.

[Hencredible Casanova]

(03-06-2012 02:08 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(03-06-2012 01:43 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(03-06-2012 01:38 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

Can you go without providing that incentive? Sure, but don't pretend that there won't be a price (read: fewer high quality early posts/more laziness). To prevent that, the average guy would have to have your more altruistic mindset, and we know this isn't the case.

Point taken. But I also think there's a flip side to that coin. I think rep points can incent some people to fabricate, embellish, or simply drop meaningless posts, with "mainstream appeal" as G said, in an attempt to garner more points. I've seen that too many times.

No system is perfect-all can be abused.

That, and the community has already shown its ability to cut through bullshit with the whole Dash Global fiasco. He exploited precisely the dynamic you're pointing out (fabricating data sheets about popular locations) and earned a decent amount of rep for it.
In the end, however, he paid the price. We're fully capable of governing the spread of bullshit ourselves.

The funny thing is Dash wasn't let go because of his constant BS, but because he had some kind of meltdown. There were some guys on here that have stated they didn't think he should have been let go. There was even a thread before he got canceled debating whether or not he should be let go (due to his high number of posts and rep points.)

The rep system inevitably acts as an insurance mechanism against getting eliminated. Most members who've been banned have been newbs or guys with few, if any, points.

[Roosh]

A lot of the suggestions you guys are making is just not possible with the software unless I hire a programmer to mess with the core code.

I want something more Danish-like and less American. The 1% here is headed towards oppression of the 99%. I want a flatter system that decreases e-bragging, e-power trips and e-penis slaps.

Honestly the problems started when I enable post reputation. Before that the reputation system was not causing many problems. One solution is to go back to the old system and delete all post ratings.

[Samseau]

(03-06-2012 02:17 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

A lot of the suggestions you guys are making is just not possible with the software unless I hire a programmer to mess with the core code.

I want something more Danish-like and less American. The 1% here is headed towards oppression of the 99%. I want a flatter system that decreases e-bragging, e-power trips and e-penis slaps.

Honestly the problems started when I enable post reputation. Before that the reputation system was not causing many problems. One solution is to go back to the old system and delete all post ratings.

I might be able to get you a top notch programmer (he turned down offers from Google) who could do whatever you wanted with this forum to work for free, if you're interested.