[el mechanico]

(03-06-2012 10:43 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

I'm with MiXX and Mr. GM on this one.

Third. Sure the system is flawed but it's what we're used to.

What exactly led you to this decision?

Maybe we can go back to our old rep system it didn't seem to be a problem.

I can understand why Mixx is upset. He helped alot and was proud of his rep and what all of us wrote about him. It was also an indicator of who's real. I might say some outlandish stuff here. Am I real? Look at my rep and pm anyone who's met me.

[Excelsior]

(03-06-2012 10:57 AM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

I understand the desire some have to be recognized for their contributions, but perhaps we can come up with some other way aside from rep points (i.e. a periodic poll or contest of some sort, or a bestowing of titles as Vicious mentioned).

I think we can all agree that the rep point system was fundamentally flawed.

Perhaps there are other options.

How about this: instead of tossing the entire system out altogether, why not work to a) identify the largest of its fundamental flaws (guys can just post what they think) and b) modify the system accordingly?
We could have our cake and eat it too. No need for a zero sum game.

[Soma]

(03-06-2012 11:10 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(03-06-2012 10:57 AM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

I understand the desire some have to be recognized for their contributions, but perhaps we can come up with some other way aside from rep points (i.e. a periodic poll or contest of some sort, or a bestowing of titles as Vicious mentioned).

I think we can all agree that the rep point system was fundamentally flawed.

Perhaps there are other options.

How about this: instead of tossing the entire system out altogether, why not work to a) identify the largest of its fundamental flaws (guys can just post what they think) and b) modify the system accordingly?
We could have our cake and eat it too. No need for a zero sum game.

Off the top of my head, one way this could potentially work is if you get reputation points only per post and a maximum of one per post. This would avoid a person getting 20 points for posting one data sheet and someone posting continuous solid information, but not necessarily in datasheet format or length, getting none. Hence, this would be more indicative of how many useful posts the member has made rather than how popular they are.

Though the former rep system was far from perfect, it was the best thing for assessing a member's value on the forum for quickly determining how much weight to place on their words. As well, although the rep points have no inherent value I think Roosh may have underestimated their psychological importance as an incentive system for many (and not just for MiXX.) We humans are odd like that.

As with the others, I think an improvement to the rep points system, rather than its complete removal, is the best way forward.

[Vice]

Although I've just registered this month, I've been browsing this forum for years. Personally I don't think it's a good decision. Just because a system has flaws (which one doesn't?) it doesn't mean that you throw the entire thing out.

Quote:

No more using this number to judge others.

You know, I've seen admins and mods say the same thing about lots of other things on other forums before doing away with them - things like titles, post counts etc.

People are going to judge anyway. In absence of the rep system, the judgement will now be solely based on post count. There is no difference in the end, the judgement will exist regardless.

It's not as if people were trading rep points, which is the bane of rep systems on large forums. But then this isn't exactly a 'large' forum either...

[Hencredible Casanova]

I think one idea would be to have a "like" or "+1" button for each post that people can click on if they find value in it.

Then for the actual member, we can bestow titles or have a "recommend" or "follow" or "subscribe" button or something like that so that people who think the member brings value can recognize him. It sounds way too much like Facebook and we can come up with different terms but you get the idea.

The biggest flaw with the former rep system was that it didn't make the distinction between a good post/thread and a good member. One guy could have more points for a single thread or post than a member who has brought value consistently over time.

[Soma]

(03-06-2012 11:31 AM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

The biggest flaw with the former rep system was that it didn't make the distinction between a good post/thread and a good member. One guy could have more points for a single thread or post than a member who has brought value consistently over time.

Exactly, that's what I see as the biggest flaw as well (see my post above too.)

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

I think there is too much drama over this. Sure, I just got my 2 rep points for posting some quality content and was so proud of them, but does it matter? I judge MiXX to be a great poster because he posts sensible advice with good arguments and grammar, not because of his rep points. Why does it matter that they are disabled (and temporarily too perhaps?) There is really no need for anyone to be offended over this change.

p.s. still, now that we've already had years of rep system, I think it's better to preserve it simply because it doesn't do any harm to do so

[Tuthmosis]

(03-06-2012 11:05 AM)basilransom Wrote:  

The Talmud has a good saying on this, "Kinat sofrim tarbeh chochma" - "Jealousy among scholars increases wisdom." One of my friends was very fond of saying this in regards to pussy, as we were always competing on who was getting more

You know shit's getting real when Jews stop dropping Talmud into the discussion.

As the guy who, at last count, had pulled into number two in this silly race, I have a few comments about it. Frankly, I'm as surprised as you guys to see Roosh take this drastic action, but I'm not really opposed to it. I'm curious what this will do.

Guys like us pay a bigger price in this communistic move but, right now, it makes more sense than not. Yes, it was a good way to know you were getting the recognition of your peers. And, it was a ready way to tell how credible somebody was, in general, to the community. But, there was also a ugly thing happening with rep points that was starting to make it less about those things and more about something else. It was quickly becoming a sort of dirty currency that was beginning to get gamed. Here are some things I observed recently.

If you recognize yourself in this list, don't take offense. Chances are, you're one of my favorite members on the board, and there's no ill-will intended. Plus, there's already a lot of beef in the air:

1. Guys excoriating other guys for not having sufficient rep to be making certain claims.

2. Guys openly and repeatedly complaining that, despite all their contributions, they aren't getting enough rep. They would then get a couple of courtesy points.

3. Guys giving rep just for the sake of rounding off a member to the next major digit (saw three examples of this).

4. Guys publicly asking for rep in exchange for information. "If you give me a rep point, I'll tell you."

5. I had a guy PM-ing me immediately after giving me a rep point asking me to give him one in return.

6. Guys using rep as a way to retort to disagreements. "When you have this much rep you can X."

I compiled most of rep through a series of longer game-related posts where I shared some of my field-tested tactics. As many of you know, I'm less of a venue data-sheet guy since--despite my travels--I spend most of my time gaming in the states. I was proud of my points and happy whenever someone dropped me an additional one, but I tried to let it be something running in the background. And, I made it point to be something I never really brought up. I knew I had standing in the community, but I didn't think the fact that I pulled 5 points ahead of this member or that member made me 5 points better than him. Shit, I had more points than Roosh. What the fuck does that mean?

When Roosh picked me as moderator, I didn't add that shit to my signature--even though that would make sense when I close threads or tell newbs to use the search feature. I didn't insist on a custom title. It was just a way to help the community. On the occasions that I've had to axe someone, I did it thoughtfully and carefully.

What am I saying? We gotta chill about the points. Let's not lose sight of why we're here in first place. No one is going to confuse you for a newb. Perhaps this isn't the right solution, but a "cooling off period" is probably not a bad idea. I like the idea of custom titles, but--I assure you--that would create a new breed of problem.

Stop status-whoring.

-Tuthmosis

[el mechanico]

(03-06-2012 11:40 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

I think there is too much drama over this. Sure, I just got my 2 rep points for posting some quality content and was so proud of them, but does it matter? I judge MiXX to be a great poster because he posts sensible advice with good arguments and grammar, not because of his rep points. Why does it matter that they are disabled (and temporarily too perhaps?) There is really no need for anyone to be offended over this change.

Why wouldn't he be offended? He had 100+ comments attached to his profile here that he collected over years of time taken away.

[Moma]

(03-06-2012 11:40 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

I think there is too much drama over this. Sure, I just got my 2 rep points for posting some quality content and was so proud of them, but does it matter? I judge MiXX to be a great poster because he posts sensible advice with good arguments and grammar, not because of his rep points. Why does it matter that they are disabled (and temporarily too perhaps?) There is really no need for anyone to be offended over this change.

If you look at the psychology of human nature, we need competition. We need a gauge to measure our worth. Some of us thrive off of this. Why run faster if there is no measurement of our speed?

Why berate Toronto/DC lizards when there is no gauge of how a lizard should and shouldn't behave?

How would a new member know who is a valid poster and who is just a blowhard?

You would have to scroll through the countless threads to see who has some quality posts.

For instance, there are a few posters in here that I always read, regardless of which sector they post in, even though I have no interest in there.
It's just because I know they will always spit that real raw.

Example: I couldn't give a fcuk about Ukraine or Russia for lizards at this point yet I read some posters take on it, just because I may be able to use it for the future.

[worldwidetraveler]

Personally, I don't pay attention to reps or numbers like that. I don't post for a rep number but don't have a problem with someone else who does want that type of acknowledgment even though I don't understand it.

I know on other forums, a thanks button has worked nicely. People can thank a post and the total amount of thanks is displayed for everyone. At least that will show the OP's their contribution was appreciated. It can also cut down on needless "thanks for the post" responses.

I understand how some used the rep system to gauge a persons contribution. If you spend enough time on the forum, you generally understand who contributes great stuff and can look at more of their posts simply by clicking their profile link and view more posts (or something like that).

[Parlay44]

I'd like to see a +1 rating option on each post or reply instead of the star thread rating system. You could search threads and posts by most liked.

[Vice]

(03-06-2012 11:42 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

It was quickly becoming a sort of dirty currency that was beginning to get gamed.

Now post counts will become the new de facto currency. Why not do away with post counts too?

[WesternCancer]

I'm kind of on the fence about this, I agree with Tuthmosis that the points system kind of became a "status whoring" outlet, but it does recognize the guys who are well respected in this place, it was a good feeling to get some rep points. However, when I first joined I could tell who the top dogs were within a day or two of reading threads I didn't really need to look at rep points to see that. What about making it so that rep points are invisible on posts, but you can still write comments on guys' profiles? Then when a new guy comes he can look at someone he thinks is a good contributor and see all of their +1 posts and comments to see all of the knowledge they have droppped. I think it would discourage the rep points with little purpose and encourage a description of WHY you are giving someone acknowledgement.

[Mr.GM]

Both sides have valid points . But it would be a critical blow for the forum's longevity to lose guys with the caliber of a Mixx ,Athlone, El Mech ,G ..
I hope people settle over this issue soon.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

I see what you mean but I still think it's an excessive reaction to something innocent and experimental in nature. It's not like someone stole your money or ruined your reputation by removing these points. Everyone who is a good or bad poster 24 hours ago is still known as a good or bad poster. I take your comments seriously, and it's not because I remember that you've had 10, 20, 30 or 550 rep points.

[SimonRierdon]

(03-06-2012 11:42 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

(03-06-2012 11:05 AM)basilransom Wrote:  

The Talmud has a good saying on this, "Kinat sofrim tarbeh chochma" - "Jealousy among scholars increases wisdom." One of my friends was very fond of saying this in regards to pussy, as we were always competing on who was getting more

You know shit's getting real when Jews stop dropping Talmud into the discussion.

As the guy who, at last count, had pulled into number two in this silly race, I have a few comments about it. Frankly, I'm as surprised as you guys to see Roosh take this drastic action, but I'm not really opposed to it. I'm curious what this will do.

Guys like us pay a bigger price in this communistic move but, right now, it makes more sense than not. Yes, it was a good way to know you were getting the recognition of your peers. And, it was a ready way to tell how credible somebody was, in general, to the community. But, there was also a ugly thing happening with rep points that was starting to make it less about those things and more about something else. It was quickly becoming a sort of dirty currency that was beginning to get gamed. Here are some things I observed recently.

If you recognize yourself in this list, don't take offense. Chances are, you're one of my favorite members on the board, and there's no ill-will intended. Plus, there's already a lot of beef in the air:

1. Guys excoriating other guys for not having sufficient rep to be making certain claims.

2. Guys openly and repeatedly complaining that, despite all their contributions, they aren't getting enough rep. They would then get a couple of courtesy points.

3. Guys giving rep just for the sake of rounding off a member to the next major digit (saw three examples of this).

4. Guys publicly asking for rep in exchange for information. "If you give me a rep point, I'll tell you."

5. I had a guy PM-ing me immediately after giving me a rep point asking me to give him one in return.

6. Guys using rep as a way to retort to disagreements. "When you have this much rep you can X."

I compiled most of rep through a series of longer game-related posts where I shared some of my field-tested tactics. As many of you know, I'm less of a venue data-sheet guy since--despite my travels--I spend most of my time gaming in the states. I was proud of my points and happy whenever someone dropped me an additional one, but I tried to let it be something running in the background. And, I made it point to be something I never really brought up. I knew I had standing in the community, but I didn't think the fact that I pulled 5 points ahead of this member or that member made me 5 points better than him. Shit, I had more points than Roosh. What the fuck does that mean?

When Roosh picked me as moderator, I didn't add that shit to my signature--even though that would make sense when I close threads or tell newbs to use the search feature. I didn't insist on a custom title. It was just a way to help the community. On the occasions that I've had to axe someone, I did it thoughtfully and carefully.

What am I saying? We gotta chill about the points. Let's not lose sight of why we're here in first place. No one is going to confuse you for a newb. Perhaps this isn't the right solution, but a "cooling off period" is probably not a bad idea. I like the idea of custom titles, but--I assure you--that would create a new breed of problem.

Stop status-whoring.

-Tuthmosis

^This^
No further explanation necessary.

[Vacancier Permanent]

I 4th that. It might be trivial but that helps in knowing who are the respected members and specialist in a certain area. Simply clicking on their rep point and we can acccess to real gems which can benefit everyone. It helps everyone both the regulars and the newbies to know who is what and to whom turn to in case of a question that requires more of a personal touch. I invite you to reconsider eliminating those rep points as they are a valuable tool to gauge the members. My 2 centavos.

(03-06-2012 11:10 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  

(03-06-2012 10:43 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

I'm with MiXX and Mr. GM on this one.

Third. Sure the system is flawed but it's what we're used to.

What exactly led you to this decision?

Maybe we can go back to our old rep system it didn't seem to be a problem.

I can understand why Mixx is upset. He helped alot and was proud of his rep and what all of us wrote about him. It was also an indicator of who's real. I might say some outlandish stuff here. Am I real? Look at my rep and pm anyone who's met me.

[Hencredible Casanova]

(03-06-2012 11:42 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

(03-06-2012 11:05 AM)basilransom Wrote:  

The Talmud has a good saying on this, "Kinat sofrim tarbeh chochma" - "Jealousy among scholars increases wisdom." One of my friends was very fond of saying this in regards to pussy, as we were always competing on who was getting more

You know shit's getting real when Jews stop dropping Talmud into the discussion.

[Parlay44]

(03-06-2012 11:49 AM)Vice Wrote:  

(03-06-2012 11:42 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

It was quickly becoming a sort of dirty currency that was beginning to get gamed.

Now post counts will become the new de facto currency. Why not do away with post counts too?

Some guys don't even contribute. They just post endless pics in the fap threads!!

[OGNorCal707]

(03-06-2012 10:45 AM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

I think the point of the forum is to share experiences and insights so that we can all learn from each other in a reciprocal environment. The rep points aren't why any of us joined and they aren't redeemable for cash. Many longtime members who brought lots of value were "underrepped." That's because the process is completely arbitrary and doesn't require one member to rep another, even if he benefits from that person's contributions. Then, just as now, we all know who the real valuable members are. I think the rep system does more harm than good (in that it maintains egos), and I agree with the decision to have it removed.

I think HC's analysis is spot on. At first I liked the "rep point system", but I think it did get "out of hand", and it did turn into a massive popularity contest.

Personally, I think there were a few members that were "underrepped", while I had 12 points, I feel that I've been making solid posts for years, and a lot of people weren't giving me some credit I felt was due. I think this also applied to other guys like Nonpareil and Kerouac.

I think anyone who needs rep points on here, has some issue with their confidence and ego.

Last I saw Mixx had like 105 rep points, I'm sorry, but to me that was just a joke. It seemed like guys were turing into "fan boys", I never repped the guy, because after you get so many rep points, how is another one going to make a difference. I tried to only give points to new posters or guys that I felt really deserved it (like Athlone, Basil Ransom, Neil Skywalker, etc.)

Shit I looked through Mixx's rep point list, and I saw numerous guys who repped, not only twice, but sometimes as often as three or four times. I also noticed a couple members who barely had any points, only to get repped by Mixx, and lo and behold a bandwagon of other guys all of sudden repped that same member.

Plus, up until about a year ago, members barely gave out rep points, in the past 6 months they started giving them out like candy. A new member could drop one post and all of a sudden have 20 rep points overnight.

Meh.... I think if anything Roosh should have capped the point system.

I for one am not going to stop posting because all of my 12 "precious rep points have been taken away."

Maybe now people will think for themselves more, instead of being like "whoa this Mixx guy has 105 rep points, he must be a God or something, I'm going to put him on the pedestal and automatically believe everything he says."

[Roosh]

Okay I've made a new decision. I will go full Jante Law and eliminate post counts and usernames. We will now be known as numbers. For example: "Great data sheet no. 387, it really matches with what 718 said the other day. I may meet him and 2909 for a drink next week."

Now the pro-rep members, especially Athlone, have made some good arguments. How about this: let's try this for one month. On April 6 I will start a new thread and we will discuss how a no-rep system affects the forum, if there is a net gain or loss with this measure.

I hope Mixx and others who liked the rep system will just bear it for now to see what effect it has. I'm confident that it will be positive, but I'm not proud to reverse the decision.

[durangotang]

Here's an alternate idea: a data sheet score.

If and admin sees an excellent data sheet, the admin can give you a point which shows up as your data sheet score. That way people get credit for what really counts, and everything else is just banter. It takes the popularity out of the rep point system, and rewards real value. You want more points? Bust out more data sheets.

To implement this, any member who wanted prior data sheets counted could post links to prior sheets themselves in a dedicated thread from moderator consideration. The thread will get closed in 30 days.

I myself have been mostly bantering on the forum, some really good, some useless, but there are a lot of guys who have added detailed value and I think that there should be an acknowledgment of that value. Of course, there should be a minimal and basic criteria established for what constitutes a valid data sheet. Sound good?

[Hencredible Casanova]

(03-06-2012 12:17 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Okay I've made a new decision. I will go full Jante Law and eliminate post counts and usernames. We will now be known as numbers. For example: "Great data sheet no. 387, it really matches with what 718 said the other day. I may meet him and 2909 for a drink next week."

Now the pro-rep members, especially Athlone, have made some good arguments. How about this: let's try this for one month. On April 6 I will start a new thread and we will discuss how a no-rep system affects the forum, if there is a net gain or loss with this measure.

I hope Mixx and others who liked the rep system will just bear it for now to see what effect it has. I'm confident that it will be positive, but I'm not proud to reverse the decision.

Maybe setting on a specific date to evaluate this change isn't the best move as one may get the idea to sabotage the forum until then in order restore the rep system.

As for me, I never used a person's rep rating to judge the quality of their posts. Some of the most ridiculous and erroneous things I've read have come from highly rated members.

Information is information. I don't know anyone on the forum in person. Theoretically, a guy could be posting from his mom's basement under a completely fabricated persona for all I know.

Some members, who are verifiable and credible (i.e. Neil Skywalker), have been underrepped forever.

I agree wholeheartedly with Tuthmosis' post about the ratings shortcomings. It has long been a distraction and a disservice to the quality of the forum.

[CJ]

I'm sure Tuth takes some solace in the fact that he ended with a +69 rep score.