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"Glass Ceiling" EU Nonsense
#1

"Glass Ceiling" EU Nonsense

The EU seems determined to get more women into management positions regarless of their suitability for it.

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/vie...men.409764

What's your take on this?
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#2

"Glass Ceiling" EU Nonsense

It's the times, bro.

As people demand rights, entitlement, to more and more, special interest groups (any possible combination and permutation of such) seek to gain more as they realize that their incentive to apply disproportionate political pressure can win them benefits and that these are worth going after EVEN to the detriment of the well-being of society as a whole. Mancor Olsen's the Rise and Decline of Nations provides an economic explanation:

Imagine an economy of 100 dollars, of which you produce and receive 1%. No taxes, no redistribution, what you make is what you get. You then discover that if enough political pressure is applied, you can convince politicians to develop a redistributive system, and raise your share from 1% to 2%. However, the economy will suffer. Yet it is still in YOUR interest to carry out the lobbying campaign as long as the economy does not fall by more than 50%, for 2% of (100 - 50) equals 1, in which case there would be no gain. But say the economy only decreased by 10%. You will then have 2% of 90 dollars, 1.80. 80% richer. You didn't have to work HARDER. You just had to say "I have rights, I am entitled to this!"

This is just an illustration, but it gives you an idea of the real economic rationale for hurting society for the beneft of your own group. I'm not saying it's bad, because I personally believe redistribution serves a different, less tangible economic purpose - but redistribution and lobbying lead to economic inefficienies that decrease economic output.

Now let's get back to women.

This isn't JUST about women or affirmative action. It's about the political movement against ALL forms of discrimination.

The EU charter of fundamental rights title III article 21 is the epitome of this development:

1. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic
features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority,
property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.
2. Within the scope of application of the Treaty establishing the European Community and of the
Treaty on European Union, and without prejudice to the special provisions of those Treaties, any
discrimination on grounds of nationality shall be prohibited.


Doesn't sound so bad on the surface, does it?

What it in fact does is to outlaw people's right to choose based on personal preferences. As more and more people realize they can influence the law in their favor, they peddle to politicians to get them to include these articles in charters. Let's say a black lesbian applies for a job or promotion and is denied. She can then accuse the employer, if she wants, of discrimination towards her based on race, sex or sexual preference and in today's political climate, the employer would have to document his innocence and HOW the hell would do that when hiring is a notoriously gut-feeling exercise?

In Denmark, where maternity leave is 52 weeks, you are not allowed to fire women for reason's related to her pregnancy. Every once in a while, you will hear a story about how some small business just went bankrupt because they couldn't lay off a pregnant female employee when business went down the drain. They tried, she takes them to court, and they are annihilated. Now NO one has a job, but she gets her "damages". She just fucked up the economy a little more, and she is rewarded.

The charter is a totalitarian move on the behalf of descendants of the New Left and political correctness. By outlawing more and more discrimiation, what you are really doing is outlawing your right to free choice.

We move more and more towards a plan economy where politicians redistribute and deploy resources, be it physical or human capital, where they see fit.

Even as the EU is imploding economically, its leaders in Brussles, inconspicous and unknown to the public at large (the EU just elected a new President - did ANYONE notice?), horde more power to themselves to the detriment of individual freedom, and no one is willing to stop the machine because the majority of elected leaders realize which way things are going, and hope to get a chance to hop on the band-wagon after serving as Prime Minister in their own country.

It starts and ends with entitlement. The moral fallacy of believing you deserve something when you have nothing to offer has become wide-spread, especially in this day and age of reality stars, stupidity, SATC, quick fixes and no personal ethics. Where everyone's "beautiful" and "unique" and we are all "equal" (see the irony?). I hope the financial crisis and recession will be the lesson necessary to the national conscience that this cannot last. Christianity served an important function for civil society, namely charity. But it was purely altruistic. Imagine a system where you ONLY paid the taxes you wanted to? If it was to government, I sure as hell would only pay what I thought was strictly necessary for national defence and law enforcement, but that's because I'm a 25yo old male and able to fend for myself. If some priest was bashing guilt-tripping me, maybe I'd pay more to a church instead. Or just if I believed in Christian doctrine of charity, kindness to neighbors and the benefits of interdepence (vis-a-vis indepedence). But as soon as you said government will administer charity, and charity is not simply alms but also generous government-employee retirement packages, social security, medicare, medicaid, affirmative action, and so forth... you got the ball rolling on this nightmare.

A year from now you'll wish you started today
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#3

"Glass Ceiling" EU Nonsense

All these affirmative actions about women and minorities are disputable and have mixed results.They come mainly from pressure as a necessary evil and the extent of damage to the economy is difficult to calculate because they have many consequences.

One of the reasons of todays crisis is that the rest refuses to carry the burden for this affirmative action.Whose fault is this of the rest or the persons involved or the lobbyists remains to be cleared.
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#4

"Glass Ceiling" EU Nonsense

Quote: (03-06-2012 05:09 AM)flashbang Wrote:  

The EU seems determined to get more women into management positions regarless of their suitability for it.

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/vie...men.409764

What's your take on this?

For the record, I'm Third Way/Centre Left.

There is no legal barrier preventing women from seeking boardroom positions. There is no organized gender apartheid or "patriarchy". Women do not come from a pre-existing socio-economic disadvantage. There is no reason why a modern woman could not become say a CEO of a multinational company if she chooses to go down that path and is a suitable candidate for the job.

But the fact is, most women don't want to be on boardrooms, at least not the scale that men do.
Most women choose low paying fields like education, nursing or being some bullshit secretary. Women are underrepresented in big business by choice.

That said, there are some women who are boardroom material, do a quick Google search and you'll find a few from your state or country. Unless they live in say Norway which has quota laws, these women deserve to be in their positions on their own merit. HOWEVER, if a quota law were introduced you would start seeing lower quality people infiltrate the top end of companies, since women will be given a huge relative advantage in reaching the top.

Assuming men and women would make equally able board members (which is debateable), if women make say a quarter of a bank's middle management but MUST make say 50% of a boardroom, then obviously you're going to see a flood of women reach those positions who don't deserve to there. Which in itself is discriminating against men. If feminists want to achieve "gender equality" in the corporate world, then a quota system is merely a band aid fix. Any such "affirmative action" should happen organically, the law can't favour one group or the other like this, because that in itself is discrimination. If the EU or the feminist movement want more women in boardrooms, they should call for more women to enter related fields and climb the ladder, rather then giving them positions they don't deserve. Good luck to them in getting women to choose career paths which they just don't want to take (barring a few outliers).

Collary: I'm a fan of seeing disenfranchised (read: significantly more poor and uneducated then the countries average) groups making gains in the academic and business world, but affirmative action quota systems are not the way to do it. In an ideal world (I don't believe this would ever come to pass), everybody would be given a fair go to succeed in life (ie no poverty, humane accommodation, lack of crime filled ghettos, intact families, decent education system), but from that point onwards it all comes down to individual merit.

In summary: Women face no legal or socioeconomic disadvantage in getting onto boardrooms. Therefore if a woman can't get there through her own hard work and/or skillset, then she should not be there.
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#5

"Glass Ceiling" EU Nonsense

Quote: (03-06-2012 06:18 AM)P Dog Wrote:  

Therefore if a woman can't get there through her own hard work and/or skillset, then she should not be there.

In reality, this distinction is NEVER maintained. If there is an inequality, eventually people will say it's because of bigoted discrimination. The root cause is egalitarianism.

Egalitarians fundamentally believe that every individual is self-determining, and completely autonomous. The circumstances of their background are irrelevant. Distinctions of race, sex and other involuntary groupings are baseless. Given all that, there should be equality of outcome among every possible grouping in society. Any existing inequality ultimately arises from oppression and bigotry.

Consider anti-discrimination legislation - in the US we went from a regime that tolerated government discrimination within certain places and sectors, to one where government AND employment discrimination was banned throughout. And though things improved, some people felt that it was insufficient, as equality of outcome had not been attained. To get closer to a reality with perfect equality of outcome, it became evident that one might have to tip the scales a little, or maybe a lot, to achieve it, using quotas, preferences, affirmative action, etc. And so the egalitarians almost immediately began to press for such practices. Existing inequalities, without any apparent sources of bigotry causing them, were nonetheless taken as evidence of willful oppression.

I'm not even stating a position here. I'm just saying this is what is. Take our example, of women in boardrooms. Women formerly did not enter the workforce, or would leave it too soon to attain an executive level position. But things have changed, and some are now within reach.

Say that without any relevant government policy promoting the elevation of women, 10% of board members would be women. Perhaps the egalitarians would be content as they saw this number rising from 0 to 10%. And then the number begins to stall. The egalitarians get anxious. They start to speak of a 'crisis,' of how 'progress' has stopped. That the gains we have made are under threat, and that bigotry is looming once more over our fair nation. There might be perfectly valid reasons for the relative paucity of women on executive boards.

But the egalitarians dismiss them. As far as they are concerned, if there is any inequality of outcome between men and women, that is evidence in itself of bigotry. Because, damn it, men and women are the same, so it's not possible to have a fair process that yields such disparate results. So quotas are introduced.

The only resolution, the only way to avoid introducing such quotas lies in rejecting the fundamental premise with which nearly everyone agrees: Men and women aren't the same. They may differ in their abilities, their desires, their work ethic*. To expect equality of outcome between two unequal groups is admittedly insane. So the egalitarians assert that the two groups are in fact equal, so that they can plausibly set equality of outcome as an attainable and laudable goal.

*And this isn't to say that one is superior to the other. Just that there are differences between them that may lead to differences in outcomes.

Summary: The only way to not have quotas and affirmative action for women is to recognize that men and women may be different, in a way that has consequences. This is at odds with the vast majority of contemporary society.

Women may well face unfair obstacles in getting to the boardroom. Forget women, PEOPLE do - there's all kinds of scheming and dealing needed to get to that level. But even under perfectly meritocratic circumstances, women differ from men in ways that would prevent them from achieving equality with men in the board room if no quotas were instituted.
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