Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States

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Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - Dr. Howard - 06-26-2015

Quote: (06-26-2015 08:52 PM)Double Salad Wrote:

The United States, tune in next week for...

....
- It will be outlawed to name children gender specific names
...

This was on good morning america just the other day the story was "rising trend of gender neutral names" My RVF skeptical ears immediately perked up as they talked about names like Ryan, Taylor etc. all boy names going on girls.

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - CuntLord - 06-26-2015

Game Opener: Gay Marriage Legalization by the supreme court

The silver lining in all of this is that, starting from tonight and for the next 2 weeks, you can use this as a game opener on a set of girls.

"What do you ladies think of gay marriage being legal in all 50 states now? How do you feel about it?"

"Do any of you ladies have any gay friends? What do they think about the supreme court decision? To make gay marriage legal in all 50 states? How do you feel about this?"

Multiple variations, etcetera, etcetera.

It is a opinion opener, to get the conversation going. It doesn't matter if the girl is liberal or conservative. Simply calibrate your subsequent banter accordingly.

This is an opener that you can beat to death for the next 2 weeks at least.

Be well,

CuntLord, the Dark Lord of Pussy

p.s. If you are up for the 48 hours "gay marriage opener" liberal girl bang challenge, record your bangs on this thread. http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-48609-...pid1052757

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - SirTimothy - 06-26-2015

Quote: (06-26-2015 10:14 PM)speakeasy Wrote:

Quote: (06-26-2015 09:59 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:

OK so now we have gay marriage. What will the left try to pull out as the next social cause du jour?

I'm more curious how non friendly churches will handle this and how the feds plan on enforcing it. Can a pastor say no to this?

Not to mention, what can we expect as the next big social "crisis"? Things such as polygamy and pederasty are giant steps away from gay marriage.

The next step will be a sweeping left-wing McCarthyism. "Bigot" is the new "pinko". They won the culture war, now they roam the countryside shooting any survivors they can find. I suspect the Mormon and Catholic churches is where they'll focus their next attack.

One thing I think we need to discuss as non-brainwashed men is how do we find our place in society? How do we react to people who are more and more hostile in their political correctness? In real life, I just try to avoid even talking about gay issues, because virtually everyone my age or younger is extremely pro gay to the point that not sharing their enthusiasm would make you suspect. I really try to avoid situations where I'll be put on the spot and have to talk about what I truly feel on these issues like feminism, gay marriage, etc. I'm not religious, so I can't take any refuge in the churches or mosques to be around people who aren't hostile toward my world views. Do I just resign myself to further isolation?

speakeasy, I am almost in the same situation as you, but I find that having just a few like-minded friends and family members makes a big difference. Thing is, most of them have been around me since I was little - I wouldn't know where to meet people like them if I had to find them today. But if at all possible figure out how to find some people like that - I think you'd feel a lot less isolated.

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - Truth Teller - 06-26-2015

Quote: (06-26-2015 10:14 PM)speakeasy Wrote:

The next step will be a sweeping left-wing McCarthyism. "Bigot" is the new "pinko". They won the culture war, now they roam the countryside shooting any survivors they can find. I suspect the Mormon and Catholic churches is where they'll focus their next attack.

One thing I think we need to discuss as non-brainwashed men is how do we find our place in society? How do we react to people who are more and more hostile in their political correctness? In real life, I just try to avoid even talking about gay issues, because virtually everyone my age or younger is extremely pro gay to the point that not sharing their enthusiasm would make you suspect. I really try to avoid situations where I'll be put on the spot and have to talk about what I truly feel on these issues like feminism, gay marriage, etc. I'm not religious, so I can't take any refuge in the churches or mosques to be around people who aren't hostile toward my world views. Do I just resign myself to further isolation?

In times like these, I'm always reminded of this passage from the Gospel of Matthew: "'But who do you say that I am?' Simon Peter answered 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon bar Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter (Petros), and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."

The gates of Hades will not prevail. If these SJW fucks want to come after the churches, they'll end up like McCarthy did: discredited and irrelevant. Their names will become pejoratives. At least they'll stop pretending that they care about the Constitution then.

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - robreke - 06-26-2015

Quote: (06-26-2015 07:28 PM)Roosh Wrote:

I'm disappointed at the number of men in this thread who cannot see more than a few months in the future at how such a ruling will effect society and ultimately, the way of life they currently enjoy---how this is but a beginning of getting the camel's full body in the tent and pushing for more policies that will marginalize their lifestyles in a short amount of time (i.e. within 10 years). But that's okay, because many of us here do understand what this ruling means, what the attack on the Confederate flag means, etc., and we will continue sounding the alarm. We will now begin to scratch the depths of degeneracy that no civilization has explored before. Many dark years await us.

^ Exactly. This ruling has deep and long term implications for the future of western civilization let alone the USA.

Give these subversive activists an inch and they will take a thousand miles. I hear the gay movement is already lobbying for other perceived 'wrongs' put upon them by the laws of the U.S. Emboldened by the court's decision today, they will use this as a rallying cry to push until their weird, unnatural , subversive values and viewpoints saturate every facet of our once beloved, free and yes, good and decent country.

The only way to deal with these types is to completely defeat them. There is no compromise. There is no meeting in the middle. They must be completely defeated and removed from office. Their already (arguably irreversible) actions and legislations must be completely reversed and eradicated.

The Conservatives and Republicans (who I'm fed up with nearly as much as the Dems) try to get along and compromise. They are so scared of being labeled homophobic, racist , misogynist or some other moniker, that they feel they must walk on egg shells and negotiate and get along with their liberal 'friends'. This is why they're getting buried by the left. The whole time, the hard left democrats are laughing at this weakness. Laughing and taking advantage of it. Probably much the same way ISIS and other terrorist groups laugh at the USA , with all of our unbelievable military might, allowing and putting up with the terror they inflict upon us when we could wipe many of them out with a few well placed neutron bombs.

The left is prevailing because they lie, cheat and go for utter and complete victory for their vision of the world. So far they seem to be achieving it.

If this country ends up completely in the gutter and our course is not reversed, then years from now, conservative historians will look back at today as a seminal event where the culture tides irreversibly shifted.

I end with a quote from the Roman Statesman, Cicero that rings as true and appropriate now as it did over 2000 years ago:

“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.”

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - Slim Shady - 06-26-2015

To completely distill this down in an overly simplistic way, taking out all excesses and biases like religion and morality from the equation we have:

More gay marriage/adoption/normalization means more people who will support people like Emma Sulkowicz rather than facts, due process, and Paul.

So which side are you going to be on?

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - dog - 06-26-2015

Quote: (06-26-2015 10:14 PM)speakeasy Wrote:

Quote: (06-26-2015 09:59 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:

OK so now we have gay marriage. What will the left try to pull out as the next social cause du jour?

I'm more curious how non friendly churches will handle this and how the feds plan on enforcing it. Can a pastor say no to this?

Not to mention, what can we expect as the next big social "crisis"? Things such as polygamy and pederasty are giant steps away from gay marriage.

The next step will be a sweeping left-wing McCarthyism. "Bigot" is the new "pinko". They won the culture war, now they roam the countryside shooting any survivors they can find. I suspect the Mormon and Catholic churches is where they'll focus their next attack.

One thing I think we need to discuss as non-brainwashed men is how do we find our place in society? How do we react to people who are more and more hostile in their political correctness? In real life, I just try to avoid even talking about gay issues, because virtually everyone my age or younger is extremely pro gay to the point that not sharing their enthusiasm would make you suspect. I really try to avoid situations where I'll be put on the spot and have to talk about what I truly feel on these issues like feminism, gay marriage, etc. I'm not religious, so I can't take any refuge in the churches or mosques to be around people who aren't hostile toward my world views. Do I just resign myself to further isolation?

Quote: (06-26-2015 10:19 PM)bacon Wrote:

It must be a really difficult and confusing time to be a conservative old person (80 years +) in America today. Personally, as a millennial who went through the liberal brainwashing of an American educational experience through University and has had overt and subliminal pro gay/liberal messages relayed to me daily for years in the media (film, music, TV, journalism, social media outlets, advertisements etc) I consume I at least understand how as a society we reached a place where gay marriage is legalized. But to these older Americans whose education did not have the same brainwashing and who consume media very different to myself; as they usually just listen to music from their era, watch older films and TV shows and avoid social media outlets on the internet. Well, to them, this type of radical social change where the government can make a law redefining the definition of marriage from a universal and timeless family formation between a man and a woman to now include homosexual couples must be very frustrating for them as they try to make sense of how this could happen in the America they've lived in for 80 plus years.

I have an uncle who is exactly that Clint Eastwood gif.

I count myself lucky because my entire core group of friends is extremely "redpill", although with the debacle on reddit I'd almost refer to it as a traditionalist or masculinist point of view (or Roosh's neomasculinist). I probably unconsciously selected them for that. To be honest, I think a lot of it is picking your battles, and knowing when to just say silent (you gotta bite your tongue a lot in the corporate realm), but most of all you must identify people who will be friendly. One of the consequences of these victories of the progressive ideology is that it is starting to drastically polarize people who think differently.

Almost everyone has some gut feeling that something is very, very wrong, but a few will put words to it. Topics that I've found to be good entry points are the behavior of women, the pussification of men, gun rights, and younger couples not having kids. Being techno-pessimistic is another issue that will help you separate people who already feel this way. Someone who thinks that issues will be resolved through technological means will need a lot more work than someone who feels technology is creating the issues in the first place. ("Salvation through high technology" is an unspoken blue pill commandment, since, according to the popular narrative, technology is a byproduct of our liberal progressive worldview and not achievable without it. Nerds are very blue pill by nature.)

I've found that there are almost no real life consequences for calling things as they are if you have real life friends around you to back you up. I had a very loud conversation today in a public place with one of my friends about how we've become "a nation of faggots" and "democracy is dead" and how "all the liberal suburban fag hags will be celebrating with their gay bffs". I had a few glances but no reaction from the people that obviously could overhear.

Saying this shit on facebook would make me a persona non grata and unemployable for the indefinite future. I have had zero problems saying it in real life. In fact, I've probably been dialing it up a notch just because no one seems to give a fuck. I've actually found more people agreeing with me or at least questioning the mainstream narrative, and no one has the balls to say anything to my face. The internet lynch mob just doesn't exist outside the sad, cat-infested dungeons in which they dwell.

Oh, and you will make an old man's day if they hear some real talk from a young buck again. Old men have told me that I give them hope for the future. Imagine that, they see this society and they have no hope for the future. Mind you, I don't have any hope for it's future either, but the fact that a younger man sees similar problems is enough to spark that hope in them.

Getting a crew of likeminded men is key to dealing with the bullshit. I also don't have a social media presence at all, outside of snapchat, so there's absolutely nothing for an HR drone to latch onto that would make me unemployable. If someone doesn't like what I have to say, they have to tell me to my face.

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - blacknwhitespade - 06-26-2015

Quote: (06-26-2015 10:14 PM)speakeasy Wrote:

Quote: (06-26-2015 09:59 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:

OK so now we have gay marriage. What will the left try to pull out as the next social cause du jour?

I'm more curious how non friendly churches will handle this and how the feds plan on enforcing it. Can a pastor say no to this?

Not to mention, what can we expect as the next big social "crisis"? Things such as polygamy and pederasty are giant steps away from gay marriage.

The next step will be a sweeping left-wing McCarthyism. "Bigot" is the new "pinko". They won the culture war, now they roam the countryside shooting any survivors they can find. I suspect the Mormon and Catholic churches is where they'll focus their next attack.

One thing I think we need to discuss as non-brainwashed men is how do we find our place in society? How do we react to people who are more and more hostile in their political correctness? In real life, I just try to avoid even talking about gay issues, because virtually everyone my age or younger is extremely pro gay to the point that not sharing their enthusiasm would make you suspect. I really try to avoid situations where I'll be put on the spot and have to talk about what I truly feel on these issues like feminism, gay marriage, etc. I'm not religious, so I can't take any refuge in the churches or mosques to be around people who aren't hostile toward my world views. Do I just resign myself to further isolation?

I'm wondering this myself a lot today. Even inside of churches, many of my Christian (i'm protestant/non-denom) friends have jumped on the LGBT bandwagon. However, a majority of religious people still oppose this and were sounding more defiant than ever on my FB feed today. If you're of a religious persuasion, definitely cling closer to your church and surround yourself with like-minded people. I'm going to have to put my kids in a Christian school, or homeschool, Public schools are no longer an option with all the left-wing propaganda they spew about homosexuality and other regressive stuff. As much as Protestant/evangelical, Catholic, and Orthodox Christian churches are in shambles and suffering from the creep of liberalism, I still believe they can be the best preventative medicine to the ills of today's world.

If you're not of a religious persuasion, well, there are forums like this one, haha! Religious or secular, I think we should all band together more against what is happening here. Seek out friends, however possible, and surround yourself with like-minded people. Maybe relocate to another city, or another country. Whatever it takes.

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - ~wrIghter~ - 06-26-2015

Quote: (06-26-2015 10:48 AM)kaotic Wrote:

Honestly I'm over this shit, I knew it was coming with the political climate we have. Let them be miserable "marriages" like everyone else and get divorce raped.

I don't give a fuck about who you love.

This 100%. Were going to continue to pursue desirable women as a lot of the undesirables take themselves off the market. Two girls I used to work with got married in New York. The funny thing is that I tried talking to one of the girls before she went butch.

At the end of the day, its just another thing to talk about.

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - Dusty - 06-26-2015

Quote: (06-26-2015 07:28 PM)Roosh Wrote:

I'm disappointed at the number of men in this thread who cannot see more than a few months in the future at how such a ruling will effect society and ultimately, the way of life they currently enjoy---how this is but a beginning of getting the camel's full body in the tent and pushing for more policies that will marginalize their lifestyles in a short amount of time (i.e. within 10 years). But that's okay, because many of us here do understand what this ruling means, what the attack on the Confederate flag means, etc., and we will continue sounding the alarm. We will now begin to scratch the depths of degeneracy that no civilization has explored before. Many dark years await us.

"We firmly believe that for a number of issues, including ...women's rights... ,there are not two sides."

We are being marginalized at an alarming pace. This government/media/academia/corporate nexus is saying any opposition to any of their issues, including feminism, is no longer going to be tolerated.

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - rpg - 06-26-2015

As soon as the supreme court decision hit, two guys here ran to the courthouse to get married. The judge waived the mandatory waiting period before marriage. This is exactly the reason why a waiting period was in place. Both guys looked about 19, wearing dirty tshirts and probably broke asses. Good luck.

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - Hannibal - 06-27-2015

We have a population of roughly 314 million people in America. I'm going to make the assumption here that kids can't identify as gay or straight, so we'll whittle that number down to 238.5 million adults. I'm sure that will hurt a few butts.

Out of those 238.5 million adults, there are an estimated 9 million members of LGBT. That right that is 3% of the population, and that's even counting the transgenders and the bisexuals (who could feasibly marry outside of their own gender). But wait, there's more. Out of those 9 million, who could you make the argument of same sex couples that want to marry? If you look at regular American society, you can see that the trend for marriage generally involves living together with your significant other for some time. If you've been living with the same girl or guy for a couple years, you're basically married. That, in fact, is known as common law marriage.

To relate this back to our math problem, out of all those LGBT affiliates, there are 646,464 same sex couples who live in the same household. That's a grand total of 0.542% of the population where same sex marriage could be an outcome.

We live in a world where 1 in 26 adults identify as LGBT. Out of that figure, 7.2% are same sex couples who could feasibly be considering marriage. That's 1 in 361 adults. Tell me again why regular, voting age Americans should give a shit. Why do so many people care? It has to be some larger, more powerful entity pushing this shit through the government to further destroy the family unit. It's definitely not the gays running a grassroots campaign and winning over the hearts and minds of the American public, there simply aren't enough of them to matter. I know 3, maybe 4 gay dudes and none of them are getting married any time soon (shit, I only know a couple straight couples who are considering marriage). 20 years ago, gay marriage was a punchline and now it's the law of the fucking land?

I hate everyone on my facebook who's patting themselves on the back for this shit. It's the most pointless feel good event next to Find Dancing Man.

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - speakeasy - 06-27-2015

Just read a 4 part piece on the case for natural marriage. He argues that the traditional side lost the debate here because they really don't know how to argue effectively on this topic. They totally allowed the left to frame the debate for the last 10 years, and now we are where we are as we continue to descend down the slippery slope.

https://stream.org/defend-marriage-reality-part-1/

Part 1:

Quote:Quote:

In the spring of 2011, much of the world watched and listened as Kate Middleton and Prince William repeated their wedding vows in Westminster Abbey. They committed to love and honor one another for life. But if you travelled deep into the forests of Papua New Guinea, you would find people doing much the same thing with a little less pomp and a lot less television coverage.

Christians have always treated marriage as sacred; but marriage isn’t unique to Christianity. Every known culture has it, with a few differences here and there. Some cultures have allowed polygamy, for instance, and some have arranged marriages. Though romantic love is often part of the story as far back as Jacob and Rachel, the idea of marrying primarily for love is a more recent invention. But there is a constant, underlying theme: marriage as a norm is a public joining of a man and a woman, with a special connection to the bearing and raising of children.

The sun has risen and set on cities, cultures, and kingdoms for thousands of years, and yet marriage as the union of male and female has endured. Now every American state is embroiled in a debate about what marriage is, and the Supreme Court is poised to overturn by a judicial fiat voter-endorsed state laws recognizing natural marriage. What most of the human race took for granted, judges and legislators now think they can uproot. Ours is one battle in a global war on marriage throughout the “civilized” world.

At the moment, the skirmishes involve religious freedom: should Christian bakers and florists be forced to participate in same-sex “marriage”? These are important fights to win, but they are rear-guard actions — last defenses before wholesale surrender of marriage as a public institution.

It’s past time for a massive counter-offensive, and it will have to start at the grassroots. With some notable exceptions, the courts, academia, the media and big business have thrown their weight against marriage. The Lord has promised us that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church. We have no guarantee for the United States of America, or Western Civilization.

If we don’t work together to reverse the destruction of marriage, and soon, we could witness its collapse as a public institution in this generation. But first, we need to understand what’s happening, and why, so that we can know what we must do. That’s the purpose of this series.

The problem did not start with “same-sex marriage.” An epidemic of divorce, aided and abetted by the sexual revolution and a “contraceptive mentality,” began weakening the institution of marriage decades ago. In the 60s and 70s, states enacted “no fault” divorce laws. When the law had once made divorce difficult, it now made it easy, because scholars claimed that people remaining in unhappy marriages was a much bigger problem than broken marriages. They were tragically wrong.

Marriage is now even less binding than a business contract. As marriage expert Maggie Gallagher has written, “Marriage is one of the few contracts in which the law explicitly protects the defaulting party at the expense of his or her partner.”

Along with changing laws has come a changed culture where divorce carries little stigma. Acceptance of divorce rose from 59% of Americans in 2001 to 68% in 2013. This naturally follows from the rise in the number of people who have been divorced. The divorce rate for first marriages — between forty and fifty percent — is about twice what it was in 1960. About 2/3rds of second marriages, and 3/4ths of third marriages, end in divorce. This trend is even more startling when you realize that divorce rates have gone up while marriage rates have gone down.

Sixty percent of Americans in first marriages now live together beforehand. “Co-habiting” is considered a good trial run that will prevent a divorce later, but statistics show that people who shack up before getting married are much more likely to divorce than those who keep two addresses until their wedding day.

This change in divorce law came in the wake of relentless assaults on marriage and chastity from such academics as “sex researcher” Alfred Kinsey and anthropologist Margaret Mead. They misled millions to believe that homosexuality and promiscuity were normal and healthy. Marriage was artificial and repressive. Later we learned that their work was deeply flawed, even fraudulent, but the damage was already done.

If bogus sex research and birth control pills were dry twigs and tinder, no-fault divorce and abortion-on-demand were the blowtorch and gasoline. Together, they created a raging bonfire. We have now been stoking its flames for decades, long before talk of same-sex “marriage.” Together, they have reduced the bond connecting marriage, sex and childbearing to ashes.

If we want to understand the current war on marriage, we can’t ignore this ugly backstory.

Part 2:

Quote:Quote:

Two recent books, one by libertarian Charles Murray, the other by progressive Robert Putnam, tell much the same story: upper income Americans are more likely to enjoy a traditional marriage culture where men and women marry, stay married and wait until marriage to have children. For lower-income Americans, in contrast, co-habitation, childbirth without marriage and absentee fathers are quickly becoming the norms rather than the exceptions.

The marriage track involves a virtuous circle. If you graduate from high school and college, get married and then have children, neither you nor your children are likely to live in poverty. And your kids are likely to follow in your footsteps. In contrast, if you don’t graduate from high school or college, hook up and have babies out of wedlock, you’re likely to be poor and to stay poor. And your kids are likely to follow in your footsteps. In short, the poorer among us have suffered disproportionately from the decline in marriage, and the decline in marriage helps keep poorer Americans poor.

That’s why marriage and the family aren’t just a Christian thing. Marriage is a human thing. It may be personal, but it is not private. Like a rock dropped in a pond, assaults on marriage create ripples that work their way across the entire surface of civilization. The difference is that the pond ripples disappear; the cultural repercussions do not.

The collapse of marriage and the epidemic of divorce since the 1960s have given social scientists decades of data to study, and the results are in: marriage is good for us and divorce is not.

Men and women in their first marriages tend to be healthier and happier than their counterparts in every other type of relationship — single, widowed or divorced. They’re also less depressed and anxious, and less likely to abuse drugs and alcohol. “Seventy percent of chronic problem drinkers are divorced or separated, and only 15 percent are married,” note Glenn Stanton and Bill Maier.

Married adults are, on average, more sexually fulfilled. They’re also, on average, better parents, better workers and are less likely to be perpetrators or victims of domestic violence.

Let’s be honest. Most men, left to their own fallen instincts, would be promiscuous. Their sexual energies need to be properly channeled so that they think and act for long-term goals rather than fleeting, short-term pleasure. George Gilder argued in the 1970s and ’80s that the channeling of male sexual activity is one of the most important functions of marriage. It’s crucial for civilization because it helps civilize men. Other scholars have confirmed Gilder’s point, by showing a link between the state of marriage and the historical rise and fall of civilizations.

Social scientists have concluded that married men are less likely to commit crime and more likely to hold down jobs. You don’t need a Ph.D. in sociology to see that unattached single men wandering the streets are more inclined to trouble than the same men attached to wives and children.

Single people can, of course, live fulfilling lives. The Apostle Paul commends the single life as a wonderful gift for those who are called to it (1 Corinthians 7:7-8). I have friends — not just Catholic priests and nuns but evangelical lay men and women — who are called to the single life. It’s easy, perhaps too easy, for us married folks to forget that singleness has its own dignity. And for some vocations, it’s arguably better to be single than to be married.

Those of us called to marriage, however, tend to be much better off if we are married rather than divorced. Marriage scholars Linda Waite and Maggie Gallagher sum up the results of thousands of scientific studies: “A good marriage is both men’s and women’s best bet for living a long and healthy life.”

They’re speaking statistically, of course. Any institution can be distorted and even destroyed by human sin, and stout souls can sometimes overcome even the worst circumstances, including abuse and abandonment. Still, all things being equal, marriage is good for us.

Of course, all this data involves marriage as everyone understood it until week before last: between a man and a woman. If you’ve been reading the paper or the Internet recently, however, you might be thinking: if marriage is such a good thing, why would we want to deprive same-sex attracted men and women of it? Why wouldn’t we want men to be able to marry men and women marry women, if they love each other? What’s the problem?

To answer that, we have to first answer a prior question: What exactly is marriage? That’s the subject of the next part of this series.

Part 3:

Quote:Quote:

Too many Christians and conservatives are either surrendering or retreating from the public argument over marriage. But we have hardly begun to fight! Precious few of us know how to make the case. We get impatient when it comes to learning multi-step arguments. Instead we may paraphrase a Bible verse or two, start every sentence with, “As a Christian I believe …” or crack a joke, “God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.”

This is no way to defend marriage reality. Not only does it not convince fence-sitters. It confirms the accusation of gay activists that we want to impose sectarian ideas on society. We can, and should, do better. We need to be ready and able to mount thoughtful, public arguments in defense of marriage, arguments that will resonate with reasonable people regardless of whether they recognize the Bible as authoritative.

And it can’t be just a few of us doing it. There are too many minds to change. If marriage is a public good and a public reality, then all of us, not just a few public intellectuals, must mount solid, public arguments in its defense. If we can’t take the time and effort to properly articulate such an argument, why should we expect our post-Christian culture to learn and embrace our position?

Our situation is much like 1973 after Roe v. Wade was handed down. Many Christians were either tongue-tied or confused on the question of abortion, and many mainline (and dying) denominations came out strongly in favor of legal abortion. But within a few years, faithful Christians and fellow travelers shook off their brain-fog, gathered their strength and launched a counter-offensive. The culture of death has not yet been defeated, but we have made inroads and know how to frame the debate. The same must happen with marriage, and the sooner the better. We have to think. Only when we understand and can frame the debate properly can we hope to retake lost territory.

We can start by getting three things straight.
1. Keep Separate Issues Separate

Don’t conflate separate questions. The debate over marriage is not about the origin of same-sex attraction. It’s not about what consenting adults should be allowed to do in private. It’s not about “homophobia.” It’s not about what you “believe as a Christian.” It’s not even about the immorality of homosexual acts, a related issue that Robert Reilly tackles in an important recent book.

It’s not about restricting certain kinds of marriage. It is always and everywhere about the nature of marriage and its role as a public institution: Is marriage a thing, and if so, what is it?
2. Recognize that Marriage is a Comprehensive Union

Strip away the diversity of cultural traditions — giving dowries, exchanging rings and vows in a church, throwing parties and bouquets — and what remains? What is marriage? Amidst the diversity across cultures, what is striking are the common features, recognized even in ancient cultures that were broadly accepting of homosexual practice. In an article and a later book, Sherif Girgis, Robert George and Ryan Anderson ably boiled down the basic ingredients of marriage:

Marriage involves: first, a comprehensive union of spouses [husbands and wives]; second, a special link to children; and third, norms of permanence, monogamy and exclusivity.

Notice the word “norm” — ideal. The norm is the same even if some marriages fail to fully achieve it. A proper end of the marital act is children, even if a child doesn’t result from every conjugal act, just as a proper end of playing football — to take a trivial example — is to score touchdowns, even if in some football games, nobody scores a touchdown.

Cultures have varied on the permanence of marriage. Cultures also have varied in their openness to polygamy, but even in polygamous societies, the marriages have not involved several men married to several women, all of them mixing and matching in various and shifting male-female pairings. The women in a normal polygamous marriage are all married to one man, and the norm of the one man/one woman conjugal union is typically preserved even in these cases.

We have good historical and religious reasons to legally enshrine monogamy over against polygamy, of course. (Even pagan Rome recognized this.) The point here is that even in polygamous societies, there remained the ideal and the norm of the conjugal pairing of man/woman.

The word “marriage” refers to a relationship different from all others. We relate to our co-workers because of our jobs. We relate to our neighbors because of where we live. We relate to our friends because we have common interests. In marriage, a husband and wife unite comprehensively, with their whole beings. We are spiritual and bodily beings. Any union that is comprehensive — all-encompassing — must include a union of bodies. But bodies can come together in all sorts of ways — dancing, shaking hands, wrestling, playing football and cramming into a crowded subway car. The connection of bodies that is a true marital union will fulfill a vital purpose that could not be fulfilled otherwise.

Think of the biology involved. Each of our organs has a biological purpose. The purpose of the heart is to pump blood, of eyes, to see, of lungs, to draw in air and capture oxygen to supply the body. All of these organs also have a common purpose: they work together to allow our body to live and thrive. Moreover, these organs are complete: they don’t need another human being to fulfill their function.

Each of us, however, has one biological function that by ourselves we cannot complete: sexual reproduction. In women, this includes both the sexual organs and the lactation systems in breasts. (The lactation system requires another human being, a baby, to fulfill its proper end.) Marriage is the institution that frames this natural reality. It intrinsically involves a man and a woman, and is intrinsically related to the bearing of children. That purpose can only be fulfilled by a specific kind of union with another human being of the opposite sex.

Male and female are “made to fit,” and until recently, probably no one anywhere thought to deny this. To reproduce naturally, to produce a new human being, a male and female must unite their bodies in the sexual act. In this one way, we are naturally incomplete as individuals and organisms. “Marriage,” as one scholar has written, “proposes a reconciliation of the most fundamental natural difference among human beings — sex.”

Of course, we’re not merely physical bodies. Our minds, emotions and souls work in harmony with our sexuality. Sex within marriage is a good thing in itself, even when conception doesn’t result, but the act still naturally tends toward reproduction — toward children. It has the awesome power to produce new human beings. To pretend otherwise, to isolate sex from childbearing, is to court disaster.

The sex act (rather than conception or childbirth) is the consummation — the seal — of marriage. Marriage protects, reflects and reinforces this powerful, complementary, reproductive part of our natures. No relationship between two men or two women can qualify as marriage because this conjugal act is impossible for them.

An infertile man and woman can still marry, since, as the National Review editors wrote in 2010, it is “mating that gives marriage its orientation toward children. An infertile couple can mate even if they cannot procreate. Two men or two women literally cannot mate.” As the editors went on to explain: “A child fulfills the marital relationship by revealing what” that marital relationship is, “a complete union, including a biological union.”

Same-sex unions can’t bring together complementary organs and body systems that are designed to procreate.

Marriage, then, is a comprehensive union of body, mind, emotion and soul, a proper end of which is children. This is why the state and society as a whole have a stake in recognizing it, and setting it off from every other institution.
3. Don’t Abandon Complementarity

Men and women, certainly in our bodies but also in other, less tangible ways, complement each other. One reason Christians may have been slow to make this argument is that many Christian denominations, under the influence of feminism, have abandoned the idea of complementarity, and now treat the idea of innate, God-given differences between men and women with suspicion. This is a fatal mistake. Those Christian bodies that fail to defend male-female complementarity in the next few decades will meet the same fate as those denominations that threw in their lot with Planned Parenthood. They will be assimilated, cease to be meaningfully Christian, and decline. The counteroffensive will fall to those Christian bodies that have resisted the cultural currents.

In short, given the nature of marriage, it doesn’t make any sense to refer to a relationship between individuals of the same sex, no matter how intimate, as “marriage.” The right response to talk about men “marrying” each other is: “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

Part 4:

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In my previous installment, I showed that marriage has been understood across cultures and centuries to refer to a comprehensive bodily union grounded in the complementary nature of man and woman, a proper end of which is children. And I argued that, because of this, it doesn’t make sense to call a relationship a “marriage” when it’s between people of the same sex, no matter how intimate.

Okay, but what’s the problem with redefining marriage to include other kinds of relationships? The meaning of words shift all the time, right? Why would natural marriages be harmed by extending the word to include same-sex unions? Does it affect your marriage in Texas or North Carolina for two men to “marry” in California or New York?

This line of reasoning might once have been plausible, but not anymore.

Given the weekly assaults on freedom of speech and religion surrounding same-sex “marriage,” the costs of redefining marriage, and enshrining that redefinition by legal fiat, should now be clear. This is like asking, after the currency starts to collapse, if the value of a real dollar in Texas would be affected by flooding the market with counterfeit dollars in New York. Yes, it would be affected, because counterfeits degrade the value of all real dollars in the economy. As economists say, bad money chases out good money.

Enshrining a false definition of marriage in our laws will inevitably harm all marriages and society, quite apart from the obvious assaults on religious liberty we are already witnessing. Same sex “marriage” does not expand the meaning of marriage, but replaces its historical and natural meaning with a counterfeit. To enshrine that counterfeit definition in our laws is to enshrine, and hence enforce, a collective lie and delusion. It is to require that we equate things that most manifestly are not equal.

Just a few examples: If the law says people of the same sex can “marry” each other, we lose any rational basis for barring group marriage and incest, and for encouraging marriage to be exclusive and permanent. The reason for limiting marriage to one man and one woman is that it takes exactly one man and one woman to make a sexually/biologically complete pair. That logic of completion evaporates if people of the same sex can “marry.” The arguments used to defend same-sex “marriage” work just as well for defending any voluntary relationship imaginable.
Logic, Not Slippery Slope

This isn’t a slippery slope fallacy because some slopes really are slippery, and this is one of them. The jump from same-sex marriage to polygamy, group marriage and open marriage is already happening. Most same-sex “marriages” that have been performed in U.S. states are not monogamous for long. And in those places that recognize same-sex “marriage,” few gays even bother to “marry.”

“Monogamous marriage,” say Glenn Stanton and Bill Maier, “is democracy for the domestic and sexual lives for men and women.” Polygamous cultures (which are almost always polygynous — one husband with more than one wife) are much more competitive and unstable. Where monogamy is the norm, a man — no matter how powerful, rich, or attractive — can have, at most, one wife. With polygamy, he’s free to “collect” as many wives as he can, leaving the less powerful men without prospects.

History tells us what happens to cultures with large numbers of men lacking marital prospects. Typically the men turn to prostitution and are more likely to prey on the society that has not made a place for them. Polygamy also lowers the status of women, especially of the wives who must compete for the same man’s affection. So rather than balancing the sexual competitiveness of men and women, polygamy makes the problem much worse. This is a Pandora’s Box that needs to stay shut. Redefining marriage to include same-sex unions opens that box, both by inviting further redefinitions of marriage, and by dispensing with the logic of marriage as a man-woman sexual/biological completion.
A War on Religious Liberty

Redefining marriage is already fomenting culture wars in every town, city and school district in the country, and precipitating draconian attacks on religious freedom. Not even seventy-year-old florists in Washington and family pizza restaurants in tiny Indiana towns are safe from assault. What was once prohibited is first tolerated, then celebrated and then compulsory. If same-sex “marriage” is defined as a basic human right, a matter of justice and equality — as its advocates claim — then no one will be free to publicly defend real marriage for long. Government will have to treat traditional views as irrational bigotry.

Parents who complain about their kids being forced to read Heather Has Two Mommies will be viewed like racist white parents who don’t want their children to attend school with black children. Everyone who holds the view of marriage heretofore held in every culture will be opposed by this new culture. Ministries will be forced to resist and suffer the consequences, revise their principles or close up shop. Catholic Charities has already abandoned its adoption services in California, Massachusetts and the District of Columbia to avoid being forced to place children with same-sex couples.

The media already describes those of us who defend natural marriage as anti-gay. What do you think will happen to those who actually criticize homosexual conduct? How long will it take to become illegal? It’s already happened in Canada. Just months after marriage was redefined there, a bill that criminalized such statements became law. “Anti-gay” speech crimes can now be punished by up to two years in jail! In 2008, the Alberta Human Rights Tribunal ordered Rev. Stephen Boisson to pay a $5,000 fine and apologize for a letter to the editor he wrote in 2002, before marriage was redefined. A higher court eventually overturned the ruling, but the incident is a foretaste of the future if defenders of real marriage don’t stem the tide.
Collapse

If we allow government, business and elite culture to redefine marriage, we should expect to see marriage further erode as a public institution. Several European countries that have redefined marriage show what may come. Laws have permitted same-sex “marriage” in the Netherlands since 2001, and rather than a marriage paradise, with straight and gay couples typically living in long-term, monogamous bliss, fewer and fewer Dutch bother to get married at all. Children are no longer connected to marriage. People just live together, and many have a hard time figuring out why marriage is even relevant.

Many well-meaning people think the same-sex “marriage” push is just about equality and spreading the benefits of marriage. This is staggeringly naïve. Its more radical supporters know it’s about destroying marriage itself. Here’s what one activist, Michael Signorile, said in Out magazine back in 1996:

The trick is, gay leaders and pundits must stop watering the issue down — “this is simply about equality for gay couples” — and offer same-sex marriage for what it is: an opportunity to reconstruct a traditionally homophobic institution by bringing it to our more equitable queer value system, … a chance to wholly transform the definition of family in American culture. … Our gay leaders must acknowledge that gay marriage is just as radical and transformative as the religious Right contends it is.

And it won’t end there. It took our society about six seconds to move from denying that marriage is grounded in the natural complementarity of male and female, to denying that human beings are born male or female. Indeed, the transgender movement is now moving in parallel with the same-sex “marriage” movement, and will soon overtake it.

Is anyone really so clueless as to believe that when a society denies human nature in its laws, there won’t be painful repercussions?

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - Cattle Rustler - 06-27-2015

Time to head back to law school and cash out as a "Gay Divorce Lawyer". Those guys are going to make a killin'!

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - wi30 - 06-27-2015

Quote: (06-26-2015 11:48 AM)dads Wrote:

If you post on this forum and you're considering bringing a child into this world, just know that you are pretty fucking selfish, and are a true villain (in the Klosterman definition of the word).

Off topic, but I couldn't let this comment slide. This isn't an MGTOW site dads, ironic as your handle may be.

So what are the normal guys on this site who aren't busy globetrotting and banging dozens of 9's in the Philippines every winter supposed to do? Believe it or not, some guys eventually want to settle down and have children. But apparently anyone who does that is an asshole who only cares of themselves.

Your attitude is shitty and self-defeating. I for one love the U.S regardless of all its recent downfalls. Instead of sticking my head in the sand and telling everyone to give up, I'm going to have kids someday and raise them right. We all have ancestors who fought to the death for their beliefs, they didn't talk down to others on the internet. Dads, you can choose to keep preaching from your golden keyboard, but I'm going to choose to be part of the men who sack up and fight tooth and nail for an ideology they believe in.

As Gandhi said, be the change you want to see in the world. Feel free to choose your path, but my path will consist of red-pill sons and virtuous daughters.

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - KorbenDallas - 06-27-2015

I plan on having five kids.

I'll die happy.

I have a job where I go in, get out, and I have zero chance of getting fired because I'm competent. Decent pay, blue collar job, and I hustle on the side.

Off work, I say exactly how I feel. It makes my entire life a Seinfeld episode though. The other day I had an entire sports bar up in arms. Half on my side saying Bruce is still a man, and the waitresses and a lesbian couple and the other half of the bar on the other side. I didn't back down though lol. Haven't gone back, but my buddy loves it. Shit gets real when I'm around.

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - dog - 06-27-2015

Quote: (06-27-2015 12:57 AM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:

Time to head back to law school and cash out as a "Gay Divorce Lawyer". Those guys are going to make a killin'!

All divorce lawyers are going to be making killings.

One of my buddies was talking about how fucked up it was that they were making marriage universal. He's been avoiding marriage for a long time and has a live-in girlfriend. His solution, to satisfy her whining and get the most bang for the buck from his corporate benefits, was a civil union. The problem is, gay marriage basically fucked up the "civil union" market.

Now companies have no "ethical" incentives to apply the standard corporate healthcare/dental/life-insurance benefits that marriages receive to civil unions if gays can be married. It's marriage or bust if you want in on the good bennies, and now there is no excuse not to be married.

So "civil unions" are basically dead. They are a relic after this decision. Because (and this is literally literally the Supreme Court's logic) now we know that all love is marriage and all marriages are recognized by all states and the fundamental reason is feelings and so say we all. The lawyers have got to be chomping at the bit. Imagine if Canada's cohabitation law starts to peek its ugly head into this shitstorm. It's a legal nightmare.

Lawyers make money by being embroiled in legal battles. This is going to create many, many legal battles.

Who gets alimony in states where women get alimony? Who's the top and who's the bottom? And what if they are lesbians? Is it whoever gets beaten the most or whoever gets horny more than once a year?

The fag community has opened up their buttocks to be pozzed by the "legal community".

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - lurker - 06-27-2015

Unbunch your collective panties. The purpose of the Constitution (at least, the majority of the Amendments) is to prevent the collective will of the people (often referred to as the 'tyranny of the majority') from passing laws that infringe individual rights.

Almost fifty years ago, the Court decided a nearly identical case, except the couple was interracial instead of gay. That case was decided on the exact same grounds seen here - that both substantive due process and equal protection under the Fourteenth Amendment prohibit the state from interfering in this aspect of its citizens' private lives. If you bothered to read and understand today's decision, you'll note that earlier case is comprehensively relied on throughout the opinion. Western Civilization didn't end then, and it won't now.

Make no mistake. This is a victory for individual liberty against the autocracy of the state. As amusing as it is to see half of you lose your shit simply because that freedom inures to a faction you perceive to be antagonistic to yourselves in a culture war, and clamor to diminish the due process rights of others while publicly bemoaning encroachments on your own, you're willfully ignoring that this is a recitation of basic protections you hold for granted.

In a year from now, you will have forgotten your outrage. The distinct minority of Americans who are gay will go about their lives, some married. Your lives will continue unchanged, except for the handful of you that are closet cases and finally come to grips with your own wants. The tempest will have died in the teacup.

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - dog - 06-27-2015

Quote: (06-27-2015 01:30 AM)lurker Wrote:

Unbunch your collective panties. The purpose of the Constitution (at least, the majority of the Amendments) is to prevent the collective will of the people (often referred to as the 'tyranny of the majority') from passing laws that infringe individual rights.

Almost fifty years ago, the Court decided a nearly identical case, except the couple was interracial instead of gay. That case was decided on the exact same grounds seen here - that both substantive due process and equal protection under the Fourteenth Amendment prohibit the state from interfering in this aspect of its citizens' private lives. If you bothered to read and understand today's decision, you'll note that earlier case is comprehensively relied on throughout the opinion. Western Civilization didn't end then, and it won't now.

Make no mistake. This is a victory for individual liberty against the autocracy of the state. As amusing as it is to see half of you lose your shit simply because that freedom inures to a faction you perceive to be antagonistic to yourselves in a culture war, and clamor to diminish the due process rights of others while publicly bemoaning encroachments on your own, you're willfully ignoring that this is a recitation of basic protections you hold for granted.

In a year from now, you will have forgotten your outrage. The distinct minority of Americans who are gay will go about their lives, some married. Your lives will continue unchanged, except for the handful of you that are closet cases and finally come to grips with your own wants. The tempest will have died in the teacup.

I honestly can't tell if you are trolling.

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - Disco_Volante - 06-27-2015

Excellent point about law firms basically doubling their divorce cases $$$$$

I really wish there was a way to invest in divorces, like some sort of deriviative financial product. I wouldve bet the house on divorce rates going up years ago. American women don't give 2 fucks about anything and there are plenty of thirsty suckers marrying them.

When you see womens behavior, gay marriage, and more regulation, it's fucking paradise for lawyers. Id buy stock in divorce lawyers if I could.

Law firms can be a 'one-stop shop' for your shitty American life now.
1. they get paid to make your pre-nup.
2. they get paid to defend you when your wife accuses you of domestic violence
3. they get paid to argue your now failed pre-nup
4. they get paid to argue for custody (even though she'll get full custody it doesn't matter to them)

and with gay marriage, the HIV transmission lawsuits will be even more $$$ for them. From what I understand, lesbians also have the highest rates of domestic violence so that's more cases for parasite lawyers too

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - Cattle Rustler - 06-27-2015

Quote: (06-27-2015 01:34 AM)Disco_Volante Wrote:

Excellent point about law firms basically doubling their divorce cases $$$$$

I really wish there was a way to invest in divorces, like some sort of deriviative financial product. I wouldve bet the house on divorce rates going up years ago. American women don't give 2 fucks about anything and there are plenty of thirsty suckers marrying them.

When you see womens behavior, gay marriage, and more regulation, it's fucking paradise for lawyers. Id buy stock in divorce lawyers if I could

You could, there are some law firms that finance divorces for those who can't pay out of pocket. This is mostly the case in cases where there's a big payout that will take a long time to secure, such as the case with wealthy people.

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - KorbenDallas - 06-27-2015

Lurker, What about the individual right to own slaves or the individual right to have a horse fuck you and call it marriage?

What a joke of an argument. Gays had no civil rights denied to them. They were/are free to marry a woman same as the rest of us.

Interacial marriage is completely different. Interacial couples produce Steph Curry, gays produce anal leakage.

I used to be anti-interacial couples to a small degree, but now I don't give a shit. Plenty of women to go around, and I prefer slavic girls anyway who White nationalists say are subhuman, so, whatever. It's also proven that mixed dogs are healthier than pure breds so I have no doubt its true in humans too. A little mixing is good, subjagation and conquering of a people is bad, but a little mixing never hurt nobody.

But gays, I support only insofar as I support peoples rights not to be harassed and killed for doing private acts in their own bedroom. But it's not marriage to get fucked in the ass by another guy and it never fucking will be no matter how many men in black robes who may or may not be closet pedos tell me it is.

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - speakeasy - 06-27-2015

Quote: (06-27-2015 01:30 AM)lurker Wrote:

Unbunch your collective panties. The purpose of the Constitution (at least, the majority of the Amendments) is to prevent the collective will of the people (often referred to as the 'tyranny of the majority') from passing laws that infringe individual rights.

It wasn't an infringement on individual rights. Gays had the same right to marry someone of the opposite sex as anyone else. What gays wanted was the definition of marriage expanded to something that no longer resembles its former self in order to make room for their preference. A preference which isn't based in natural order.

Quote:Quote:

Almost fifty years ago, the Court decided a nearly identical case, except the couple was interracial instead of gay.

An interracial couple can produce children. Two men cannot. Big difference. I'm tired of seeing gay and interracial couples compared. Homosexuality is a birth defect. Race is not.

Quote:Quote:

Western Civilization didn't end then, and it won't now.

Western civilization is on the decline. Just look at the fertility rates for starters. No coincidence that all the countries with same sex marriage don't reproduce at replacement level without the aid of mass immigration.

Quote:Quote:

Make no mistake. This is a victory for individual liberty against the autocracy of the state.

Yeah, defining marriage as man/woman is just tyranny. [Image: dodgy.gif]

Quote:Quote:

In a year from now, you will have forgotten your outrage. The distinct minority of Americans who are gay will go about their lives, some married. Your lives will continue unchanged, except for the handful of you that are closet cases and finally come to grips with your own wants. The tempest will have died in the teacup.

That's what you guys claim. Just make gay marriage legal and this debate will all go away and we'll return to our normal lives. This is only the beginning. Now expect the emboldened tyranny of LGBT witch hunts as they turn all dissenting opinions into "hate speech". What what happens to the public education system and the way they will force gay propaganda down the throats of children. Watch it shoved in our faces in advertising, movies. Watch the lawsuits against churches and bakeries. Watch how many people will lose their jobs because somebody googled something "homophobic" they said years ago. Mark my words. If I'm still on RVF in a few years. I'll gladly revisit this post and eat my words if this doesn't happen.

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - KorbenDallas - 06-27-2015

I saw a survey recently where 28% of a San Fransico high school identified as LGBQT+.

Also, in 2008 there were no trannies in high schools. Now my cousins tell me theres at least one in every school.

the LGBQUT+superqueers and supersuperqueer alliance, just keeps on pushing the boundaries...the right for government kommisars to fuck your kids is coming soon!

I want to be sarcastic about that last line, but I'm not sure anymore.

Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage in the United States - Phoenix - 06-27-2015

Quote: (06-27-2015 01:30 AM)lurker Wrote:

Unbunch your collective panties.
...
In a year from now, you will have forgotten your outrage... Your lives will continue unchanged, except for the handful of you that are closet cases and finally come to grips with your own wants. The tempest will have died in the teacup.

My warning level is too high to respond candidly to this troll.