How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - Printable Version
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How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - JayMillz - 03-28-2012
Quote: (03-28-2012 11:59 AM)assman Wrote:
From Zimmerman's 911 call, we know that Trayvon ran. Since Zimmerman already thought this guy was up to no good, seeing him run likely confirmed that assumption. So I'm guessing that Zimmerman followed Trayvon so he could point him out to the police - this is why Zimmerman tells the operator to have the police call him on his cell phone when they get there, as opposed to just meeting him by the entrance - if he did the latter, he figured they wouldn't find Trayvon.
That's your speculation. If he did, in fact, run maybe it was because he saw a grown man that weighed 100 lbs more than him starring at him. Who knows, maybe Z was waving or showed his gun. Maybe if you were an unarmed, light in the ass, teen you would have ran also.
We do know that T was talking to a female friend over the phone and told her that he was being followed. She told him to run. He didn't run. She heard some of the confrontation over the phone, in which Zimmerman asked T "who are you......what are you doing here?" Shortly after, she lost the call. At which time I assume the confrontation escalated and became physical. What happened at this point, no one knows and only has Zimmerman's side of the story. T is dead. Dead "suspects" can't talk.
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - Brian - 03-28-2012
Quote: (03-28-2012 01:26 PM)JayMillz Wrote:
Quote: (03-28-2012 11:59 AM)assman Wrote:
From Zimmerman's 911 call, we know that Trayvon ran. Since Zimmerman already thought this guy was up to no good, seeing him run likely confirmed that assumption. So I'm guessing that Zimmerman followed Trayvon so he could point him out to the police - this is why Zimmerman tells the operator to have the police call him on his cell phone when they get there, as opposed to just meeting him by the entrance - if he did the latter, he figured they wouldn't find Trayvon.
That's your speculation. If he did, in fact, run maybe it was because he saw a grown man that weighed 100 lbs more than him starring at him. Who knows, maybe Z was waving or showed his gun. Maybe if you were an unarmed, light in the ass, teen you would have ran also.
you're really grasping at straws here.
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - assman - 03-28-2012
Quote: (03-28-2012 01:26 PM)JayMillz Wrote:Yes, of course I'm guessing as to what Zimmerman was thinking. I'm not a mind reader. But given the circumstances, is it not reasonable?
Quote: (03-28-2012 11:59 AM)assman Wrote:
From Zimmerman's 911 call, we know that Trayvon ran. Since Zimmerman already thought this guy was up to no good, seeing him run likely confirmed that assumption. So I'm guessing that Zimmerman followed Trayvon so he could point him out to the police - this is why Zimmerman tells the operator to have the police call him on his cell phone when they get there, as opposed to just meeting him by the entrance - if he did the latter, he figured they wouldn't find Trayvon.
That's your speculation. If he did, in fact, run maybe it was because he saw a grown man that weighed 100 lbs more than him starring at him. Who knows, maybe Z was waving or showed his gun. Maybe if you were an unarmed, light in the ass, teen you would have ran also.
We do know that T was talking to a female friend over the phone and told her that he was being followed. She told him to run. He didn't run. She heard some of the confrontation over the phone, in which Zimmerman asked T "who are you......what are you doing here?" Shortly after, she lost the call. At which time I assume the confrontation escalated and became physical. What happened at this point, no one knows and only has Zimmerman's side of the story. T is dead. Dead "suspects" can't talk.
You're misunderstanding. I'm not saying that Trayvon running is proof that he was up to no good. I'm saying Trayvon running probably confirmed in Zimmerman's mind that the guy he already deemed suspicious, was indeed up to no good.
I can understand, from Trayvon's perspective, why he would run.
Have they released the timestamp of the girlfriend's call? Maybe it was after Zimmerman's 911 call, in which he said Trayvon had run off, and I don't recall Zimmerman mentioning Trayvon being on the phone. So could be later, after he caught up with Trayvon.
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - JayMillz - 03-28-2012
Quote: (03-28-2012 01:30 PM)Brian Wrote:
you're really grasping at straws here.
If you had an armed and angry man, that was much bigger than you, following you and you were unarmed and in an unfamiliar area, you might run also. I doubt that's a reach.
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - Brian - 03-28-2012
Quote: (03-28-2012 01:39 PM)JayMillz Wrote:
Quote: (03-28-2012 01:30 PM)Brian Wrote:
you're really grasping at straws here.
If you had an armed and angry man, that was much bigger than you, following you and you were unarmed and in an unfamiliar area, you might run also. I doubt that's a reach.
All of that is heresay. How would Trayvon know he was armed? Was he open carrying? Nope. Are you in a position to describe the mood of Zimmerman at the time of the encounter? Nope. And if he ran, at what point when he was running did he break his nose, mount him, and slam his head into the concrete?
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - JayMillz - 03-28-2012
Quote: (03-28-2012 01:58 PM)Brian Wrote:
Quote: (03-28-2012 01:39 PM)JayMillz Wrote:
Quote: (03-28-2012 01:30 PM)Brian Wrote:
you're really grasping at straws here.
If you had an armed and angry man, that was much bigger than you, following you and you were unarmed and in an unfamiliar area, you might run also. I doubt that's a reach.
All of that is heresay. How would Trayvon know he was armed? Was he open carrying? Nope. Are you in a position to describe the mood of Zimmerman at the time of the encounter? Nope.
Facts: Z was armed, was 100 lbs more, angry (listen to 911 cursing), followed T, T was from out of town, unarmed with Skittles
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - Blackhawk - 03-28-2012
T-mobile records show Trayvon made multiple cell phone calls during the event, one of which was to a girl whose identity is being protected because she's a minor. She has provided a sealed interview to the police, most details remaining unknown to the public. We do know she advised Trayvon to run from the area. Why she did so remains unknown. Having a resident recognize you trying to break in and reporting you to the police on cell phone would be one reason. (source)
For those unfamiliar with America, there used to be a large anti-crime campaign where police advised people to "leave a radio on" when leaving home to make it appear to burglars that someone was still home. Today, homes in high crime neighborhoods will have televisions blaring loudly 24 hours a day to dissuade potential break ins. One nurse I know has COPS playing on loop 24 hours a day in her condo. At max volume.
During sports events, burglars will case homes by walking around listening for "the big game" being played in people's homes, and assume those are the only ones with people in them. When I lived in a crappy neighborhood, multiple times I'd be listening to my ipod on headphones and suddenly have some teen trying to jimmy my back door and break in for a smash and grab because they didn't hear the sports event blaring from my place.
Trayvon's suddenly going out during the middle of an NBA basketball game on a Sunday afternoon to wander around would be consistent with this behavior.
Wikipedia puts Trayvon's height at 6'3" and Zimmerman's at 5' 9".
The police incident report states Zimmerman was wet on his back and it was covered with grass as is he had been lying on the ground, and had received injuries to the nose and back of head. This seems consistent with the report that Zimmerman was hit in the nose, pegged to the ground, and continued to be attacked. There were six witnesses to the scene also interviewed. Zimmerman's gun was a black Kel Tec PF-9 holstered inside his waistband. It's a very small pistol, roughly the size of a dollar bill.
Oh, and Spike Lee tweets the wrong address and runs an elderly couple out of their home. When William (not George) Zimmerman pleaded with the man who tweeted the address, the man responded, “Black power all day. No justice, no peace” along with an obscenity.
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - JayMillz - 03-28-2012
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - assman - 03-28-2012
Quote: (03-28-2012 02:09 PM)Blackhawk Wrote:The solution to this is a pump-action 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot. The last thing the perp breaking into your house should hear is the sound of the safety being clicked off. After word gets around, perps will look for easier marks.
For those unfamiliar with America, there used to be a large anti-crime campaign where police advised people to "leave a radio on" when leaving home to make it appear to burglars that someone was still home. Today, homes in high crime neighborhoods will have televisions blaring loudly 24 hours a day to dissuade potential break ins. One nurse I know has COPS playing on loop 24 hours a day in her condo. At max volume.
During sports events, burglars will case homes by walking around listening for "the big game" being played in people's homes, and assume those are the only ones with people in them. When I lived in a crappy neighborhood, multiple times I'd be listening to my ipod on headphones and suddenly have some teen trying to jimmy my back door and break in for a smash and grab because they didn't hear the sports event blaring from my place.
Remington 870 Express or Mossberg 500 are inexpensive and a lot more comfortable than leaving your tv on with the volume cranked up when you're at home but not wanting to watch it.
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - JayMillz - 03-28-2012
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - Screwston - 03-28-2012
Spike Lee needs to be slapped multiple times if he tweeted someone's address like that. I never liked that scrawny, bug looking guy.
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - Brian - 03-28-2012
Bobby Rush is a moron, in addition to being a former Black Panther.
One-minute gap
On Feb. 26, when Zimmerman first spotted Trayvon, he called police and reported a suspicious person, describing Trayvon as black, acting strangely and perhaps on drugs.
Zimmerman got out of his SUV to follow Trayvon on foot. When a dispatch employee asked Zimmerman if he was following the 17-year-old, Zimmerman said yes. The dispatcher told Zimmerman he did not need to do that.
There is about a one-minute gap during which police say they're not sure what happened.
Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.
Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police.
Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police.
Zimmerman began yelling for help.
Several witnesses heard those cries, and there has been a dispute about whether they came from Zimmerman or Trayvon.
Lawyers for Trayvon's family say it was Trayvon, but police say their evidence indicates it was Zimmerman.
One witness, who has since talked to local television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him — and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.
Zimmerman then shot Trayvon once in the chest at very close range, according to authorities.
When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.
Paramedics gave him first aid but he said he did not need to go to the hospital. He got medical care the next day.
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - assman - 03-28-2012
Not relevant to Martin case, but puts the uproar over this in perspective:
According to US Dept. of Justice, in 2005, black males accounted for 52% of male homicide victims. Obviously everyone here understands this is very disproportionate to blacks as % of the population. 93% of the time, the killer is black.
Seems to me that it would be a better use of the black community's leadership's time and energy to curtail black-on-black killing than to run around painting every white-on-black killing as racially motivated and part of a 'war on blacks'.
Wait - does this make me a racist?
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - Blackhawk - 03-28-2012
Quote: (03-27-2012 11:22 PM)jariel Wrote:
You mean the ones that wanted to arrest him that night?
The police report clearly shows Zimmerman was arrested. He was handcuffed, surrendered his gun, and was administered first aid for injuries on site. "After he was cleared by SFD, he was transported to Sanford Police Department. Zimmerman was placed in an interview room of Sanford Police Department, where he was interviewed by Investigator D. Singleton."
He was actually interviewed by two different investigators. (He should have watched "Never talk to the police" on youtube.)
Quote:Quote:
The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, multiple sources told ABC News.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-...3J1NdWQsz4
Actually, that's gobbledy gook. Police don't file charges. They file incident reports. The Special Prosecutors Office reads the reports and State Attorneys files charges. Not the police. Police didn't go to law school. Police aren't attorneys.
What happened is the Sanford Police Department filed an incident report. Their incident report categorized the event as "Homicide/Neglig Mansl --Unnecessary Killing to Prevent an Unlawful Act". The description appears to be chosen though a drop-down menu of limited choices and not very specific. The Sanford Police also did a crime scene investigation, interviewed multiple witnesses, did the usual crime scene unit processing, then filed an a capias request with the State Attorney.
“If you go with what was reported in the press the first night, there would have been an arrest right away, but obviously something gave investigators pause,” said a source in the Seminole State Attorney’s office who did not want to speak publicly, because the case is now assigned to a different prosecutor. “We get capias warrants all the time. That doesn’t mean we file charges right away. We investigate to see if it’s appropriate. That’s the responsible thing to do.’’
And when protestor mobs started being bussed in by Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton to get media attention, the Governor switched to yet another State Attorney to force the case and charge Zimmerman. But that new State Attorney read the same reports and came to the same conclusion.
To this day, no charges have been filed by any State Attorney. But you can also be sure with all the death threats and active mobs out to lynch him, Zimmerman will never have a normal life again. Wouldn't it be interesting if he in turn sued Jackson and Sharpton for misrepresentation and damages from inciting a mob?
Trayvon Martin's family can at any time hire an attorney to file civil charges against Zimmerman for monetary compensation. Without a successful state prosecution first, the chances of that succeeding are very, very slim, and Zimmerman does not appear to be, shall we say, a man with many assets. They would in effect be spending millions of dollars (which they don't have) to get pocket change and a couple of breath mints.
Much easier to get paid to cry for the cameras by Sharpton and Jackson, who are currently collecting millions in donations from well meaning people who see an injustice. They don't need to see Zimmerman prosecuted. They just need to fan the flames, manipulate the media, and collect the donation checks. At one early rally, the Rev. Al Sharpton asked people to make out checks to Fulton and put them in buckets that were passed around. Sharpton pledged $2,500 himself.
Al Sharpton is cashing in through http://nationalactionnetwork.net/
and Jesse Jackson through http://www.rainbowpush.org/
while others are leaping onto the gravy train of well meaning money falling from the sky:
https://www.wepay.com/donations/3819
http://parkscrump.com/justicetm/donations/
There's even some opportunistic donation monger selling Skittles.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/511/720/5...in-family/
Trayvon Martin's mother, Sybrina Fulton, has said she does not want want other people printing and selling memorabilia. "Sybrina Fulton has no desire to profit from her son's death, but wants to protect her son's name legacy," said family representative Ryan Julison. Sybrina Fulton headed off potential profit-seeking by others by filing trademark applications last week for the words "Justice For Trayvon" and "I Am Trayvon." (source) Her line of tshirts is selling for $18.99 each, available in all sizes up to XXL.
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - Beyond Borders - 03-28-2012
Quote: (03-28-2012 12:34 AM)jariel Wrote:
I'm pretty sure the Treyvon Martin/George Zimmerman issue falls on racial lines.
Blacks are on Martin's side. Whites are on George's side (even though George isn't white).
That's just the way it is.
That's bullshit and this case really doesn't need this type of hype. Most of the white people I know think Zimmerman was guilty as hell and some are even buying into the racism side of the story.
The line is divided between people who swallowed the media slant from the beginning and have already convicted the man and people who would rather hear some more facts before they let public opinion sway theirs.
Quote: (03-28-2012 11:35 AM)JayMillz Wrote:
Pictures of Trayvon on Facebook with his shirt off, pants hanging down, and donning gold teeth......pictures of him in his football uniform. Pictures of him with his father. Pictures of him with a little girl. George Oliver speaking up for Zimmerman. The media's sensationalizing/capitalizing on this story (which is nothing new). George Oliver being attacked on MSNBC (which can be biased since they tend to be Democratic), etc., etc. It's going too far.
Trayvon Martin should and probably would still be alive today if it weren't for one simple fact - that Zimmerman took it upon himself to follow Trayvon when he was told that he didn't need to.
Supposed Trayvon was the aggressor. After all, based on Zimmerman's story, Travyon punched him in the face as he was getting back into his car. Then started banging his head against the curb (or something like that). If that's the case, and if that's what actually happened, then Zimmerman most likely felt that his life was in danger and shot Trayvon. Okay. Cool.
But if Zimmerman would have never kept following Trayvon in the first place, then he would have never put himself in this type of situation. He sees Trayvon walking through his neighborhood. To him, Trayvon looks suspicious so he calls the police. Cool. During his call, he doesn't know what race Trayvon is so I can't call this a racist act on Zimmerman's part. At this time, he seems like a concerned resident. Cool. As he gets a better look at Trayvon, he's able to see that he is AA and gives a description of what he is wearing. Ok, cool. Now the police tells him that he does not need to follow Trayvon............and that should've been the end of it. He did is duty as a neighborhood watch person (which was self-appointed, never officially appointed to him by the neighborhood). He saw someone whom he deemed was suspiscious, he called the police, he gave a description. That's all he needed and should have done.
So my question is and will contine to be why Zimmerman felt the need to follow Trayvon? Was Trayvon exhibiting behavior that would cause him to think that he was there to break into one of the homes in the neighborhood? What was he doing? Why did Zimmerman follow him?
If Trayvon was up to no good, and was there to break into someone's home, then the police would've caught him. If Trayvon was simply walking back to his father's house minding his business, then the police most likely would've stopped and questioned him because he looked "suspicious" (based on Zimmerman's call). I doubt that Trayvon would've attacked the police.
No one (other than Zimmerman) will ever know what could've happened because Zimmerman decided to follow him and "become" the police. By doing this he put himself in potential harm's way. Again, why do this?
He was obviously tired of all of the break-ins in his neighborhood so felt compelled to do something about it. I can understand that. If I saw someone whom I thought looked suspicious, better yet, exhibiting suspicious behavior (looking into different cars, walking around with a weapon), I would call the police too. Then I would sit back and LET the police handle it. Why would I follow this person? Especially not knowing what state of mind this person is in......or if this person has a gat, etc.
Why has that simple fact not been addressed?
Actually, some are now saying that when Zimmerman was told he didn't have to follow, he said, "Okay" and started returning to his truck. It's also consistent with the story he's given.
And even if he gets arrested at this point - as someone above mentioned "even the police" think he was lying - that doesn't make him guilty (though I'm not saying he's not). Fact is that the police are now under huge media, political, and public pressure to bring this guy in.
Not that I let what the police or the courts decide on one case form my opinions about life anyhow...
As far as the "Uncle Joe" graphic posted above, this Uncle Tom type shit is the exact thing that worries me about this case.
So this guy has a different opinion than the rest of the world and is willing to step out to try and do the right thing, subjecting himself to the ridicule and resentment of the majority of the African American community as well as putting himself at the mercy of extremists, and he's an "Uncle Tom" for that?
That's called a witch hunt, and it's a human tendency that's been responsible for the deaths and sufferings of individuals and minorities, including African Americans, all throughout history.
In my opinion, even if the guy ends up being wrong, he's a hero for having the guts to stand up to those odds in the name of right and wrong.
The guy worked for CNN for 10 years - you don't think he knows the shitstorm he's bringing down on himself? I say mad props to him for having that kind of courage.
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - jariel - 03-28-2012
Quote: (03-28-2012 05:36 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:
[quote='jariel' pid='184939' dateline='1332912869']
I'm pretty sure the Treyvon Martin/George Zimmerman issue falls on racial lines.
Blacks are on Martin's side. Whites are on George's side (even though George isn't white).
That's just the way it is.
Hold on dude, that is Brian Limbaugh's quote, not mine.
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - JayMillz - 03-28-2012
Quote: (03-28-2012 05:36 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:
Actually, some are now saying that when Zimmerman was told he didn't have to follow, he said, "Okay"
that is correct, but he was angry and felt empowered with a gun.
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - jariel - 03-28-2012
Quote: (03-28-2012 05:32 PM)assman Wrote:
Not relevant to Martin case, but puts the uproar over this in perspective:
According to US Dept. of Justice, in 2005, black males accounted for 52% of male homicide victims. Obviously everyone here understands this is very disproportionate to blacks as % of the population. 93% of the time, the killer is black.
Seems to me that it would be a better use of the black community's leadership's time and energy to curtail black-on-black killing than to run around painting every white-on-black killing as racially motivated and part of a 'war on blacks'.
Wait - does this make me a racist?
![[Image: 34qpyc0.jpg]](http://i41.tinypic.com/34qpyc0.jpg)
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - assman - 03-28-2012
Quote: (03-28-2012 06:14 PM)jariel Wrote:Your point?
Quote: (03-28-2012 05:32 PM)assman Wrote:
Not relevant to Martin case, but puts the uproar over this in perspective:
According to US Dept. of Justice, in 2005, black males accounted for 52% of male homicide victims. Obviously everyone here understands this is very disproportionate to blacks as % of the population. 93% of the time, the killer is black.
Seems to me that it would be a better use of the black community's leadership's time and energy to curtail black-on-black killing than to run around painting every white-on-black killing as racially motivated and part of a 'war on blacks'.
Wait - does this make me a racist?
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - Beyond Borders - 03-28-2012
Quote: (03-28-2012 06:00 PM)jariel Wrote:
Quote: (03-28-2012 05:36 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:
(03-28-2012, 05:34 AM)jariel Wrote: I'm pretty sure the Treyvon Martin/George Zimmerman issue falls on racial lines.
Blacks are on Martin's side. Whites are on George's side (even though George isn't white).
That's just the way it is.
Hold on dude, that is Brian Limbaugh's quote, not mine.
Oh, my bad.Well Limbaugh is a jackass, no doubt.
Quote: (03-28-2012 06:05 PM)JayMillz Wrote:
[quote] (03-28-2012 05:36 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:
Actually, some are now saying that when Zimmerman was told he didn't have to follow, he said, "Okay"
that is correct, but he was angry and felt empowered with a gun.
That's fine, and I understand your thoughts on that - it still doesn't prove anything. Again, I'm not arguing for Zimmerman. I'm arguing for rational-thinking and perspective rather than what's going on. The case needs some serious scrutiny. But even if the public's wrong, wrong, it won't be admitted - people have already made up their minds.
Did you hear about the wrong address getting tweeted out and some old couple having to go stay in a hotel room because of the harassment? That's the type of shit that's wrong with public conviction based on loose facts and assumptions.
For the record, I'd probably carry a gun if I lived in that neighborhood too. I doubt I'd ever follow strangers around and be a lurker though.
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - jariel - 03-28-2012
Quote: (03-28-2012 06:38 PM)assman Wrote:
Your point?
I just put up the whole chart from the DOJ site so all of the information could be seen as opposed to just cherry picking numbers so a hollow point could be made.
Murders are intra-racial, so Blacks kill Blacks, Whites kill Whites, etc.
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - jariel - 03-28-2012
Zimmerman in handcuffs, but no signs of injury?
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012...adquarters
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - assman - 03-28-2012
Quote: (03-28-2012 06:43 PM)jariel Wrote:Yes, most murders are intra-racial. And blacks are murdering each other at rates far higher than other races. How does that argue against the point I made?
Quote: (03-28-2012 06:38 PM)assman Wrote:I just put up the whole chart from the DOJ site so all of the information could be seen as opposed to just cherry picking numbers so a hollow point could be made.
Your point?
Murders are intra-racial, so Blacks kill Blacks, Whites kill Whites, etc.
"Seems to me that it would be a better use of the black community's leadership's time and energy to curtail black-on-black killing than to run around painting every white-on-black killing as racially motivated and part of a 'war on blacks'."
Do you disagree with this point?
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - jariel - 03-28-2012
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2...bcnews-com
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National - jariel - 03-28-2012
![[Image: joe-oliver-and-family.jpg]](http://sandrarose.com/images15/joe-oliver-and-family.jpg)