How bad the average guys game is - Printable Version
+- Roosh V Forum (https://rooshvforum.network)
+-- Forum: Main (https://rooshvforum.network/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Game (https://rooshvforum.network/forum-2.html)
+--- Thread: How bad the average guys game is (/thread-11288.html)
+- Roosh V Forum (https://rooshvforum.network)
+-- Forum: Main (https://rooshvforum.network/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Game (https://rooshvforum.network/forum-2.html)
+--- Thread: How bad the average guys game is (/thread-11288.html)
How bad the average guys game is - americanInEurope - 03-14-2012
Anybody else notice this:
You're out on a date. Things are going great. You're deep into convo, have built rapport, know you're going to tap that shit very very soon, when the chick finally confesses, "you know, you're the most normal guy I've been out with in a long time."
I'm like really? "Yeah, most guys come on dates and talk about their cars, or their ex girlfriends, or some other stupid shit and I end up getting bored and just leaving them right then and there." I'm kind speechless because I'm like 1) what a cold hearted bitch, and 2) I can't believe dudes come on dates and start talking about their car or their job. I mean I love my car, but I don't think I've ever brought it up in conversation on a date. I mean seriously, are dude's really talking about this shit during dates? Am I the only one in disbelief when chicks confess this shit to me? I mean do these guys not have a plan or what? Do they WANT to go home and beat off instead of fucking a tiny beautiful va-jayjay?
I kind of actually feel sorry for chicks (only for a minute) who have to go through this. It's no wonder why chicks around here don't date, don't give eye contact, and frankly don't give guys the time of day. 90% of them have no fucking game and it's just a waste of time for them. And this ends up hurting all guys, because when chicks expect such shitty game they end up treating all guys on the street accordingly. I have 2 female cousins around 22 and they both have confirmed this to me. They're both good looking but are angry about guys all the time. I'm like why, what's up? They say they've had enough of the stupid shit guys say to pick them up. They had it up to here. So much that a guy pretty much has to be a Casanova or something just to get them to give you the time of day. And as much as it hurts to say this guys, I think we kinda did that. Not guys with game, but the other dudes. The guys who get wasted and walk up to chicks and try pickup lines and shit.
How bad the average guys game is - thegmanifesto - 03-14-2012
Yeah. Guys are idiots.
It's good though. Makes it easier for us.
I don't think I have ever brought up cars or work on a date. Or have ever discussed it.
Hell, no girl I have ever dated knows exactly what I do.
I have known girls for two years and they don't have the first clue what I do.
How bad the average guys game is - Samseau - 03-14-2012
The average guy's game is abysmal. Yet in spite of this, girls are still banging all the time...
How bad the average guys game is - Screwston - 03-14-2012
Is that what average guys talk to girls about? I should set up one of those PUA workshops for these dummies...
How bad the average guys game is - speakeasy - 03-14-2012
I've heard much worse. Dudes bragging about their dick on a first date. Or getting into heated political debates.
How bad the average guys game is - at350zguyy - 03-14-2012
if a girl asks what you do, do you tell them straight up or do you try to avoid answering the question?
How bad the average guys game is - americanInEurope - 03-14-2012
Quote: (03-14-2012 10:06 PM)at350zguyy Wrote:
if a girl asks what you do, do you tell them straight up or do you try to avoid answering the question?
If it doesn't add value to the conversation or you can't create an awesome segway or something with it, then answer and move on. If you work a Chili's, tell her about some crazy customers. If you're a garbage man, tell her how people of different races have different kinds of trash and how interesting it is. If you're in IT tell her you have an idea that you're really passionate about that you'll one day act one. For example.
How bad the average guys game is - Parlay44 - 03-14-2012
Quote: (03-14-2012 09:40 PM)Samseau Wrote:
The average guy's game is abysmal. Yet in spite of this, girls are still banging all the time...
Without game as an option to choose from women will bang guys based on looks or money.
I still believe game is better. You get in their mind and grab hold of their imagination and emotions. Turns them on like nothing else. If you do it right they'll chase after YOU. That's when you know you're game is tight.
How bad the average guys game is - Aliblahba - 03-14-2012
Quote: (03-14-2012 09:57 PM)speakeasy Wrote:
I've heard much worse. Dudes bragging about their dick on a first date. Or getting into heated political debates.
I used to love watching that show Blind Date. It was amazing what guys would do. One admitted to fucking other dudes in college. Another guy boxed up a scorpion and gave it to a girl. She had a total meltdown. I know it's a t.v. show, but guys do stupid all the time in real life.
If your job is interesting, girls want to hear about. A lot of chicks lead a mundane existence, and like a guy that does something cool. Problem is, chicks are very polar about what I do, so I have to be careful.
How bad the average guys game is - iknowexactly - 03-14-2012
after fucking up endless conversations by assuming women have functioning curiosity or logic, here's my take:
bad: work, school, politics, religion (unless it's some spacy shit like Eck), any serious intellectual endeavor like inventing, science, serious talk about art.
good: travel, movies, what's fun for them, their animals.
in EE you can get a take on how upwardly mobile and entitled they are by whether they casually mention
wanting to move to a Western (German, Austrian) city. More interesting types want to see someplace really cool and scenic
like Norway.
Unless they have some in-demand skill like heavy investment banking or something, they really have no legal right to
move to West unless they climb the marriage ladder. But if they seem oblivious to that they may have "a boyfriend" in the West inflating their expectations or leading them on, or they might just be plain dumb, like an Murkan ghetto kid who wants to be a pro ball player and is 5"8"
Women are so dumb they can't think beyond basic sense gratification; so only subjects that are one step away from their senses are appealing--thus travel, movies, clothes...
What are permissible subjects that they are capable of understanding:
pets, travel, (see the pretty castle, forest, lake), clothes, ummmmmm, far out theories like astrology,
mysticism-- anything that is sense-oriented and doesn't take intellectual rigor. They can have pseudo-intellectual discussions about art, but it really is more see-the-pretty-picture stuff.
Edit: I've just thought of the fact they really like movies because there is a lot of social interactions which interests them in movies, also sense distraction for their teeny brains.
Also, discussing movies gives you an excuse to invite them over your place. Movies fit chickmind better than other arts because it is high-stim, low logic required.
I really want to get over my frustration about how dumb women are. I mean, I loved my dog, but I didn't expect him to debate fiscal policy. Women are basically children, and the ones that try to act like grown ups are abrasive and angry, so it's not something to wish for.
How bad the average guys game is - americanInEurope - 03-14-2012
Quote: (03-14-2012 10:25 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:
after fucking up endless conversations by assuming women have functioning curiosity or logic, here's my take:
bad: work, school, politics, religion (unless it's some spacy shit like Eck), any serious intellectual endeavor like inventing, science, serious talk about art.
good: travel, movies, what's fun for them, their animals.
in EE you can get a take on how upwardly mobile and entitled they are by whether they casually mention
wanting to move to a Western (German, Austrian) city. More interesting types want to see someplace really cool and scenic
like Norway.
Unless they have some in-demand skill like heavy investment banking or something, they really have no legal right to
move to West unless they climb the marriage ladder. But if they seem oblivious to that they may have "a boyfriend" in the West inflating their expectations or leading them on, or they might just be plain dumb, like an Murkan ghetto kid who wants to be a pro ball player and is 5"8"
Women are so dumb they can't think beyond basic sense gratification; so only subjects that are one step away from their senses are appealing--thus travel, movies, clothes...
What are permissible subjects that they are capable of understanding:
pets, travel, (see the pretty castle, forest, lake), clothes, ummmmmm, far out theories like astrology,
mysticism-- anything that is sense-oriented and doesn't take intellectual rigor. They can have pseudo-intellectual discussions about art, but it really is more see-the-pretty-picture stuff.
Edit: I've just thought of the fact they really like movies because there is a lot of social interactions which interests them in movies, also sense distraction for their teeny brains.
Also, discussing movies gives you an excuse to invite them over your place. Movies fit chickmind better than other arts because it is high-stim, low logic required.
I really want to get over my frustration about how dumb women are. I mean, I loved my dog, but I didn't expect him to debate fiscal policy. Women are basically children, and the ones that try to act like grown ups are abrasive and angry, so it's not something to wish for.
Wow bro, why so negative. I mean, I'm the first one to say "bitch you're dumb" when a bitch is dumb, but I've also had some cool ass, ride or die chicks that have really proved themselves to me. Chicks that have given me money when times were hard, fucked me and wore the nasty stuff I want them to wear when their stupid fucking friends are telling them not to do that, exes who have winged with me or set me up with their friends who also wanted some dick, etc etc etc. I've got a special place in my heart that opens right up when I meet a down ass chick. All chicks like stupid shit sometimes but that cancels out when you factor in how cool they can be at other times. I wouldn't call them dumb. They're just complicated.
I think you're meeting the wrong chicks (American).
How bad the average guys game is - Aliblahba - 03-14-2012
I spent years working in bars as a side gig. That's a good job to study human interaction. What amazed me early on, was how much a chick will tolerate. Some of them just don't know any better, because every guy they dated were busted. It's also true in places where the ratio isn't in women's favor. This could be city wide, or down to the ratio in the bar that night.
How bad the average guys game is - WesternCancer - 03-14-2012
I'd also add that a lot of them don't want to be seen as bitches and reject the guy. A lot of girls I've known have had one beta dude into them at one point or another always asking to hangout. They do and they get creeped out by them, but still take it. I tell them to just say "im not into you this isnt happening" they tell me they don't want to be mean/a bitch. Its funny ebcause they have no problem saying it to guys like us. I guess they know we can take the rejection and wont go psycho-stalker on them.
I just found this on my facebook. Its based out of my university. Basically people take candid photos of the people they like and post them on this site in hopes that person will see it and contact them. There was a text based thing of this that was huge last year. Pathetic. These kids spend so much time with their face in a book their social skills have either atrophied or not even developed to the point of being able to say hi to a stranger. EXTREME BETATUDE
This just in RVF user WesternCancer dies of exhaustion after approaching 1000 girls in a day because everyone else is too much of a pussy to.
How bad the average guys game is - Aliblahba - 03-14-2012
This contributes to the problem of American women. The average guy. I've watched a quality girl sit in the bar and get approached by 5 total douche bags. It starts giving women a complex. Let's flip the script. What if every night you went out 10 fat girls approached you? You'd start to think something was wrong with you. That's why when they hook up with one of us they cling. The alternative is to go back to the bar single and have the Jersey Shore castoff's trying to pick them up.
This is an issue I have with the PUA community. They preach about approaching anything, and everything. It's contributing to the problem.
How bad the average guys game is - Excelsior - 03-14-2012
Quote: (03-14-2012 10:25 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:
after fucking up endless conversations by assuming women have functioning curiosity or logic, here's my take:
bad: work, school, politics, religion (unless it's some spacy shit like Eck), any serious intellectual endeavor like inventing, science, serious talk about art.
good: travel, movies, what's fun for them, their animals.
Women are so dumb they can't think beyond basic sense gratification; so only subjects that are one step away from their senses are appealing--thus travel, movies, clothes...
What are permissible subjects that they are capable of understanding:
pets, travel, (see the pretty castle, forest, lake), clothes, ummmmmm, far out theories like astrology,
mysticism-- anything that is sense-oriented and doesn't take intellectual rigor. They can have pseudo-intellectual discussions about art, but it really is more see-the-pretty-picture stuff.
Edit: I've just thought of the fact they really like movies because there is a lot of social interactions which interests them in movies, also sense distraction for their teeny brains.
Also, discussing movies gives you an excuse to invite them over your place. Movies fit chickmind better than other arts because it is high-stim, low logic required.
I really want to get over my frustration about how dumb women are. I mean, I loved my dog, but I didn't expect him to debate fiscal policy. Women are basically children, and the ones that try to act like grown ups are abrasive and angry, so it's not something to wish for.
Dead on. I'd +1 you right now if we still did that, because this post is wholeheartedly deserving of it.
Its like I wrote before: the average American woman (and some in other locales, undoubtedly) require intellectual devolution for success.
You must dumb it down for them, and leave all traces of serious or intellectual discussion far behind if you'd like to be successful.
AmericaninEurope posits that these men talk about the things they do because they might not actually want to have have sex and prefer "beating off". As a male who has been guilty of foolishly engaging in these conversations with women before (many times, I'm sad to say), I can tell you that this is not the case. Men talk about these things because:
a. They don't know any better. They never learned to banter with women, particularly those of the modern western variety.
b. They're misguided. They were either told by their mothers (along with every other woman and many males in their life) that "being yourself" is the ideal method to finding a mate, or they mistakenly assume that talking about what they know will be interesting, since "women are equal" in their minds and thus should (in their heads) be interested in similar things.
Reality is completely different, obviously, but most of these guys must learn this the hard way.
c. Many of these men are just naturally intellectually inclined and/or somewhat nerdy (gearheads, auto-nuts, plane enthusiasts, engineers, etc, etc). Their minds naturally gravitate towards the more technical topics and methods of speech, and they always have. This is great in school, at work, and around their peers, but you can imagine that it'd be an attraction killer.
The reason so many remain gameless wonders is because it is incredibly difficult to re-train oneself away from these ways of thinking and speaking while one is around a woman. This makes sense, since it is a part of you. The more intellectually inclined you are, the harder this lesson is to absorb. Some guys must train themselves VERY rigorously in order to get their level of banter down to the level that women find appealing, and kill their habit of trailing off into attraction-killing topics or methods of speech.
Others just lean on alcohol, which naturally dumbs them down and loosens them up to where they can avoid turning her off with their mouths.
Game has historically attracted many relatively analytically skilled, intellectual (sometimes nerdy) guys. Roissy/Heartiste and others throughout the manosphere have also noted that higher intelligence is negatively correlated with sexual success in men.
These are not coincidences.
Quote: (03-14-2012 10:55 PM)americanInEurope Wrote:
Wow bro, why so negative. I mean, I'm the first one to say "bitch you're dumb" when a bitch is dumb, but I've also had some cool ass, ride or die chicks that have really proved themselves to me. Chicks that have given me money when times were hard, fucked me and wore the nasty stuff I want them to wear when their stupid fucking friends are telling them not to do that, exes who have winged with me or set me up with their friends who also wanted some dick, etc etc etc. I've got a special place in my heart that opens right up when I meet a down ass chick. All chicks like stupid shit sometimes but that cancels out when you factor in how cool they can be at other times. I wouldn't call them dumb. They're just complicated.
I think you're meeting the wrong chicks (American).
Even as you try to disagree with him, you are unable to explain why he's wrong or directly state that this is the case. Deep down, you know the deal.
He didn't claim that chicks were incapable of loaning money, wearing sexy clothes, fucking, or any of that.
He claimed that they were not often intellectually inclined when in conversation with men (some may call this behavior "dumb"-use whichever terms you prefer) and that replacing intellectual insight with more fluffy emotional topics was the key to success.
With the average american woman, smart = attraction killer. They want dumb, and their mating behaviors/responses are most often in line with that desire.
He's absolutely correct about this. As a guy, you can choose to either adapt to this (easier for some than others) or just jack off, but you'll always have to face this reality.
How bad the average guys game is - thegmanifesto - 03-15-2012
Quote: (03-14-2012 11:33 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:
This contributes to the problem of American women. The average guy. I've watched a quality girl sit in the bar and get approached by 5 total douche bags. It starts giving women a complex. Let's flip the script. What if every night you went out 10 fat girls approached you? You'd start to think something was wrong with you. That's why when they hook up with one of us they cling. The alternative is to go back to the bar single and have the Jersey Shore castoff's trying to pick them up.
This is an issue I have with the PUA community. They preach about approaching anything, and everything. It's contributing to the problem.
This is a great point.
Guys are a huge part of the problem. Especially in America.
I mean we have guys wearing glitter and skinny girls jeans.
You swoop young girls and you have to un-train them.
This younger generation of girls and guys is the worst yet.
Never have I seen a generation that takes all the sh*t shoved down their throats and thinks that it tastes good.
How bad the average guys game is - americanInEurope - 03-15-2012
Quote: (03-14-2012 11:43 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:
Even as you try to disagree with him, you are unable to explain why he's wrong or directly state that this is the case. Deep down, you know the deal.
He didn't claim that chicks were incapable of loaning money, wearing sexy clothes, fucking, or any of that.
He claimed that they were not often intellectually inclined when in conversation with men (some may call this behavior "dumb"-use whichever terms you prefer) and that replacing intellectual insight with more fluffy emotional topics was the key to success.
With the average american woman, smart = attraction killer. They want dumb, and their mating behaviors/responses are most often in line with that desire.
He's absolutely correct about this. As a guy, you can choose to either adapt to this (easier for some than others) or just jack off, but you'll always have to face this reality.
Yeah if you look at it like that, I think most people are fucking dumb. The people in my building are dumb, the people that I've met in Laurel, MD are fucking dumb, most people I meet on a daily basis are incapable of having a normal conversation or acting like a pussy about something that's not a big deal (myself included sometimes). What I'm saying is you have to weigh the good with the bad. Life's not perfect. You'll never ever meet a perfect girl, a smart and funny and hot and sexy combo chick (unless you follow my numbers game theory and go to countries where there are tons of hot girls already
![[Image: smile.gif]](https://rooshvforum.network/images/smilies/smile.gif)
). My standards aren't that high. It all depends on what your threshold for pain is. My personal deal breaker is different from you guys. I've met a few girls in my life that were absolute cool as chicks that I'd marry if I wasn't such a poon hound. They all had shit about them I didn't like, either clingyness or sluttyness or dumbness or whatever. But if a chick is sweet and sincere, man I'll give her a shot at the title. Fuck it. We'll work on the other stuff. You're not perfect, so don't expect chicks to be.It's self destructive to get into the habit of thinking so negatively about women. It is the way it is. Adapt and move on, or not.
And regarding your 3 reasons a lot of guys talk about shit that they like on dates instead of finding out shit that the girl likes... I don't know man. I wasn't lucky or anything, I just grew up around people who pretty much expected me to know how to talk to a girl at a young age, and had good mentors to emulate (older brothers, my dad, seniors in HS who had game, etc). It wasn't that hard to figure out what not to talk about with a chick. Like anything I had to feel out what worked and what didn't. It took a while. But it eventually became part of my personality because I did it a lot. I refused to sit home while other guys out there were fucking MY girls. Maybe the guys you describe need motivation. I bet you they can put a fucking turbo kit on my GT-R blindfolded, so why can't they figure out how to illicit and use information from a chick who has already agreed to date you (i.e she likes you).
How bad the average guys game is - Screwston - 03-15-2012
I usually try to focus on the girl and see what we have in common so I can use that "bond" to my advantage. Girls like to hear themselves talk. Just let them ramble on. I keep myself closed off and I think some girls like the mystery or whatever.
How bad the average guys game is - WestCoast - 03-15-2012
Great thread, i believe "adapt or move on" is the best way to think about game. In fact i'd say thats the best type of game. We're able to not talk about work/politics/other BS because we've taken the time to read/travel/experience interesting things other dudes don't.
I'm no expert but i notice dramatic changes in my ability to game every single time i do an interesting activity, also the happier i am about my life the more I seem to draw attention regardless of the way i am dressed (which still needs improvement).
How bad the average guys game is - Tuthmosis - 03-15-2012
I'm a habitual game-eavesdropper and I'm constantly listening to random dudes' shit. I'm frankly shocked when other guys' game doesn't suck monumentally. Here and there, I'll hear some good material and nod my head in approval, but most of the time it's boring and weak. The girl is just yessing him along long enough to get out of there. Other times, it's straight cringe-worthy.
Girls I go out with tell me a lot too. One thing I've heard several times lately is, "guys don't even try to kiss me on the first date most of the time." Not only are guys not pushing for sex, they're not even pushing for a fucking kiss. I've had a couple of girls tell me a lot of guys ask for permission to kiss them. "May I kiss you now?" I shit you not.
How bad the average guys game is - Aliblahba - 03-15-2012
Quote: (03-15-2012 12:01 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:
Quote: (03-14-2012 11:33 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:
This contributes to the problem of American women. The average guy. I've watched a quality girl sit in the bar and get approached by 5 total douche bags. It starts giving women a complex. Let's flip the script. What if every night you went out 10 fat girls approached you? You'd start to think something was wrong with you. That's why when they hook up with one of us they cling. The alternative is to go back to the bar single and have the Jersey Shore castoff's trying to pick them up.
This is an issue I have with the PUA community. They preach about approaching anything, and everything. It's contributing to the problem.
This is a great point.
Guys are a huge part of the problem. Especially in America.
I mean we have guys wearing glitter and skinny girls jeans.
You swoop young girls and you have to un-train them.
This younger generation of girls and guys is the worst yet.
Never have I seen a generation that takes all the sh*t shoved down their throats and thinks that it tastes good.
It's because men in America are entitled. Just as bad as the women. Every guy wants to bang a model, but doesn't want to put in the effort to attain this goal. It's just "owed". Funny too, guys always call a girl a bitch when she shoots him down, even when she does it politely. Why, because he was entitled to her ass.
Younger guys now have no inner game. Their all over the place. They get their fashion from MTV.
How bad the average guys game is - thegmanifesto - 03-15-2012
Quote: (03-15-2012 12:44 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:
I'm a habitual game-eavesdropper and I'm constantly listening to random dudes' shit. I'm frankly shocked when other guys' game doesn't suck monumentally. Here and there, I'll hear some good material and nod my head in approval, but most of the time it's boring and weak. The girl is just yessing him along long enough to get out of there. Other times, it's straight cringe-worthy.
Girls I go out with tell me a lot too. One thing I've heard several times lately is, "guys don't even try to kiss me on the first date most of the time." Not only are guys not pushing for sex, they're not even pushing for a fucking kiss. I've had a couple of girls tell me a lot of guys ask for permission to kiss them. "May I kiss you now?" I shit you not.
Agreed 100%.
I hate to start a firestorm, but I have to be that guy.
I rarely if ever seen non-smokers spitting strong Game. They never have any "motion" or "momentum" to their Game. Just stand there in the bar yapping.
No isolation moves. No getting the pendulum swinging. No active closing.
The strongest Game I ever see is from smokers and the smoking areas.
That is where the swoops night in and night out go down.
Again, I am not saying it doesn't happen, I am just saying I never see it.
And I have gone out 2-5 nights a week since I was 16-17 or so.
How bad the average guys game is - scorpio - 03-15-2012
A lot of good stuff here.
The current sub-21 generation is beyond fucked. Un-training them? Good look with that. Best to just go for the bang. I mean, you're trying to undo all the garbage they absorbed from their (divorced) parents, their backstabbing peers (girls), and the Kim Kardashian culture at-large.
Personally, I have my own reservations about bashing the current lost generation of (clueless, docile, and feminized) boys. Many of them are my peers, and if it weren't for some hard-wired genetics, I'd probably be like them.
Is it me? Or is it extremely rare to encounter a strong, well-grounded man of any age in America these days? Where are the boys of this age to find their role models beyond the privileged few who have access to these few exceptional men? You must mean the women called mothers who make it their daily pleasure to emasculate every man in their sight.
How bad the average guys game is - thegmanifesto - 03-15-2012
Quote: (03-15-2012 01:09 AM)scorpio Wrote:
A lot of good stuff here.
The current sub-21 generation is beyond fucked. Un-training them? Good look with that. Best to just go for the bang. I mean, you're trying to undo all the garbage they absorbed from their (divorced) parents, their backstabbing peers (girls), and the Kim Kardashian culture at-large.
Personally, I have my own reservations about bashing the current lost generation of (clueless, docile, and feminized) boys. Many of them are my peers, and if it weren't for some hard-wired genetics, I'd probably be like them.
Is it me? Or is it extremely rare to encounter a strong, well-grounded man of any age in America these days? Where are the boys of this age to find their role models? You must mean the women called mothers who make it their daily pleasure to emasculate every man in their sight.
I will bash the younger generation.
No class.
Trust me, I look for young kids I can bring into my fold.
None of them have any style or class. Cheapskates as well. Ungrateful. No work ethic. And they don't listen.
When I was a young G coming up, I respected my elders. I listened. I kept my mouth shut. If I wanted to learn from them, I took them to lunch. Or dinner. Or drinks. I paid.
I never see any of that get up an go anymore.
I have nearly given up on them.
How bad the average guys game is - scorpio - 03-15-2012
Quote: (03-15-2012 01:14 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:
I will bash the younger generation.
No class.
Trust me, I look for young kids I can bring into my fold.
None of them have any style or class. Cheapskates as well. Ungrateful. No work ethic. And they don't listen.
When I was a young G coming up, I respected my elders. I listened. I kept my mouth shut. If I wanted to learn from them, I took them to lunch. Or dinner. Or drinks. I paid.
I never see any of that get up an go anymore.
I have nearly given up on them.
That's entirely your right. You've contributed enough here to knock down any young punk who comes here with attitude.
I'm just sayin' that it's hard for me to criticize these guys because I've pretty much went through the same socialization they went through.