UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Printable Version
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UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - mikado - 11-15-2018
Quote: (11-15-2018 10:53 AM)Richard Turpin Wrote:
@Mikado, I don't think any Brexiteer thought this was going to be easy, we're up against a biased media for a start. I think it should be 'simple' (with the right will at the top to see it through), but never easy.
I get the very real sense that the real battle is only starting now. Things are moving fast and the last couple of years since the vote has only been a prelude to what's kicking off now.
@H1N1, your (realistic) post made me gloomy, but now I'm starting to pick up, after all, we may now get rid of May and get Jacob Rees Mogg as PM!
The thing is that everyone is so anti May that the (less worse ) solution is the No-deal.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Foolsgo1d - 11-15-2018
Quote: (11-15-2018 08:25 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:
That'd be a hell of a campaign.
I can picture you driving around in a bus covered in a mural of civil war between Britons and Muslims with giant text at the top and bottom.
THE SOONER WE GET LABOR IN
THE SOONER WE CAN GET IT ON!
*toot toot*
Im too white for that campaign though.
3 Small fry have quit but no big boys have which is troubling. They had all night to scheme their way to get rid of May and get some balls but so far nothing real has come.
Lots of posturing about a failing government and the media are just loving it by trying to push a narrative where May is going to the gallows at the pleasure of the Queen.
There are senior MPs behind the plan and it is they who need to be kicked out of power along with her. The EU must have made some big promises to certain groups and individuals for this thing to still be in existence and not aborted and thrown out the back door.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Bucephalus - 11-16-2018
Best of the comment thread:
"The British Bulldog was asleep but just opened one eye"
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Richard Turpin - 11-16-2018
Very good article here on Breitbart, A Brief Guide to Brexit;
https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2018/11...-got-here/
Clarifies a lot of points many people I speak to wonder about; Why did Cameron call the referendum in the first place?;
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The political consensus at the time was that, as in 2010, no one political party would win an outright parliamentary majority in the 2015 election, and so there was some question as to whether Cameron ever really planned on holding an EU referendum. Many commentators believed the proposal was simply a ploy to win UKIP votes, and that he was confident a referendum would, in fact, be blocked by the other, anti-referendum parties in Parliament when the time came for his minority or coalition government to honour his pledge.
Why they still expected Remain to win;
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There was a confident expectation that the official Remain campaign, backed by all the machinery of the British government and the devolved administrations in Scotland and Wales, with the support of big business and the global establishment — including then-U.S. President Barack Obama and the leadership of the International Monetary Fund, World Trade Organization, and other international bodies — would carry the day.
They were all stunned when, in defiance of the polls, the British public backed Leave by a margin of well over a million votes on June 23rd, 2016, thanks in large part to a huge number of working-class voters being won over by Nigel Farage’s warning that Brexit was the only way to bring end years of uncontrolled mass migration.
A few other tidbits that explain why the EU is such a bad idea for the UK;
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This means that the UK, which is unique in the EU in that it does the bulk of its trade with countries outside the bloc, cannot negotiate free trade agreements with some of its most significant partners, including the United States and its old allies in the Commonwealth of Nations, and must instead rely on the EU to negotiate deals on its behalf.
and why a £39 Billion payout is no good;
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with the Prime Minister agreeing to pay the bloc a multi-billion divorce settlement, despite the fact the United Kingdom has put more into the EU’s shared budget than it has taken out of it for decades.
It also explains that the Tories (contrary to popular opinion) have always been all about the EU;
Quote:Quote:
While often regarded as “eurosceptic”, Britain’s governing Conservative Party — also known as the Tories — did, in fact, facilitate the country’s entry into the European Economic Community (EEC) in the 1970s, and signed off on the Maastricht Treaty which transformed it into the European Union in the 1990s.
The Conservatives have always had a smattering of anti-EU MP's, but they have always had a pro-EU majority to control them. This is despite the fact that the party membership consists of mostly anti-EU folk.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Praetor Lupus - 11-16-2018
Letters have going in since yesterday evening from Tory MPs to force a vote of no confidence in May's leadership.
48 such letters are needed to trigger the vote. One 'insider' claimed that he had seen at least 48 letters, and more, only to later tweet, with a Diane Abbott or Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez-level of numerical competence, that the actual number was closer to 22.
Not the landslide that Jacob Rees-Mogg, who is apparently the leader of a rebel group within the backbenchers, was hoping for, though apparently many MPs have gone back to their constituencies to gauge the mood there before submitting letters of their own. Let me save them some time there: everyone thinks this is a shit deal.
Mind you, even if a vote is triggered, I expect May to win, which leaves us to hope that the bill is voted down in Parliament in December. I suspect it will; the DUP have said they don't agree wit it, Labour will vote it down if the Whip can get the Remainer MPs in line, as they'll just see it as their chance to finish May off. Ironically, by doing so, Corbyn may in fact be the one to save the country.
This may well lead to a Corbyn government, but at least you can get rid of them after 5 years. No such luck with the EU.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Foolsgo1d - 11-16-2018
Quote: (11-16-2018 03:50 PM)Praetor Lupus Wrote:
This may well lead to a Corbyn government, but at least you can get rid of them after 5 years. No such luck with the EU.
Once Labour is in they stay in. Any Conservative government that may get in later will not be a Conservative party in the traditional sense. Same shit, different suit.
Labour will have 10 years to fuck the country up even more.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - N°6 - 11-17-2018
The DUP would be savaged by its own voters if it agrees to a customs border that sees Northern Ireland remain in the EU as a quasi reichsprotektorat, which is watched over by EU functionaries lest it ‘import’ goods from the rest of the UK.
The EU will break up the UK then it will divide England into administrative departments.
We are seeing why Macron and his new party had to be invented to back Merkel after le Front Nationale had destroyed the Socialist Party.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Leonard D Neubache - 11-17-2018
After five years of Labor your alternative will be the Shariah Now party.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - N°6 - 11-17-2018
It’s far worse that we thought men. It’s a bit like Germany’s cost of the armistice - all of the burdens but none of the benefits.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/th...exit-deal/
According to this blog, the UK is still an EU Member State under EU Law and it’s to pay tribute but without any representation.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Nineteen84 - 11-17-2018
Quote: (11-17-2018 10:59 AM)N°6 Wrote:
It’s far worse that we thought men. It’s a bit like Germany’s cost of the armistice - all of the burdens but none of the benefits.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/th...exit-deal/
According to this blog, the UK is still an EU Member State under EU Law and it’s to pay tribute but without any representation.
Quote:Quote:
The top 40 horrors lurking in the small print of Theresa May’s Brexit dealop 40 horrors lurking in the small print of Theresa May’s Brexit deal
Steerpike
17 November 2018
8:55 AM
This week, Theresa May’s government teetered on the point of collapse over her proposed Brexit deal. The withdrawal agreement between the UK and Brussels led to Dominic Raab and Esther McVey resigning in protest. However, May’s remaining ministers have since attempted to rally around her at least in the short term. Speaking on Friday, Liam Fox – the Internation] al Trade Secretary – gave a speech in which he declared ‘a deal is better than no deal’. This is rather different to May’s old claim that ‘no deal is better than a bad deal’.
So, is Fox right? Mr S thought it best to let readers decide for themselves. In theory, Britain is leaving the EU on 29 March 2019. But the legal small print, published by Brussels, shows what this means. Parliament will be asked to ratify a deal which clearly admits that ‘all references to ‘Member States’ and competent authorities of Member States…shall be read as including the United Kingdom.’ (Article 7). So the UK will be [quote]bound by EU laws, at least during a transition period. But this ‘transition period’ can be be made to last forever (Article 132). And even if a successor deal is agreed, the UK will have signed away other rights for years to come.
Just in case readers don’t have the time to go through the lengthly document themselves, Steerpike has compiled a list of the top 40 horrors lurking in the small print of Theresa May’s Brexit deal:
In summary: The supposed ‘transition period’ could last indefinitely or, more specifically, to an undefined date sometime this century (“up to 31 December 20XX”, Art. 132). So while this Agreement covers what the government is calling Brexit, what we in fact get is: ‘transition’ + extension indefinitely (by however many years we are willing to pay for) + all of those extra years from the ‘plus 8 years’ articles.
Should it end within two years, as May hopes, the UK will still be signed up to clauses keeping us under certain rules (like VAT and ECJ supervision) for a further eight years. Some clauses have, quite literally, a “lifetime” duration (Art.39). If the UK defaults on transition, we go in to the backstop with the Customs Union and, realistically, the single market. We can only leave the transition positively with a deal. But we sign away the money. So the EU has no need to give us a deal, and paritycertainly no incentive to make the one they offered ‘better’ than the backstop. The European Court of Justice remains sovereign, as repeatedly stipulated. Perhaps most damagingly of all, we agree to sign away the rights we would have, under international law, to unilaterally walk away. Again, what follows relates (in most part) for the “transition” period. But the language is consistent with the E.U. imagining that this will be the final deal.
Quote:Quote:
The top 40 horrors:
- From the offset, we should note that this is an EU text, not a UK or international text. This has one source. The Brexit agreement is written in Brussels.
- May says her deal means the UK leaves the EU next March. The Withdrawal Agreement makes a mockery of this. “All references to Member States and competent authorities of Member States…shall be read as including the United Kingdom.” (Art 6). Not quite what most people understand by Brexit. It goes on to spell out that the UK will be in the EU but without any MEPs, a commissioner or ECJ judges. We are effectively a Member State, but we are excused – or, more accurately, excluded – from attending summits. (Article 7)
- The European Court of Justice is decreed to be our highest court, governing the entire Agreement – Art. 4. stipulates that both citizens and resident companies can use it. Art 4.2 orders our courts to recognise this. “If the European Commission considers that the United Kingdom has failed to fulfil an obligation under the Treaties or under Part Four of this Agreement before the end of the transition period, the European Commission may, within 4 years after the end of the transition period, bring the matter before the Court of Justice of the European Union”. (Art. 87)
- The jurisdiction of the ECJ will last until eight years after the end of the transition period. (Article 158).
- The UK will still be bound by any future changes to EU law in which it will have no say, not to mention having to comply with current law. (Article 6(2))
- Any disputes under the Agreement will be decided by EU law only – one of the most dangerous provisions. (Article 168). This cuts the UK off from International Law, something we’d never do with any foreign body. Arbitration will be governed by the existing procedural rules of the EU law – this is not arbitration as we would commonly understand it (i.e. between two independent parties). (Article 174)
- “UNDERLINING that this Agreement is founded on an overall balance of benefits, rights and obligations for the Union and the United Kingdom” No, it should be based upon the binding legal obligations upon the EU contained within Article 50. It is wrong to suggest otherwise.
- The tampon tax clause: We obey EU laws on VAT, with no chance of losing the tampon tax even if we agree a better deal in December 2020 because we hereby agree to obey other EU VAT rules for **five years** after the transition period. Current EU rules prohibit 0-rated VAT on products (like tampons) that did not have such exemptions before the country joined the EU.
- Several problems with the EU’s definitions: “Union law” is too widely defined and “United Kingdom national” is defined by the Lisbon Treaty: we should given away our right to define our citizens. The “goods” and the term “services” we are promised the deal are not defined – or, rather, will be defined however the EU wishes them to be. Thus far, this a non-defined term so far. This agreement fails to define it.
- The Mandelson Pension Clause: The UK must promise never to tax former EU officials based here – such as Peter Mandelson or Neil Kinnock – on their E.U. pensions, or tax any current Brussels bureaucrats on their salaries. The EU and its employees are to be immune to our tax laws. (Article 104)
- Furthermore, the UK agrees not to prosecute EU employees who are, or who might be deemed in future, criminals (Art.101)
- The GDPR clause. The General Data Protection Regulation – the EU’s stupidest law ever? – is to be bound into UK law (Articles 71 to 73). There had been an expectation in some quarters that the UK could get out of it.
- The UK establishes a ‘Joint Committee’ with EU representatives to guarantee ‘the implementation and application of this Agreement’. This does not sound like a withdrawal agreement – if it was, why would it need to be subject to continued monitoring? (Article 164). This Joint Committee will have subcommittees with jurisdiction over: (a) citizens’ rights; (b) “other separation provisions”; © Ireland/Northern Ireland; (d) Sovereign Base Areas in Cyprus; (e) Gibraltar; and (f) financial provisions. (Article 165)
- The Lifetime clause: the agreement will last as long as the country’s youngest baby lives. “the persons covered by this Part shall enjoy the rights provided for in the relevant Titles of this Part for their lifetime”. (Article 39).
- The UK is shut out of all EU networks and databases for security – yet no such provision exists to shut the EU out of ours. (Article 8)
- The UK will tied to EU foreign policy, “bound by the obligations stemming from the international agreements concluded by the Union” but unable to influence such decisions. (Article 124)
- All EU citizens must be given permanent right of residence after five years – but what counts as residence? This will be decided by the EU, rather than UK rules. (Articles 15-16)
- Britain is granted the power to send a civil servant to Brussels to watch them pass stupid laws which will hurt our economy. (Article 34)
- The UK agrees to spend taxpayers’ money telling everyone how wonderful the agreement is. (Article 37)
- Art 40 defines Goods. It seems to includes Services and Agriculture. We may come to discover that actually ‘goods’ means everything.
- Articles 40-49 practically mandate the UK’s ongoing membership of the Customs Union in all but name.
- The UK will be charged to receive the data/information we need in order to comply with EU law. (Article 50)
- The EU will continue to set rules for UK intellectual property law (Article 54 to 61)
- The UK will effectively be bound by a non-disclosure agreement swearing us to secrecy regarding any EU developments we have paid to be part. This is not mutual. The EU is not bound by such measures. (Article 74)
- The UK is bound by EU rules on procurement rules – which effectively forbids us from seeking better deals elsewhere. (Articles 75 to 78)
- We give up all rights to any data the EU made with our money (Art. 103)
- The EU decide capital projects (too broadly defined) the UK is liable for. (Art. 144)
- The UK is bound by EU state aid laws until future agreement – even in the event of an agreement, this must wait four years to be valid. (Article 93)
- Similar advantages and immunities are extended to all former MEPs and to former EU official more generally. (Articles 106-116)
- The UK is forbidden from revealing anything the EU told us or tells us about the finer points of deal and its operation. (Article 105).
- Any powers the UK parliament might have had to mitigate EU law are officially removed. (Article 128)
- The UK shall be liable for any “outstanding commitments” after 2022 (Article 142(2) expressly mentions pensions, which gives us an idea as to who probably negotiated this). The amount owed will be calculated by the EU. (Articles 140-142)
- The UK will be liable for future EU lending. As anyone familiar with the EU’s financials knows, this is not good. (Article143)
- The UK will remain liable for capital projects approved by the European Investment Bank. (Article 150).
- The UK will remain a ‘party’ (i.e. cough up money) for the European Development Fund. (Articles 152-154)
- And the EU continues to calculate how much money the UK should pay it. So thank goodness Brussels does not have any accountancy issues.
- The UK will remain bound (i.e coughing up money) to the European Union Emergency Trust Fund – which deals with irregular migration (i.e. refugees) and displaced persons heading to Europe. (Article 155)
- The agreement will be policed by ‘the Authority’ – a new UK-based body with ‘powers equivalent to those of the European Commission’. (Article 159)
- The EU admits, in Art. 184, that it is in breach of Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty which oblige it to “conclude an agreement” of the terms of UK leaving the EU. We must now, it seems, “negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship.” And if the EU does not? We settle down to this Agreement.
- And, of course, the UK will agree to pay £40bn to receive all of these ‘privileges’. (Article 138)
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Foolsgo1d - 11-17-2018
And that doesn't include the tens of billions the EU demanded and were given earlier this year ^
If the vote were given to the public on whether to stay as the UK or as an EU state then the following should be put on the ballot.
1: Stay in the EU, dismantle Parliament, the House of Lords and install EU political office in Whitehall
2: Stay as a sovereign nation and reject foreign powers from ruling us - what England fought for close to a 1000 years previously.
Guarantee the deal would be flown through if you threatened to get rid of Parliament and the Lords if they were to lose their jobs and the buildings turned into museums.
"Here lies the birth place of British democracy"
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - N°6 - 11-18-2018
If the Spectator article was even 50% correct, surely May has broken some treason laws. It’s far worse than previous treaties.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Ski pro - 11-18-2018
I read this this morning and thought that why doesn’t the British just say ‘fuck you, we are leaving’. Come collect your money if you want but I very much doubt you’ll start a European war over staying in Europe.
The British have got themselves into a right mess with this. If they get the exit right the future will be good after an initial period of chaos. Unfortunately I’m not sure the country has the stomach for that.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Richard Turpin - 11-19-2018
Now that it has a new pro-remain editor, the Daily Mail has turned into the Daily ReMain. The about-face has been jarring, which the comments section of any recent Brexit article will attest.
With the loss of The Express too (bought by Mirror Group), the dead-tree media is almost entirely converged left.
Just in time for a possible 2nd referendum, disgustingly called 'The People's Vote', as if the people who have already voted don't count.
With the left wing controlling the media, old people (presumable Leavers) dying off since 2016, young people (presumably remainers) reaching voting age, remain-voting immigrants increasing in number each day, I reckon they are confident of success if a new vote gains momentum.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Praetor Lupus - 11-19-2018
This is the EU, time and time again. Watching them bully the Irish into signing the Lisbon Treaty was all that it took to convince me that I wanted out. Only that time it didn't take them as fucking long to get their way.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Leonard D Neubache - 11-19-2018
Quote: (11-18-2018 10:36 AM)Ski pro Wrote:
I read this this morning and thought that why doesn’t the British just say ‘fuck you, we are leaving’. Come collect your money if you want but I very much doubt you’ll start a European war over staying in Europe.
...
I was listening to a junior staffer for the UK government on the radio about a week ago and despite sounding like she had a gun to her head she kept going on and on about how the deal would allow for the continued supply(trade) of products from the EU that were vital to UK manufacturing.
It dawned on me that Brussels has basically told the UK that they will face what will functionally be an embargo on EU good necessary to keep the wheels of the UK from falling off. I also don't doubt that they made it clear they would strongarm other potential suppliers into treating the UK as a leper colony or they'd face the wrath of the EU as well.
May is trapped between a rock and a hard place. Someone with balls would simply do a national address and put all the cards on the table, but these days I barely doubt they'd be snuffed on the way to the studio. I don't even think they allow those messages to go live to air anymore. Even the extremely rare public broadcasts from a Prime minister are no doubt screened by the appropriate shadowbrokers and only aired once the thumbs-up is given.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Praetor Lupus - 11-19-2018
Quote: (11-19-2018 09:49 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:
It dawned on me that Brussels has basically told the UK that they will face what will functionally be an embargo on EU good necessary to keep the wheels of the UK from falling off. I also don't doubt that they made it clear they would strongarm other potential suppliers into treating the UK as a leper colony or they'd face the wrath of the EU as well.
May is trapped between a rock and a hard place. Someone with balls would simply do a national address and put all the cards on the table, but these days I barely doubt they'd be snuffed on the way to the studio. I don't even think they allow those messages to go live to air anymore. Even the extremely rare public broadcasts from a Prime minister are no doubt screened by the appropriate shadowbrokers and only aired once the thumbs-up is given.
I agree.
There is no other explanation for May standing in front of the nation and telling us, with a straight face, that the 'deal' is the right one for the country. To say it isn't remotely credible on any level would be like saying that Everest is a sizeable geographic feature.
The EU is fragile and if May had the balls she'd tell the EU to go fuck themselves and see how long they would last trying that shit.
Thatcher, Trump, Churchill and Wellesley would have laughed them out of the fucking room, but this is what happens when someone weaker than their opponent is in charge.
Nothing will happen. May will survive any vote of confidence, and that's if it even comes, because the letters required still aren't at the magic 48. Our only hope is that this bill is voted down in Parliament.
Fuck the EU, fuck anyone who supports the EU in the full knowledge of what it's about, and fuck weak bastard leaders.
I want this piece of shit organisation to burn so I can piss on the ashes, and watch the individual nation states rise to throw off the shackles and prosper, individually and together.
If I haven't already made it clear, Fuck. The. EU.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Handsome Creepy Eel - 11-19-2018
Quote: (11-19-2018 09:49 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:
products from the EU that were vital to UK manufacturing.
... like what? That seems hard to imagine.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Matsufubu - 11-21-2018
The EU would refuse to sell to the UK? Torpedo their own economies? I can't see it. China, India, USA, anyone would jump at the chance to replace the EU as sellers to the UK. We're not exactly inconsequential to the EU economies. How would their governments stay in power with their own businesses tanking - would their directors and workers go "Oh well, we're all out of a job, but it's worth it to teach those bloody Tommies a lesson!"
It has to be more subtle than that. We're too big to bully...but May and her craven cabinet aren't. That's my concern.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Foolsgo1d - 11-21-2018
Remember these days lads. There arent even 48 members to trigger a no confidence vote let alone get our arses out of this Federal superstate shithole. And then we have that UN migration pact in December ready to turn every illegal migrant into a future British citizen.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Bienvenuto - 11-21-2018
This is a global class war.
Indigenous Brits are inconvenient to the oh so holy movement of peoples with taxpayers money. They are to be crushed.
By enlisting the jack-booted white collared 'liberal' class to demonise anything that stands in the way of 'progress' - the world becoming one gigantic shop.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Polniy_Sostav - 11-22-2018
Guys , never forget that the EU has not started its autocratic and oppressive phase. Good luck and support to real English who want to stay out of this cucked organization.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Foolsgo1d - 11-23-2018
I kinda like this guy but how long his channel will last is anyones guess. Can always upload it to other sites.
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - Bucephalus - 12-18-2018
Articulate, moving, and with threads of British wit and humour woven throughout:
"JRM is the best PM we haven't got"
UK Referendum on EU Membership (Brexit) Thread - gework - 12-22-2018
Got a few boys I'd like to refer to the forum. What do you think?