Stated differently:

If you are broke, you will come up with ways to sound Alpha about why a bitch better not order any appetizers.

If you make some money, you'd actually not think twice about some appetizers while out having some drinks.

The broke guys need to make up some "rules" about "game" (despite not necessarily being the best role models about game that works) to make sure that they feel good about being over 30 years old and going Dutch on a date that has access to $10 appetizers.

Suit yourself. If you want to be the guy that goes to the cheesecake factory for drinks and expect zero appetizers then so be it, but realize that that is your crowd.

Quote: (10-05-2014 03:50 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

Quote: (10-05-2014 11:13 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

But it definitely is a shit test, and a subtle form of disrespect. It's an attempt to hijack the interaction and make it about food. Decent chicks don't do this shit. My deflection methods used to be (and still are) the following:

Quintus summarizes this perfectly. This isn't about money. It's that buying someone you barely know food--when that wasn't the plan or the offer--is bad game. Period. The very rare exceptions--the girl is a (skinny) diabetic or you just know within 10 minutes that she's going to be the mother of your children--are just that, rare. I'm frankly astounded that buying a strange girl food merely because she wants it doesn't ring as problematic to so many of you. This is a weak frame. She's calling the shots instead of you. Do you also let her pick the venue?

The idea that you "scare the cat" by not giving into its demands is also silly. Not to mention that the cat thing is a daygame metaphor. At night, it's not about not scaring a timid cat; it's about not getting barreled over by an emboldened chick throwing shit tests at you with impunity, with full knowledge that dozens of dudes are swiping right on her Tinder even as you speak. As several posters have correctly noted, good chicks don't generally pull this shit. Only spoiled, entitled chicks who are used to extracting extra free stuff from dudes will do this, as will general tire kickers, time wasters, and sport daters. The only way to get a chick like that in line is redraw what Quintus aptly termed "boundaries." Remember: these are large children asking for a happy meal. But instead of a tantrum, she's silently holding the pussy for ransom. Do you give in?

Stop. Feeding. These. Hoes. You not only hurt yourself. You hurt all of us. With every girl getting free meals (because, let's face it, an appetizer or two is a meal for the type of chicks we're going out with), we raise the cover charge of a basic (pre-bang) first date.

I'm astounded at how outraged someone can be at needing to adapt and order a few appetizers on the fly. No, she doesn't get to pick the venue. I pick the venue. That would be bending frame.

Freaking out about the tab creeping up a bit while having a good time?...well, that is a man not in control of his lifestyle. That is losing frame.

I just remembered one other thing to my earlier Post #98, above. I actually got out of bed to write this...this thread really fired me up. (I'm getting flashbacks of beady-eyed Americhicks clutching laminated menus and talking shit).

You can relax the "no appetizer" cautionary rule in most non-Anglo countries. It's culturally expected in many countries...go with the local custom.

But here in the USA, as Tuthmosis said, "stop feeding these bitches."

@QC - wouldn't it be easier to bifurcate into: 1) if you make little per year year then "Team No Appetizers", and 2) if you make more than average "Don't Give A Shit About No Chicken Wang"!???

Seriously, if "Team No Appetizer" becomes a rule...you are truly giving shitty advice to the brotherhood of the game community. We should all adapt to the circumstances of what you have available to yourself.

Don't impose this poverty mindset on others. Appetizers? Really? What a joke.

I think of lifestyle game as being more about the connections you have, your interesting social circle, the cool venues that you know and are known at, the travel stories that you're able to tell, etc., rather than being about being able to pay for appetisers or some other shit. I mean, if that's a part of lifestyle game then every guy on the street has lifestyle game, or can for at least one day a week.

Taking her to a venue you like and ordering drinks and appetisers for you both is one thing, and I imagine would be the way that G Manifesto types would go about it. On the other hand having a girl ask for an appetiser when you're out having drinks just strikes me as rude.

Personally, I don't really encounter this issue because I rarely go on dates, both because I don't do online and because I don't really enjoy them (would rather go out drinking with friends and try and find new girls). I do meet up with girls, but it's much more casual; I do most of my gaming at a local university student union bar, or at other bars nearby, so I usually just send a text along the lines of 'I'm out tonight, are you?', or loosely arrange to meet some evening when we're both out when we first meet.

Quote: (10-06-2014 03:04 AM)anonymous123 Wrote:  

@QC - wouldn't it be easier to bifurcate into: 1) if you make little per year year then "Team No Appetizers", and 2) if you make more than average "Don't Give A Shit About No Chicken Wang"!???

Seriously, if "Team No Appetizer" becomes a rule...you are truly giving shitty advice to the brotherhood of the game community. We should all adapt to the circumstances of what you have available to yourself.

Don't impose this poverty mindset on others. Appetizers? Really? What a joke.

If they brought a friend along uninvited, would you suggest buying both of them drinks and food as well?

This is not about being cheap, it's about not letting a woman take control of the plans.

If you want food, get it. Rules are made to be broken.

But telling a woman 'no' when she acts up is not something I will ever stop doing.

I don't think this has anything to do with being "cheap" or not or being "broke" or not. That's missing the point entirely.

Girls don't really want food at night in Russia, but they will hint that they want you to get them a taxi home sometimes (can be up to $30). I avoid giving them this if I haven't hooked up with them, but I do always walk them to the metro.

It's also very important how they ask for these small things...her saying to you "I want to get this appetizer...looks so yummy!!!" is a lot different than her asking you if you want something, or suggesting it may be nice to try something to share.

Quote: (10-05-2014 02:14 PM)Ice Wrote:  

Quote: (10-04-2014 11:33 PM)Deluge Wrote:  

I know a guy, very good looking, reasonably tall and charming with social circle with a lot of hotties, he's basically at the top of what people call the food chain. He complained to me once about how much money he spends on dates, especially since most of his girls never end up going anywhere. His typical date is taking a 7 or 8 out for the classic "dinner and a movie" dropping at least $60-$70 and the most he'd get is making out in his car while dropping them home, with no guarantee of seeing them again.

The interesting thing is that he told me his girls would never offer to split the bill, whereas on my (drink) dates most of the the time they will at least make the gesture. This confused me because like I said he is very good looking, not the type of dude you'd expect to be taken for a ride all the time. Meanwhile even when I've taken girls I actually like out for dinner and a movie on a later date, EVERY single time they have payed for the movie after I payed for dinner. I've never once had a girl try and pull the appetizer move on a drinks date either, I didn't know that was even a thing till I read this thread.

I think some dudes just give off the "nice guy" provider vibe that makes girls think of pulling this shit. These guys aren't getting most of their notches on the same night or first date either. You can use these guys for your own ends too. Often in the club I'll tell a girl to ask a random guy to buy her and her "friend" drinks, and then give me the other one. Most girls will pussy out, but if you get a devious one it can be a lot of fun.

Yes, that is very true. I knew a similar guy in NYC who got played by girls a lot. He was a good looking dude with style, from a very rich family. He got a very cool apartment - of course paid for by his parents. He was kind of a nice guy though and didn't have a killer instinct, because he never had to fight for anything and always got whatever he wanted. He told me that he was trying to hook up with models, but was often stuck with paying huge bills without anything happening. He actually told me that once he went out with a model and she brought her female friends along, and at the end of the night he was stuck with a bill of around $ 1000, and the girls just disappeared. But objectively this guy was very desirable - as I said, he was good looking, well dressed, rich, and had an amazing apt.

The good looking guy I was talking is also a very nice guy, genuinely nice to every single person he meets, the problem is when you're that nice you have have no "edge". One of my good friends is also very good looking, tall and a DJ. He's skinny as a tooth pick, but all he has to do is show up and hot girls fall over themselves for him. I can't take him with me when I go out because his looks inevitably end up stealing the hottest girls. Yet his notch count is a fraction of mine, and he's never had sex on the first date. These kind of guys have no edge, they're not dominant, they don't escalate hard or early and girls can't respect them. They can use their looks to attract quality girls, but they're slow to get the bang and they lose a lot of pussy along the way as girls realize and/or get sick of how much of a wimp they are. They're so "nice" that girls simply lose all attraction for them over time, even when he is much better looking than her. I actually set the same friend up with a 7 chick friend/wingwoman because I knew they found each other attractive, and just to see what would happen. I gave them 2 months before his wimpyness dried her pussy up like the Sahara. It took only took 1.

So what do you guys on the team say if your date asks nicely for a snack?

What is there's no mention of you paying for it?

Do you go through the steps of clarifying you will not be buying her appetizer the second she picks up the menu? How can you do that tactfully?

I say if you do you're drying the pussy right up on the spot but if there's other techniques I'd like to hear.

The most important point here I think is that if you have to spend money on girls to get somewhere you are doing it wrong. As a concept. Several dates and meals is doing it wrong. A date or two where you cover minor expenses (since you chose the right dates) is doing it right.

However that's not to say I don't like to look after the girls that I enjoy. Although it has to be within reason. It's just about not being cheap but at the same time not being an overwilling provider wallet.

Either extreme is anti-game, whether that is lifestyle on one end or having game skills to attract women without relying on $ on the other.

@anonymous123:

I can tell you're getting hung up on all this "money" and "cheap" distraction. That tells me:

1. You're not reading what I've been saying carefully.
2. You harbor secret doubts about some of your interactions in the past, and I've struck a nerve

How many times do I have to say it? This is not about money, this is about not being imposed upon. This is about YOU controlling the interaction. Nothing kills the vibe quicker than a situation where she is getting too comfortable sitting at a table, feeding her face and peppering you with bullshit questions. The focus is on YOU, not on a plate of tapas.

If the situation calls for it, and it's part of YOU painting your own picture for her, and it's part of YOU controlling the interaction, then buy a fucking plate of shit and munch on it. Fine.

What I'm cautioning guys about is something different. I'm objecting to situations where girl acts in an entitled way, takes control of the situation, and tries to lead. It's part of the whole picture. If ordering a plate of fried shit helps you lead the interaction back to your place, then fine.

The difference is subtle, but there is still a difference.

Quote: (10-06-2014 03:04 AM)anonymous123 Wrote:  

Don't impose this poverty mindset on others. Appetizers? Really? What a joke.

Don't impose your provider mindset on others. Not only is it a joke, but it prevents you from getting laid.

You're either a lover or a provider. There is no in between.

Quote: (10-06-2014 09:21 AM)BallsDeep Wrote:  

Quote: (10-06-2014 03:04 AM)anonymous123 Wrote:  

Don't impose this poverty mindset on others. Appetizers? Really? What a joke.

Don't impose your provider mindset on others. Not only is it a joke, but it prevents you from getting laid.

You're either a lover or a provider. There is no in between.

That's not true. There's a mile of grey area in the middle.

@ballsdeep

You're painting a wrong picture here though. You're making it seems as if you shouldn't ever spend money on/with a girl.

The key is to set the right frame.

Big difference if you're constantly spending money on girls to get somewhere.

You know you're doing it right when you pay for drinks and she either suggested to split the bill or she pays the next time you are out together, by her suggestion. Or when she does some kind of favour for you without you asking.

When she brings you food that she bought for the two of you.

When you sit down at a cafe with her and shes not making choices and is being passive, so its up to you to decide what she gets. I hope that last bit made sense.

I'm really confused by this whole appetizer thing. Why are girls even asking for food when you take them out for drinks? I've gone on countless dates and never once had this happen. How old are these girls who've done this to you guys? I only date 18-23 y.o's, maybe it's the older broads demanding guys pony up for food trying to fish for a provider? That's the only explanation that makes sense to me.

If girls are regularly asking you for food on the 1st date, when you barely know her and before she's proved her worth to you, then something is wrong with your game. Food is the anathema of horniness. If shes asking you for food on the first date out for drinks then she is not turned on, and will be even less so after she's done eating. This is especially true during night game. We all know that when you're going for the one night stand it is extremely difficult to get the bang after she's stuffed her face with late night street/fast food. This isn't an issue if you've already banged her before, but on the 1st date you'd have to be a moron to have her eat even if she's paying for it, this has nothing to do with money.

If you're trying to get the fast bang and she eats before you've fucked her, you're shooting yourself in the foot. This is not debatable.

Quote: (10-06-2014 02:28 AM)anonymous123 Wrote:  

If you are broke, you will come up with ways to sound Alpha about why a bitch better not order any appetizers.

If you make some money, you'd actually not think twice about some appetizers while out having some drinks.

The broke guys need to make up some "rules" about "game" (despite not necessarily being the best role models about game that works) to make sure that they feel good about being over 30 years old and going Dutch on a date that has access to $10 appetizers.

Suit yourself. If you want to be the guy that goes to the cheesecake factory for drinks and expect zero appetizers then so be it, but realize that that is your crowd.

For me this isn't about money. As I have made more money I have used money a lot less to game girls.

Girls have enough money and social options to go for drinks and food whenever they want. When they come to see me the underlining context is that we are meeting to fuck. That is it. We might watch a movie, go for a walk or cook at my place but we are going to fuck for sure. They know this before I even meet them for the first time. I imply it indirectly to start, but then increasingly directly, through whatever way we are communicating: tinder, text, phone calls or in person. They know I want them for sex and that anything else is extra. Its the underlining theme of every interaction.

Do I lose out on a few bangs? Ya probably but whatever. The girls I do get are solid and stick around for as long as I want them to. They like the simplicity of that dynamic and there is no games or drama. If you want to fuck then call over/invite me over, if not I will maybe see you some other time. They know that I see them primarily for sex, that they don't have to play any games with me and that they can enjoy that as much as possible.


If they mention feeling kinda sick I tell em get some rest and I go see another girl. If they are going out for drinks with some friends and I should totally join them I say have fun I will see you another time. Next girl.


Any hint of them trying to use their pussy for leverage or some possible drama on the horizon and I next them. I don't give out to them but they instantly lose my attention and have to work to get it back.

Sometimes I have called over to a girls and I hit some minor drama. They didn't mention some uni work they have to do or they are on the period. 'Cool but I got to go, I will see you sometime next week maybe'. They don't try that shit again too quick. Nowadays girls let me know when their period is and when it should be over without me asking. They know not to fuck around like that without me already knowing.

As a girl gets more solid and if she has been particularly nice I might start bringing her out for breakfast or calling over with some takeaway food. Usually I am coming right from the gym or if its breakfast I want a solid meal when we wake up together. Midday is for business and getting shit done so I rarely hang out with them during the day.

The reason for this is that I am a busy guy. I work for weeks out of town and don't have time for slow dinner dates or drinks (I don't drink hardly ever anymore anyway) when I am back around for only a few days. Either a new girl gives that pussy up FAST or I next them. I don't break full contact but I let them know that they will now have to wait till next time I am back. My time is premium. It isn't the $5 on finger food its the three hours of listening to nonsense that I have heard all before from another girl. I don't care - we fuck first and then see if we click later.

If they try some play when I first try meet them about me having to bring them for drinks or to meet them at club XYZ first they quickly find out that I won't. After the first time they know I am not bluffing. They won't hear from me again for 5-10 weeks. After the second time I drop them all together and wait for them to get back in touch.

Maybe I am delusional but I see myself as high value. I shouldn't have to go for drinks or on dates if I want sex. I am a smart, successful young guy in good shape that any girl would be lucky to hang out with. Any guy on here who follows all the advice on this forum should be in the top 1% of guys out there. I have a lot of things going for me and if they want to get to know me they better start with that pussy. I have been working towards that confidence for a few years now and I am starting to really feel it. Girls feel it too.

My priorities are work, business, gym, health, family and friends. I don't like to drink or give up chunks of my time for a girl that isn't a sure thing.

I usually keep them isolated from my other social circles too. They don't come to parties with me or social events. I want to be able to focus on friends or business any don't want to have to multitask entertaining them also.

Now when we hang I don't just fuck and leave. I have a lot of fun and enjoy their company but they know the underlining context and we are both happy with the setup.

So no I don't do dates as such any more - maybe a walk or coffee a few days before if they are extra nervous or timid about calling straight over.

Again it isn't about money, its about not wasting my time for something I can get quicker with a lot less drama elsewhere. Feminism and pro sex education has dropped the price of pussy way down. I am simply demanding a bargain and they know they can't set the price with me.

Quote: (10-06-2014 10:00 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Quote: (10-06-2014 09:21 AM)BallsDeep Wrote:  

Quote: (10-06-2014 03:04 AM)anonymous123 Wrote:  

Don't impose this poverty mindset on others. Appetizers? Really? What a joke.

Don't impose your provider mindset on others. Not only is it a joke, but it prevents you from getting laid.

You're either a lover or a provider. There is no in between.

That's not true. There's a mile of grey area in the middle.

Yeah, I don't really know how this type of stuff can be so black and white. I can understand each point of view.

The "no snacks" guys are talking about women using men for drinks and food. I can understand where they are coming from up to a point. That point being, I would expect these guys to have figured this type of behavior out prior to going on a date.

I just take the interaction as they come. If I'm having a good time and one of us gets hungry I just order some food without really thinking about it.

If the chick is pushy and getting on my nerves, I bail quickly. If she brings up food I just tell her I'm not staying. I don't plan on wasting anymore time.

My main goal is to have a good time. I don't want appetizers cock blocking that happy time.

Quote: (10-06-2014 08:37 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

What I'm cautioning guys about is something different. I'm objecting to situations where girl acts in an entitled way, takes control of the situation, and tries to lead. It's part of the whole picture. If ordering a plate of fried shit helps you lead the interaction back to your place, then fine.

The difference is subtle, but there is still a difference.

I actually agree with this 100%. If you let her take control of the situation you lose.

I just haven't been in the situation in real life where I feel like it is bending my frame if someone orders something to munch on while having drinks. (and more likely that I've ordered something anyway - and yes, I still see the subtle difference here).

I'd be much more likely to feel like someone was trying to change up the situation if they asked for dinner menus. I just can't see myself getting butt hurt over the little happy hour appetizer menu sitting on the table...seems like part of the whole situation to me.

@Gringuito - I'm not advocating the "provider simp" approach. That doesn't work and I've seen it fail one too many times (you can spot it a mile away). But, I've actually done trial and error with the "I buy this round, you buy the next"...and it just feels weird to me. There was an earlier post by Hooligan Harry on this topic, and he basically just ended with "I have my own principles." That is where I'm at on this topic.

Quote: (10-06-2014 10:23 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

I'm really confused by this whole appetizer thing. Why are girls even asking for food when you take them out for drinks? I've gone on countless dates and never once had this happen. How old are these girls who've done this to you guys? I only date 18-23 y.o's, maybe it's the older broads demanding guys pony up for food trying to fish for a provider? That's the only explanation that makes sense to me.

If girls are regularly asking you for food on the 1st date, when you barely know her and before she's proved her worth to you, then something is wrong with your game. Food is the anathema of horniness. If shes asking you for food on the first date out for drinks then she is not turned on, and will be even less so after she's done eating. This is especially true during night game. We all know that when you're going for the one night stand it is extremely difficult to get the bang after she's stuffed her face with late night street/fast food. This isn't an issue if you've already banged her before, but on the 1st date you'd have to be a moron to have her eat even if she's paying for it, this has nothing to do with money.

If you're trying to get the fast bang and she eats before you've fucked her, you're shooting yourself in the foot. This is not debatable.

What if the date lasts 4 hours? Nobody will get hungry?

Quote: (10-06-2014 10:40 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Quote: (10-06-2014 10:23 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

I'm really confused by this whole appetizer thing. Why are girls even asking for food when you take them out for drinks? I've gone on countless dates and never once had this happen. How old are these girls who've done this to you guys? I only date 18-23 y.o's, maybe it's the older broads demanding guys pony up for food trying to fish for a provider? That's the only explanation that makes sense to me.

If girls are regularly asking you for food on the 1st date, when you barely know her and before she's proved her worth to you, then something is wrong with your game. Food is the anathema of horniness. If shes asking you for food on the first date out for drinks then she is not turned on, and will be even less so after she's done eating. This is especially true during night game. We all know that when you're going for the one night stand it is extremely difficult to get the bang after she's stuffed her face with late night street/fast food. This isn't an issue if you've already banged her before, but on the 1st date you'd have to be a moron to have her eat even if she's paying for it, this has nothing to do with money.

If you're trying to get the fast bang and she eats before you've fucked her, you're shooting yourself in the foot. This is not debatable.

What if the date lasts 4 hours? Nobody will get hungry?

Who the hell spends 4 hours at the bar on a first date? I follow the same script on all of mine. I meet my girl at 9pm at the city square, walk em to my chosen bar and spend 1.5-2 hours there before going for the pull.

If you guys are meeting these girls earlier in the evening and spending 4 hours at bars with them then I can see why they're demanding food from you, but neither of those things are conductive to 1st date bangs so you shouldn't be doing them anyway.

4+ hour dates are normal. Pick her up like 8 or 9. Warm up with 2 drinks at a low key place. Bounce to spot 2. Most places don't get kicking til at least 11 or 12. Guys here make it sound like they meet for water, drop zero coin and 20 minutes later bounce to the crib to fuck. Nigga please

Quote: (10-06-2014 10:45 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

Who the hell spends 4 hours at the bar on a first date? I follow the same script on all of mine. I meet my girl at 9pm at the city square, walk em to my chosen bar and spend 1.5-2 hours there before going for the pull.

If you guys are meeting these girls earlier in the evening and spending 4 hours at bars with them then I can see why they're demanding food from you, but neither of those things are conductive to 1st date bangs so you shouldn't be doing them anyway.

First, no one said anything about a woman demanding anything. You are adding your own context here.

Now, your way of doing things, ie script, sounds pretty damn boring to me. I prefer to have some fun and doing the same thing over and over again is not fun to me.

@worldwidetraveler
I do what's proven to give me the maximum chance of getting the 1st date bang, which is the most fun you can have on the first date after all If the girl is actually interesting to talk to (which is rare anyway), I won't get bored. Demanding is a strong word but that's what it sounds like is going from reading this thread. When you meet a girl at night for drinks, it is implied that you're not going to be eating.

Quote: (10-06-2014 10:48 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  

4+ hour dates are normal. Pick her up like 8 or 9. Warm up with 2 drinks at a low key place. Bounce to spot 2. Most places don't get kicking til at least 11 or 12. Guys here make it sound like they meet for water, drop zero coin and 20 minutes later bounce to the crib to fuck. Nigga please

There's a huge difference between 20 minutes and 2 hours. Spending 4 hours at bars on the 1st date is a bad idea, it makes her less likely to go back to your place because she'll be getting tired and might want to call it a night. 1.5-2 hours on the other hand is too early for her to be tired, if she likes you at all she'll want to keep the night going. Also, why are you taking girls to places that are "kicking" for a date? You want something relaxed and not busy so you have as much privacy and intimacy as possible. My favourite date bar is empty on weeknights and has these little pod shaped booths that face out a window, so it feels like we're completely alone there together. You want to minimize distractions so you can focus 100% on each others company not people partying next to you. No one said anything about not paying for drinks either...

Some of you guys need to go back and revisit Tuth's First Date Bang Recipe.

Quote: (10-06-2014 10:54 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

@worldwidetraveler
I do what's proven to give me the maximum chance of getting the 1st date bang, which is the most fun you can have on the first date after all If the girl is actually interesting to talk to (which is rare anyway), I won't get bored. Demanding is a strong word but that's what it sounds like is going from reading this thread. When you meet a girl at night for drinks, it is implied that you're not going to be eating.

If it works for you than it works. Nothing wrong with that but doing the same thing over and over again wouldn't work for me. Maybe I just get bored easily.

As far as what is implied when going out, I think the only thing implied is having a good time. Whether that be drinks, banging or sushi all depends on the interaction that happens. I guess I am more of a go with the flow type of guy. I enjoy being social, talking to everyone and just having fun. The whole idea of going out just to get laid is sort of a foreign concept for me so there is probably that disconnect.

Quote: (10-06-2014 11:06 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Quote: (10-06-2014 10:54 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

@worldwidetraveler
I do what's proven to give me the maximum chance of getting the 1st date bang, which is the most fun you can have on the first date after all If the girl is actually interesting to talk to (which is rare anyway), I won't get bored. Demanding is a strong word but that's what it sounds like is going from reading this thread. When you meet a girl at night for drinks, it is implied that you're not going to be eating.

If it works for you than it works. Nothing wrong with that but doing the same thing over and over again wouldn't work for me. Maybe I just get bored easily.

As far as what is implied when going out, I think the only thing implied is having a good time. Whether that be drinks, banging or sushi all depends on the interaction that happens. I guess I am more of a go with the flow type of guy. I enjoy being social, talking to everyone and just having fun. The whole idea of going out just to get laid is sort of a foreign concept for me so there is probably that disconnect.

And the fact it will probably take 200 dates to make that plan work one time.