Opinion from Veterans, what marks the different levels of game?

"If you did so and so you can consider yourself a veteran"
"If you can do so and so you can consider yourself an intermediate"

There's multiple factors, but here's a few off the top of my head for Veteran status:

-After you've successful pulled and slept with 100 girls (no paying, pure game) I would consider a veteran. To get to that level would put you in the top 5%, maybe higher, I'm terrible with math.

-When you can go out and pull 1 out of 3 nights with CONSISTENCY.

-When you can break down what you do and how you do it.

-When you have more advice to give, then a need for advice on game and girls.

-When you have developed the instinct to know what girls are DTF within 5 minutes of walking in a bar just by reading girls body language and their communication with everyone else.

-When you have gone through the fire of LTRs and emerged smarter and better for it. Lots of guys go through bad LTRs and simply fold up and 'die', lose their game completely (what game they had), or resort to solely P4P.

When you stop counting.

When you can't remember the girls you banged and their names.

The quality, quantity, and skill of bedding women marks a player's progress. I don't believe in hard and fast rules for judging a player.

High quantity alone isn't too good if you're just banging fatties.

Also, I'd be more impressed with a guy who gets 20 bangs from Saudi Arabia than a guy who gets 100 bangs in NYC.

If you can get a woman to leave a venue within 20 minutes of meeting her or less, then you're probably in the veteran category.

There's also the issue of men with strong passive game, such as extraordinary looks or fame. These guys don't need as tight a game to get laid. So even if they get more sex with more women, it doesn't mean he has exceptional game.

Finally, a guy can be very alpha yet stuck in a shitty situation with no money (abusive family, for example) so his notch count may not be reflective of his actual abilities.

It's not too hard to be in the top 20% of men (what I'd consider to be veteran) because most men are awful with women.

Herpes

Quote: (06-17-2014 01:38 AM)Christian McQueen Wrote:  

There's multiple factors, but here's a few off the top of my head for Veteran status:

-After you've successful pulled and slept with 100 girls (no paying, pure game) I would consider a veteran. To get to that level would put you in the top 5%, maybe higher, I'm terrible with math.

I think this is the best rule of thumb. Its enough different experiences/exposure to really see the patterns in behaviour and the differences between your successes and failures.

If you sleep with a 100 girls through game you know what you are doing and how it was done.

I don't believe that game proficiency should be measured objectively because then it loses the point of game being a lifestyle of freedom and personal mastery of life and becomes an enslavement to some useless foreign frame. If you say you need for example 100 lays from game to be a veteran then you turn game into a sport. Many good things are degraded by turning them into a sport for instance martial arts lose efficiency when they stop being tools for survival and dominance and become a sport with rules, banned moves, limited environmental consideration etc.

Instead of trying to achieve a certain number or lay frequency to "count" as a player of a certain level you should measure your success subjectively here are the possible answers you need to answer to yourself:

Have you become happier?

Have you become more confident?

Are you the supreme alpha of your social circle or are there many competitors?

Do you feel sexually satiated most of time (objective numbers on sex frequency are useless because different men have different libido's and different priorities)

Are women the focus of your life or are you the focus of their life?

Do you waste less resources on women then before? Do you spend more resources on women then they spend on you or vice versa?

How often do you still feel lonely, miserable and unwanted?

Have you reached inner piece?

Are there still women you consider out of your league?

Are there still many situations where you are too afraid,r feel to unworthy or have no know-how to approach a girl you like?

Do you still have enough stressors in your life that inhibit you from dropping bad habits you want to get rid of?

Do you have enough time off from social expectations to peruse your hobbies?

Do you have healthy hobbies that provide personal growth outside of chasing women?

Have you completely abandoned all bitch emotions, freak-outs and other feminine expressions weak beta men tend to adopt?

Do you view the hypergamous and childish nature of women as a good thing that is created such for your pleasure, your ability to connect to them and your birthright to lord over them? Or do you view it bitterly as an obstacle that forces you to step out of your comfort zone?

Do you see world as a good and just place or do you feel it is dark and miserable?

Are you at peace with your reproductive children/no-children strategy?

Can you make women fulfill your phantasies or is there something you dream about or watch in porn that you are afraid to ask?

There is no need to go out of your way to get 100 or any other number of lays to prove your status. You should have your own desires and standards to measure up against.

Quote: (06-17-2014 01:38 AM)Christian McQueen Wrote:  

There's multiple factors, but here's a few off the top of my head for Veteran status:

-After you've successful pulled and slept with 100 girls (no paying, pure game) I would consider a veteran. To get to that level would put you in the top 5%, maybe higher, I'm terrible with math.

-When you can go out and pull 1 out of 3 nights with CONSISTENCY.

-When you can break down what you do and how you do it.

-When you have more advice to give, then a need for advice on game and girls.

-When you have developed the instinct to know what girls are DTF within 5 minutes of walking in a bar just by reading girls body language and their communication with everyone else.

-When you have gone through the fire of LTRs and emerged smarter and better for it. Lots of guys go through bad LTRs and simply fold up and 'die', lose their game completely (what game they had), or resort to solely P4P.

This sounds way to easy for the veteran status as it does not say anything about the quality of girls. I match all these points but still consider myself a beginner, as the chicks have mostly been 6-7s.

Numbers are just numbers and get old pretty quick, even though they are obviously necessary, as you only grow through experiences...

I like the questions that Mage posted as good indicators.

'There is no need to go out of your way to get 100 or any other number of lays to prove your status. You should have your own desires and standards to measure up against.'

Correct but thats not what anyone is saying.

I never mentioned needing a 100 lays to define your life and happiness. Many people enjoy a satisfying life (sex and otherwise) who havnt gotten near this number. Im saying 100 lays is a 'good rule of thumb' to mark a game veteran. Someone who has crunched the numbers and gotten results.

100 lays is several hundred dates/meetups, its 1000s of hours in the club/online or on the street, its several 1000 hrs of texts, phone calls, flakes, approaches, hours in the gym, buying good clothes, eating right, working on logistics.

The results demand work and the work guarantees experience. It makes for veteran status.

You are defining something completely different.

Saying that a certain number of lays doesn't equal a certain player status, is like saying a guy can continue benching 150lbs and he's a body builder.

100 lays is a very good medium for gaging a player's prowess.

Show me a player who has bedded 100 women and I'll show you a player who knows what the fuck he's doing. Period.

Trophies aren't handed out to everyone. This isn't Little League.

Quote: (06-17-2014 04:16 AM)libertad1312 Wrote:  

Quote: (06-17-2014 01:38 AM)Christian McQueen Wrote:  

There's multiple factors, but here's a few off the top of my head for Veteran status:

-After you've successful pulled and slept with 100 girls (no paying, pure game) I would consider a veteran. To get to that level would put you in the top 5%, maybe higher, I'm terrible with math.

-When you can go out and pull 1 out of 3 nights with CONSISTENCY.

-When you can break down what you do and how you do it.

-When you have more advice to give, then a need for advice on game and girls.

-When you have developed the instinct to know what girls are DTF within 5 minutes of walking in a bar just by reading girls body language and their communication with everyone else.

-When you have gone through the fire of LTRs and emerged smarter and better for it. Lots of guys go through bad LTRs and simply fold up and 'die', lose their game completely (what game they had), or resort to solely P4P.

This sounds way to easy for the veteran status as it does not say anything about the quality of girls. I match all these points but still consider myself a beginner, as the chicks have mostly been 6-7s.

Numbers are just numbers and get old pretty quick, even though they are obviously necessary, as you only grow through experiences...

I like the questions that Mage posted as good indicators.

To be honest, I think that Christian's parameters are better/ more definitive. A lot of what Mage said is more mindset than results- I am just starting out in the game but can already fulfill almost everything he said. I think his list is just what every man should strive for, not so much in terms of game but just living their lives and enjoying it.

Delete (keep on topic)

Quote: (06-17-2014 04:22 AM)Christian McQueen Wrote:  

Saying that a certain number of lays doesn't equal a certain player status, is like saying a guy can continue benching 150lbs and he's a body builder.

100 lays is a very good medium for gaging a player's prowess.

Show me a player who has bedded 100 women and I'll show you a player who knows what the fuck he's doing. Period.

Trophies aren't handed out to everyone. This isn't Little League.

You do realize that the only trophies are in your head right? You get pussy but no third party ever gave me trophy for getting pussy.

No doubt that a player with 100 lays knows what he is doing. But does it mean that he automatically is a better player then the guy with 50 lays? Or that he is worse then a guy with 200 lays? I highly doubt that.

And off topic but some body builders lift in comparison very little weights and win competitions over bodybuilders who lift near power lifter - weights.

Why should we even define a players rank? Unless someone gives real trophies or prizes for hitting certain notch numbers it is pointless. The degree of personal satisfaction and freedom is all that matters.

^If the trophies comment went over your head, then anything else I say may possibly go over your head as well.

You're debating apples, when I'm talking oranges.

I agree with Christian on CONSISTENCY. It's akin to saying who a good scorer is in basketball.

Some guys do well in a full court offense but put a lockdown defender on them and they struggle.

If you can pull on 1 of 3 nights in different cities, then I would say that's a vet.

Quality of lizards matter too. Not saying that one has to get 10s..but if one is able to pull 1 out of 3 middle aged fatties then I think their status may need to be adjusted from vet to lower intermediate.

I mention different cities in order to introduce cultural differences as obstacles. A vet will be able to observe cultural differences and still pique sexual interests to make a lizard want to do the nasty with him.

An intermediate will be a king in his own circle and a pauper in others.

You have women leaving their shit at your place and don't remember who's hair ties/ribbons/other trinkets belong's to which girl.

Basically if you need a lost and found in your bedroom, you are probably a veteran player.

My wing has a WB open him at least one time each weekend we're out. Haven't asked him his notch count, and although those chick-opens don't always lead to a lay it's something I'm trying to shoot for in terms of looks (getting rid of small belly and jacked).

Quote: (06-17-2014 10:23 AM)eradicator Wrote:  

You have women leaving their shit at your place and don't remember who's hair ties/ribbons/other trinkets belong's to which girl.

Basically if you need a lost and found in your bedroom, you are probably a veteran player.

Haha. There is a shoebox in my closet that is filled with panties, bras, makeup, hairties, bracelets and other perfumed objects. Its packed to the brim.

Great for a laugh with my friends who are in relationships.

It seems like most vets on this forum have a definite style or niche they exploit. I'm still trying to find mine.

Christian, could you expand upon this a little more:

"When you have gone through the fire of LTRs and emerged smarter and better for it. Lots of guys go through bad LTRs and simply fold up and 'die', lose their game completely (what game they had), or resort to solely P4P."

Quote: (06-17-2014 01:38 AM)Christian McQueen Wrote:  

There's multiple factors, but here's a few off the top of my head for Veteran status:

-After you've successful pulled and slept with 100 girls (no paying, pure game) I would consider a veteran. To get to that level would put you in the top 5%, maybe higher, I'm terrible with math.

-When you can go out and pull 1 out of 3 nights with CONSISTENCY.

-When you can break down what you do and how you do it.

-When you have more advice to give, then a need for advice on game and girls.

-When you have developed the instinct to know what girls are DTF within 5 minutes of walking in a bar just by reading girls body language and their communication with everyone else.

-When you have gone through the fire of LTRs and emerged smarter and better for it. Lots of guys go through bad LTRs and simply fold up and 'die', lose their game completely (what game they had), or resort to solely P4P.

This one is very true. I would add quality, I must be picky, but I cannot fuck anything under a 7. Definitely not a veteran yet, but this is an actual evidence of a veteran. Others' opinions are more like self-assessment.

Quote: (06-17-2014 12:09 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

Christian, could you expand upon this a little more:

"When you have gone through the fire of LTRs and emerged smarter and better for it. Lots of guys go through bad LTRs and simply fold up and 'die', lose their game completely (what game they had), or resort to solely P4P."

LTR's either cause to you to develop even better game through Deep Conversion etc, or you turn into a beta bitch boy.

For multiple LTR's I would change once I was in them. It wasn't until I took a step back and realized that I was changing for the girl, that I was able to identify my mistakes, make the necessary changes and then move forward. Now I have mini-relationships along with harem management which is an entirely different level of game, but I believe for a man to be a well rounded player it's necessary for him to develop those aspects too.

A mark of a veteran true player is one who can see his mistakes on his own, fix them and be stronger for it.

Many guys become bitter and shut off ("I hate women!" types), lose their game (meaning they STOP gaming and become so rusty they don't know their head from their ass, or say fuckit and resort to P4P only.

Goldmund, how many new girls did you fuck last year?

I think that if you can bang one 9 every couple monthes that's more powerful than baging 5-6s every other night.

That said, there are guys I know who go out and are banging 6-8.5s and don't care about quality.. They just get laid as a lifestyle thing; game is just what they do. It's not a hobby or a job.. They just go out every night and I don't even know how they support themselves. But they understand how everything in the game works.. The can see the matrix.

This is how I catergorise beginner, intermediate and veteran players.

Beginner - up to 5 new notches a year, quality will be hit or miss (4-6).When you get a new notch you only see the girl a few times as either your game isn't good enough to keep them or the quality is too low to warrant you keeping them around. A positive outcome from an approach happens infrequently. If you get into a LTR as a beginner very easy to lose frame etc.

Intermediate - Up to 20 new notches a year. At this level you can manage a harem effectively so you can keep the girls you want around for an extended period of time guaranteeing regular sex. The higher quality girls 8+ will be still hit or miss but very rarely go below a 6. If you get into a LTR you can keep your frame and avoid losing frame etc. Intermediates may find it hard to game and bang chicks abroad.

Veteran - over 20 notches a year. Harem management excellent with the girls in it actively trying to stop you from fading/leaving. Higher quality girls 8+ are the norm with it being very rare that your standards slip. If veterans get into a LTR "deep conversion game" can be run to make a woman as loyal as she can possibly be as a woman. Veterans can easily go to most places in the world and still bang high quality girls and have a regular sex life.

Right on! According to the CMQ Index, I'm indeed a Vet with a score of 5/6! Boom Beyatches!

I can't say that I can check this box:
-When you have developed the instinct to know what girls are DTF within 5 minutes of walking in a bar just by reading girls body language and their communication with everyone else.

I've had too many times when I was sure that a chick wasn't DTF...only to have her come full circle on me after hanging out for a couple of hours (and I wasn't even trying...just wanting some good conversation).