http://www.rooshv.com/how-to-tell-a-girl-what-you-do

I try to figure out what would be a good answer for this question which I've been asked almost every time and I have a simple IT job.

Quote: (12-03-2015 05:16 AM)boets Wrote:  

http://www.rooshv.com/how-to-tell-a-girl-what-you-do

I try to figure out what would be a good answer for this question which I've been asked almost every time and I have a simple IT job.

If it's something that could ruin your image as a player, like engineering or any other dweeb profession, just lie your pants off.

"What do i do? You know that movie with Olivia Wilde where jeff bridges gets sucked into a computer? Like that, but sexier."

Tell her "Try guessing" and give her a hint. This will make her hamster spin and she'll either guess correctly or not. From there on you can easily divert the conversation to make her qualify to you, or even tease her. Here are some examples that come to mind:

- if she guesses correctly:
"...you're right, I do work in IT. It's funny that you guessed correctly, because you don't strike me as someone who can easily read other people."

- if she guesses correctly and she's open to being teased, and you're good at being cocky/funny:
"...you're right. How did you know? You're not stalking me, are you?" if she accepts the tease, laughs and says no, continue with something like "That's good, because I can definitely imagine you sitting in a white van at the end of my street, eating doughnuts and monitoring my every move."

- if she fails to guess correctly:
"...nope, wrong, I work in IT. It's funny that you didn't guess, because you strike me as someone who can easily read other people."

If you're in IT, just say you're a hacker. With a smirk.

I know RSD is not well-liked around here, but I found that Julian's idea of saying "I raise cats" gets the conversation going. Basically I believe that in these situations I think you have to think "what would El Mech say?" (That should be a bumper sticker...) Say something ridiculous or weird-sounding or even outrageously un-masculine. See how long you can string her along and troll for a bit before disclosing the truth.

I'm still learning and I need to follow my own advice in this regard more often. I've been extremely guilty of answering questions in a direct manner out of habit, which makes you boring. Thats the scientist/engineer in me. The key is not taking yourself, your job, or her reaction to it seriously.

Once I almost told a girl I opened in the gym that I was a drug dealer when she asked, but then I chickened out at the last second. Turned out she worked in federal law enforcement.

I am not exactly astronaut or James Bond, so I always tell them that I am a homeless vagabond. That makes them smile all the time, cause normaly I wear nice shirts. Then it makes their hamster spin and they want to know more. So I continue with something like I came here to taste all the craft beers and sleep with all the beautiful women, all with just a small smirk. It sexualizes the convo and I know immediately if I should spend time trying to get them. Does not work always but I get pretty good results most of the time.

You don't have to immediately provide your resume to chicks but I will ignore that bit for now and gonna focus on the part where you actually communicate what you do.

Quote: (12-03-2015 05:18 AM)Jesus Christ Wrote:  

If it's something that could ruin your image as a player, like engineering or any other dweeb profession, just lie your pants off.

The way I read the above quoted post, this translates to: "in my current proficiency level, I am unable to game chicks with a non-cool-job"

Job matters as much as height, wallet, eye colour, or any other X matter. which is not much. It sucks only when one (as a person) suck at communicating to the prospect about one's job.
Those who cannot game have traditionally blamed the circumstances.
Those who can game, know how to turn pretty much anything to their advantage.

Back to the matter of jobs:
what does matter is your ability to present your job.
As mentioned in quoted post, if one suck at communicating what one does, lying is one way out of jail.
Learning how to efficiently and impressively present your choice of employment AND turning it to advantage is another and the preferred method.
This does not mean I AM A BANKER I GOT THE BIG BUCKS. MILK ME, USE ME ABUSE ME AND UPGRADE ME please.
It means I am a rock solid person in what I do, I am clear why I do it (my choice) and I won't take shit from none about it (just because I'm no rock star).

Tables turned, here is an example of two French chicks - for the visual/scorecard guys amongst you let me mention they're both 7s:

1. Aude HEZAISPOIR
"I am 21 and work at the local pub serving drinks all night 6 nights a week for the last 2 years. I have long hours, shitty horny customers to fend off all night and I hate this job! can we talk about something else now?!"

2. Aimée DAIZOME
"I am 21 and have been having great company and meeting new people 6 nights a week for the last 2 years at a hip pub. What I love most about this job is I get to meet so many different people. each new person feels like a new book to read, an adventure if you like with all these life stories. I love this job and would almost do it for free!! Sadly I'm gonna have to get a new job next year as I am starting college."

Some French page suggests reading the second name as “Aimée des hommes“—“beloved by men” - it's not hard to understand why.
They both provide age + current job + their feelings about it.
First one radiates negative energy so bad that it smells.
Second one is the person you wanna be next to.
It might not sound much from 2 lines of text but imagine this with the power of body language, Aimee's nice big smile all those energetic gestures when she's talking about the job and the way she meets new people all the time!

You wanna be next to Aimee not the autistic other one.
Growing up most girls want to be next to a rock star but they do get math classes and know the odds.
If you're a solid person, not shying about what you do, not trying to hide it behind cheap excuses, you can proudly say what you do.

tl;dr when communicating your job be positive, energetic, explain why you love it in particular what social aspect is good about it, how you help people, how they rely on you to function and you wouldn't change a thing. if you avoid your job and yourself, guess what she will avoid you even more efficiently!

^

Of course you could pull by telling her you have a nerdy job. But why do that to yourself? Why hinder yourself? Your profile and the idea she forms of who you are and what your life is like is crucial. The whole point of game is to improve your success rate as far as it will go.

Quote: (12-03-2015 01:25 PM)Jesus Christ Wrote:  

^

Of course you could pull by telling her you have a nerdy job. But why do that to yourself? Why hinder yourself? Your profile and the idea she forms of who you are and what your life is like is crucial. The whole point of game is to improve your success rate as far as it will go.

First, let me say I am not bashing you and welcome other ideas.

Essentially what I am saying is it would not hinder me or my chances were I to say I was <insert-geeky/nerdy-profession-here>. This limitation / this self-hindering / this negative impact whatever you wanna call it, exists on your mind - it is not a fact.

True game is indeed science of improving one's success rate - whatever success is to be defined by each gamer. To get successful, if you need to lie and say you're working at X company/employed in Y position/have Z profession then you have room for improvement there, wouldn't you say.

If you are really successful you take her from her routine and in to your life, which is positive, fun, adventurous, social, (when needed) reliable, and so on. She is going to want to be with you not because of your 8 hours a day away from her at X corporation but because the few hours you are together when you are just yourself.

Quote: (12-03-2015 01:35 PM)olive Wrote:  

Quote: (12-03-2015 01:25 PM)Jesus Christ Wrote:  

^

Of course you could pull by telling her you have a nerdy job. But why do that to yourself? Why hinder yourself? Your profile and the idea she forms of who you are and what your life is like is crucial. The whole point of game is to improve your success rate as far as it will go.

First, let me say I am not bashing you and welcome other ideas.

Essentially what I am saying is it would not hinder me or my chances were I to say I was <insert-geeky/nerdy-profession-here>. This limitation / this self-hindering / this negative impact whatever you wanna call it, exists on your mind - it is not a fact.

True game is indeed science of improving one's success rate - whatever success is to be defined by each gamer. To get successful, if you need to lie and say you're working at X company/employed in Y position/have Z profession then you have room for improvement there, wouldn't you say.

If you are really successful you take her from her routine and in to your life, which is positive, fun, adventurous, social, (when needed) reliable, and so on. She is going to want to be with you not because of your 8 hours a day away from her at X corporation but because the few hours you are together when you are just yourself.

You don't "need" to do anything. But telling a girl you are a bartender or work in nightlife creates the idea that you are a top alpha player. Naturally if you are an incongruent nerd, that doesn't work. But even if you are alpha, if you tell her you are programmer that lives for the code, you are fighting an uphill battle. First thing she thinks is that there are no women in your life. Or that you live in your mum's basement. She forms conclusions about who you are, even if your behaviour is right. Naturally you could pull, but the odds of success would certainly be much lower. So don't hinder yourself.

Quote: (12-03-2015 03:28 PM)Jesus Christ Wrote:  

Quote: (12-03-2015 01:35 PM)olive Wrote:  

Quote: (12-03-2015 01:25 PM)Jesus Christ Wrote:  

^

Of course you could pull by telling her you have a nerdy job. But why do that to yourself? Why hinder yourself? Your profile and the idea she forms of who you are and what your life is like is crucial. The whole point of game is to improve your success rate as far as it will go.

First, let me say I am not bashing you and welcome other ideas.

Essentially what I am saying is it would not hinder me or my chances were I to say I was <insert-geeky/nerdy-profession-here>. This limitation / this self-hindering / this negative impact whatever you wanna call it, exists on your mind - it is not a fact.

True game is indeed science of improving one's success rate - whatever success is to be defined by each gamer. To get successful, if you need to lie and say you're working at X company/employed in Y position/have Z profession then you have room for improvement there, wouldn't you say.

If you are really successful you take her from her routine and in to your life, which is positive, fun, adventurous, social, (when needed) reliable, and so on. She is going to want to be with you not because of your 8 hours a day away from her at X corporation but because the few hours you are together when you are just yourself.

You don't "need" to do anything. But telling a girl you are a bartender or work in nightlife creates the idea that you are a top alpha player. Naturally if you are an incongruent nerd, that doesn't work. But even if you are alpha, if you tell her you are programmer that lives for the code, you are fighting an uphill battle. First thing she thinks is that there are no women in your life. Or that you live in your mum's basement. She forms conclusions about who you are, even if your behaviour is right. Naturally you could pull, but the odds of success would certainly be much lower. So don't hinder yourself.

You are bogged down in your own negativity based on cliches and seem to be unable to imagine a software developer/programmer being highly successful in game.

Quote:Quote:

Naturally if you are an incongruent nerd, that doesn't work. But even if you are alpha, if you tell her you are programmer that lives for the code, you are fighting an uphill battle. First thing she thinks is that there are no women in your life. Or that you live in your mum's basement. She forms conclusions

In this part you're just talking about your fantasies (or fears if you are a programmer). This simply is not true based on several people I know. If the girl is a retard, she can immediately say "you're a nerd byeee" and walk away. That won't be a loss, it would be a win. In any other case overall picture does not simply happen due to occupation.

I *know* at least half dozen such guys, out frequently, social, skilled and living in abundance. This is not only possible, it is also very logical as the job promotes certain traits. Listed below is what I got from the first 'programmer traits' google hit. I am not arguing here theory based on a web article, I am merely using the list from article (as a supposedly well thought out list) of traits. number 6 is a killer amongst others.
1. Impressive technical skills
2. Willingness to learn
3. Debugging skills
4. Work environment match
5. Problem-solving skills
6. Passion for the work
7. Grace under fire
8. People skills
9. Laziness
10. A business perspective
11. Ability to plan
12. Ability to handle failure
13. Teamwork mentality
14. Willingness to research
15. Respect for deadlines

Most of these help make successful gamer. At least where I am. If your experience is different please don't claim universal fact - it is simply not correct. Also don't claim what women immediately think they just don't do that (you live in basement,you are an antisocial nerd etc.). That might have been the case in 70s but not today.

My problem with the IT/Programmer job is that as soon as women hear that I work in this field they consider me as a beta provider.

Quote: (12-03-2015 06:09 PM)boets Wrote:  

My problem with the IT/Programmer job is that as soon as women hear that I work in this field they consider me as a beta provider.

let me copy paste from another thread which is discussing friend zoning but is also applicable to this one we're discussing here:

Quote: (12-03-2015 05:29 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  

<snip>
Actually dudes friend zone themselves. It's their behavior/action (or even inaction) that causes her reaction. Friend zoning is just a consequence of our (it's happened to all of us) inability to maintain/ create the attraction...."tingles"
<snip>

Clearly Tapper gets it. Once again, here is the crucial bit:

Quote:Quote:

Actually dudes friend zone themselves.

It's not the woman friend zoning you - it's your style getting you in the box.
It's not the job beta/provider zoning you - it's your style getting you in the box.

It's how you communicate it and it's how you NOT communicate other things.
It's the behaviour not the one word my job is X sentence that gets you classified as such.

If you do all *other things* correctly there is no sane woman on earth that will classify you as beta/provider.
Don't buy her a drink if at club, mention early you're high maintenance, demo value, make fun of any other loser that might be around especially in club environment easy, BTW that dude might be a typical nerdy programmer (!) - once again it's the guy and his behaviour not the job that gets him into the box.

In summary work on other things, the programmer curse (lol) will go away.

If I were a programmer, I would start with the line that I live in my parents basement, I shower once a month etc, all the stereotypes. Saying it with perfect poker face or a smirk might work wonders. Plus you will not get any of those shit tests since you already told her you live in the basement etc. Together with the hacker idea above it is the best approach.

Olive while you have valid pts so do Boets and JC. Depends on the situation but...

If you have a boring job you want to avoid being put into the "boring" box in her mind at all costs. You'll almost never get out. You're better off saying "Im a fag, let's be friends" than be pegged as boring out of the gate.

Unless you're a bonafide rockstar, noted artist, NOT telling a girl exactly what you do is more effective for creating attraction for several reasons but mainly because attraction is a visceral response. Your job instantaneously creates an impression of you

Mysterious+challenging+confident+funny from you ="Tingles" in her

(Above are just a few of the emotional ingredients)

"Tingles"=potential=attraction

Reality (again unless you're famous or have really cool career) well...

Reality < "potential" ...every time


If you have an interesting hobby you can lead with that (and I have several and so sometimes do) but I enjoy making a game of not answering any questions, by new chicks, directly it and have used it to great effect. It backfires sometimes sure...

Here are a few

Examples (A lot of these are borrowed from multiple sources and some are my own)


Girl "What do you do?"

PT " What do I do?

(pick one and run with it accordingly. Be prepared to pivot* away from the issue if you need to )

I climb buildings, base jump off and then remodel train stations in my spare time

I translate ethnic slurs for Cuban refugees

I write award-winning operas for the deaf.

I invented Thirty-Minute Brownies that you can cook in twenty minutes.

I am a stucco artist

I volunteer for the Peace Corps and last assignment with only a hoe and a large glass of water, I once single-handedly defended a small village in the Amazon Basin from a horde of ferocious army ants.

I play bluegrass cello,

I design and build large suspension bridges in China

I'm urban hang gliding pilot but on Wednesdays I repair electrical appliances for the elderly free of charge.

I am an abstract artist.

Im an award winning floral designer and my arrangements have earned me fame in
international botany circles.

On weekends, to let off steam, I participate in full-contact origami.

I breed prize-winning clams.

The trick is be confident ant have fun with it

Pivot* Learning to "pivot" conversations is a great way to solve any topic "challenge" such as job (for me its age). It's also a great tool for handling shit tests. I'm working on datasheet for it and hope to get around to finishing it soon

Oh yeah, being an engineer just dries the panties right up.

I can't be the only one wondering why this JC guy hasn't been banned yet, right? He's subtle - I'll give him that. And the mods have only so much time. But he's clearly trolling us....

EDIT: sorry, the quoting is not working on my phone.

Quote: (12-03-2015 05:16 AM)boets Wrote:  

http://www.rooshv.com/how-to-tell-a-girl-what-you-do

I try to figure out what would be a good answer for this question which I've been asked almost every time and I have a simple IT job.

There are a lot of ways to handle this.

But you need some nuance. Just rattling off a stock reply isn't right for every situation.

Ask yourself

1) What kind of player do I want to be?
2) What kind of image do I want to have?

and on a more practical side,

3) When does this question come up during the first meeting?

____________________

Let's just deal with #3 before we get to 1 and 2

1) She asks you immediately what you do
- she's a gold digger or she's just mean

Tell her that you're in "Private Equity", and then turn around and next her.

If she tries to re-open you after you've dismissed her, the balance of power has changed. She may have follow up questions, but be dismissive of her and don't answer.

You could replace PE with, "I was engineer #13 @ Instagram" and then turn around.

You want to act like you're offended at the question, and she's rude to ask. (which she is).

Once you have her trying to seek rapport, go into qualification.

"Can you cook"
"Can you clean"
"How big are your hands" - and then put your hands up so that she can measure them. *touch barrier broken!*

2) She asks you what you do in the first few minutes of the chat
- It could just be a polite "making conversation" sort of question.
- She could also be digging for gold
- Your answer is a good way for her to disqualify you in her mind

This is the danger zone as you don't really know what she wants to do with the information. ....

So let's just assume the positive. As wrong as it may be. Assuming the negative will make you stop chatting.


3) You've been chatting a while and she *seems* in to you

So the chick is open, you've made her laugh.
Maybe you've done some people watching.

A) Soft pedal and run game

You - "I'm in tech, and you?"
Her - Marine Biologist
You - "Oh you're a marine biologist, so like Jacques Cousteau...what'd you think of Sea World..."

However she felt about your disclosure is quickly swept away by you riffing on what she says.

B) Play the game of "guess" - dudes above have described it

c) Turn the tables -

You - "I love this question, because it always tells me what kind of girl I'm dealing with..."

And from there you can start on chicks who have no imagination, and then broadcast your imagination, and then challenge her to have some.

There are tons of ways to turn it around, if this is the strategy you like, you can come up with others.

d) Neg/Insult/Tease

"Seems work is never over, I tell dumb people how to fix their problems"

*then look at her with a smirk*

e) Roll up your sleeves, make a muscle, and look her dead in the eye,

"Tech support baby"

There are millions of ways to answer this question - but the main thing you have to understand is that you don't need to answer the question the way and manner that she is accustomed to.

Indeed, the whole point of being a player is that you're constantly running the show.

f) Are you asking me where I work, what pays the bills, what I am about, or who I am?

And just go existential.

4) The chick is definitely in to you, and now she's seeking rapport.

GIVE IT TO HER. Denying rapport to a chick that's seeking it is a sure way of talking yourself out of the pussy.

"I've got the best job ever..." and then excitedly describe your job.

And from there you can easily lead into, "You're really smart, you should totally get into IT, IT'S AMAZING. We could start a company together. I get to be Steve Jobs you can be the Woz...wait how do you look in a turtleneck..."


There are tons and tons of ways to deal with this question (and any "test')
______________________________________________

Now back to 1 and 2

In pick up, the answers themselves aren't particularly important - it's the power play and the back and forth. Super crisp answers are nice to have, but you won't always have them.

That's okay though.

Keep in mind that chicks don't really listen to everything word for word. They just get the vibe that you give and go with it. So give them a vibe that you want to give them.

If you want to be a straight up player, it's all about figuring out how to push her buttons. So you use the conversation is a springboard for anything. Make her laugh, sad, jealous, angry, happy.

If you want to be more of an "alpha" style player, you don't really care what she thinks of what you do. And by not caring about her reaction, many chicks are intrigued by a man who cannot be swayed by a woman.

WIA

In Juggler's book on game, he talks about answering that question. He recommends that you paint a picture with words about what you do.

Example (this is me paraphrasing, not directly from the book):

For a computer programmer: You know when you go to your bank's website to move your money around? I make that work.

@Tigre - yeah basically rather than focusing on NAMING THE JOB you focus on presenting the benefits - it's a good tactic and is in every marketing 101 course/ebook/video.
they say: don't sell the house - sell the dream.
in this case: don't sell the job - sell the value you provide.

be ready though - every now and then you will get the hardcore type hellbent on naming your job.

in Tigre's example, she'd come back: "SO YOU'RE THE IT GUY?? "
you will go about another tour not it's not like that I'm more like the solution architect, I designed the whole system: "SO YOU'RE THE PROGRAMMER??"
it's just waste of time as they're relentless with a lifetime experience on their back - no matter what you're gonna endup in one word.

"SO YOU'RE NOT GUNNA FUCK??" might be an option to respectfully exit the lovely conversation

I know this from personal experience. I studied engineering myself and lost a bunch of girls just from them learning about my job title. As somebody already mentioned, you get put into the beta provider box, and the girl imagines you are a total loser, to be used, not respected. I noticed a significant change in results when I changed my job title. Not to anything flashy, but at least to something that doesn't make you look like an incel.

This is my personal experience, and I trust it more than anything I read.

Quote: (12-03-2015 08:41 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Quote: (12-03-2015 05:16 AM)boets Wrote:  

http://www.rooshv.com/how-to-tell-a-girl-what-you-do

I try to figure out what would be a good answer for this question which I've been asked almost every time and I have a simple IT job.

There are a lot of ways to handle this.

But you need some nuance. Just rattling off a stock reply isn't right for every situation.

Ask yourself

1) What kind of player do I want to be?
2) What kind of image do I want to have?

and on a more practical side,

3) When does this question come up during the first meeting?

____________________

Let's just deal with #3 before we get to 1 and 2

1) She asks you immediately what you do
- she's a gold digger or she's just mean

Tell her that you're in "Private Equity", and then turn around and next her.

If she tries to re-open you after you've dismissed her, the balance of power has changed. She may have follow up questions, but be dismissive of her and don't answer.

You could replace PE with, "I was engineer #13 @ Instagram" and then turn around.

You want to act like you're offended at the question, and she's rude to ask. (which she is).

Once you have her trying to seek rapport, go into qualification.

"Can you cook"
"Can you clean"
"How big are your hands" - and then put your hands up so that she can measure them. *touch barrier broken!*

2) She asks you what you do in the first few minutes of the chat
- It could just be a polite "making conversation" sort of question.
- She could also be digging for gold
- Your answer is a good way for her to disqualify you in her mind

This is the danger zone as you don't really know what she wants to do with the information. ....

So let's just assume the positive. As wrong as it may be. Assuming the negative will make you stop chatting.


3) You've been chatting a while and she *seems* in to you

So the chick is open, you've made her laugh.
Maybe you've done some people watching.

A) Soft pedal and run game

You - "I'm in tech, and you?"
Her - Marine Biologist
You - "Oh you're a marine biologist, so like Jacques Cousteau...what'd you think of Sea World..."

However she felt about your disclosure is quickly swept away by you riffing on what she says.

B) Play the game of "guess" - dudes above have described it

c) Turn the tables -

You - "I love this question, because it always tells me what kind of girl I'm dealing with..."

And from there you can start on chicks who have no imagination, and then broadcast your imagination, and then challenge her to have some.

There are tons of ways to turn it around, if this is the strategy you like, you can come up with others.

d) Neg/Insult/Tease

"Seems work is never over, I tell dumb people how to fix their problems"

*then look at her with a smirk*

e) Roll up your sleeves, make a muscle, and look her dead in the eye,

"Tech support baby"

There are millions of ways to answer this question - but the main thing you have to understand is that you don't need to answer the question the way and manner that she is accustomed to.

Indeed, the whole point of being a player is that you're constantly running the show.

f) Are you asking me where I work, what pays the bills, what I am about, or who I am?

And just go existential.

4) The chick is definitely in to you, and now she's seeking rapport.

GIVE IT TO HER. Denying rapport to a chick that's seeking it is a sure way of talking yourself out of the pussy.

"I've got the best job ever..." and then excitedly describe your job.

And from there you can easily lead into, "You're really smart, you should totally get into IT, IT'S AMAZING. We could start a company together. I get to be Steve Jobs you can be the Woz...wait how do you look in a turtleneck..."


There are tons and tons of ways to deal with this question (and any "test')
______________________________________________

Now back to 1 and 2

In pick up, the answers themselves aren't particularly important - it's the power play and the back and forth. Super crisp answers are nice to have, but you won't always have them.

That's okay though.

Keep in mind that chicks don't really listen to everything word for word. They just get the vibe that you give and go with it. So give them a vibe that you want to give them.

If you want to be a straight up player, it's all about figuring out how to push her buttons. So you use the conversation is a springboard for anything. Make her laugh, sad, jealous, angry, happy.

If you want to be more of an "alpha" style player, you don't really care what she thinks of what you do. And by not caring about her reaction, many chicks are intrigued by a man who cannot be swayed by a woman.

WIA

It's not what you say.

It's how you say it.

--mobile quote begin--
Jesus Christ [2]I know this from personal experience. I studied engineering myself and lost a bunch of girls just from them learning about my job title. As somebody already mentioned, you get put into the beta provider box, and the girl imagines you are a total loser, to be used, not respected. I noticed a significant change in results when I changed my job title. Not to anything flashy, but at least to something that doesn't make you look like an incel.This is my personal experience, and I trust it more than anything I read.
--mobile quote end--

ima patent this mobile quote technique lol


JESUS CHRIST!! if you're hellbent on NOT LEARNING fine go ahead live your life thinking your engineering degree is a curse.

We are trying to explain it IS NOT THE FUCKING DEGREE but hey falls on deaf ears

Just be vague as hell and talk about the coolest aspects of the job. That's what I do. They can figure out the rest later. Easy.

As WIA said, you could have the coolest job in the world but if you convey it poorly you've done yourself a disservice. On the flip side, even if you have a boring job, there are ways to spin it in the right light. Girls like interesting guys. If you're a good storyteller or tale-spinner this comes much easier. If you aren't, become one.